British Expats
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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Rovers Return (https://britishexpats.com/forum/rovers-return-111/)
-   -   UK Migration has to stop (https://britishexpats.com/forum/rovers-return-111/uk-migration-has-stop-858596/)

Pistolpete2 Jun 14th 2015 10:11 pm
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 11675380)
Difficult to say. Higher rates would indeed impact affordability, but would also dampen investment. Housing benefit and housing associations seem a good route to social housing to me.
plus more progressive property taxes, but then we aren't looking at that under the present administration, in fact on the contrary, since one's residence, no matter what value, might soon be removed from inheritance tax...ation.

Editha Jun 15th 2015 12:06 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser (Post 11675365)
So, if the people who bought their house under right to buy sold their house back to the council, then the council could reduce the waiting lists by renting it out to others. Brilliant !!. Now where do the people who sold their house back to the council live?

If the population increases by 'x' then the housing stock has to increase pro rata. It hasn't, and to go all the way back to the Thatcher years as your primary excuse for the housing crisis is way too simplistic.
It is you who is being simplistic. The effect of Thatcher's 'reforms' was that new council house building, which had been tens of thousands annually, dried up to a trickle. The private sector failed to compensate with commensurate growth (a failure of Thatcher's scheme that was apparent right from the start).

Tirytory Jun 15th 2015 12:20 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Editha (Post 11675291)
Agreed. The housing crisis has been created entirely by Thatcher's housing policies. When she came to power there was no housing shortage and enough houses were being built each year to cope with additional demand. Since she came to power, the supply of new houses has never met demand, and the crisis has been building year by year.

It has almost nothing to do with immigration. The areas of the country where there are housing shortages do not correlate to the areas where there are large immigration populations. The possible exception is London, but to suggest that immigration is bad for London is to fundamentally misunderstand how the city functions.
This!

Trying to get my son back into a local good school is near impossible. High immigration? Not in these areas...it's purely due to government selling off land to private builders building more family homes placing even more demand on already stretched services.

They are still trying to do it with one of the schools in my preferred location but this time with the actual school playgrounds. Thankfully the parents have successfully boycotted it for the time being.

Nothing to do with immigration..

Bud the Wiser Jun 15th 2015 12:23 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Editha (Post 11675487)
It is you who is being simplistic. The effect of Thatcher's 'reforms' was that new council house building, which had been tens of thousands annually, dried up to a trickle. The private sector failed to compensate with commensurate growth (a failure of Thatcher's scheme that was apparent right from the start).
How long ago was this? Anything changed since then? Different government for a few years maybe? What did they do about it? Nothing perhaps? Has the population increased since then? How far do you want to go back? Blaming Hitler for destroying a few houses perhaps?

So let's be simplistic. Too many people, not enough housing. Simples.

TheEmperorIsNaked Jun 15th 2015 5:01 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Fantastic!! I read this thread title and wondered if I was going to read post after post of 'blame it on the migrants'.
Gawd what a relief! It becomes tedious to make them the whipping boys.

...............and it was Thatcher who destroyed affordable rentals, as she destroyed so many other things, and instilled the value of greed and self interest.

Pleasant woman. May she RIP's.

Giantaxe Jun 15th 2015 5:23 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Editha (Post 11675487)
It is you who is being simplistic. The effect of Thatcher's 'reforms' was that new council house building, which had been tens of thousands annually, dried up to a trickle. The private sector failed to compensate with commensurate growth (a failure of Thatcher's scheme that was apparent right from the start).
I agree. The UK, through local councils, used to build about 100,000 "social" houses a year. Now housing associations build around 20,000 a year. That's quite a shortfall on the supply side.

BritInParis Jun 15th 2015 6:24 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
25 years of Conservative, Labour and Coalition governments have failed to build anything like the number of houses - whether private or social - to keep up with demand. NIMBYism and treating your home as a retirement fund has had a far greater ill effect than Thatcher by this stage.

Bud the Wiser Jun 15th 2015 6:42 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
She left office 25 years ago. Get over it. Since then we've had, Tory, labour and coalition governments who haven't made any attempt to reverse the policy. It's those same governments that have encouraged unstainable immigration. To say that there is less social housing and not admit that encouraging more people into the country, people who probably would need that type of housing to get on their feet, is not adding to the housing crisis, defies belief.

Sort the infrastructure out first, or at least have ongoing plans to do so, before implementing a SENSIBLE controlled immigration policy.

(posted before I saw Brit in Paris post - sorry )

Giantaxe Jun 15th 2015 6:59 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 11675802)
25 years of Conservative, Labour and Coalition governments have failed to build anything like the number of houses - whether private or social - to keep up with demand. NIMBYism and treating your home as a retirement fund has had a far greater ill effect than Thatcher by this stage.
Thatcher did one thing right and that was to remove the deductibility of mortgage interest, a deduction that inevitably had pushed up house prices in the face of other policies that reduced the supply of new housing.

And now we have a government whose first time buyer schemes will merely do the same thing absent supply side policies. In fact, if they go ahead with giving renters of housing association properties the right to buy, they will reduce supply even more.

Bud the Wiser Jun 15th 2015 7:15 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 11675829)
Thatcher did one thing right and that was to remove the deductibility of mortgage interest, a deduction that inevitably had pushed up house prices in the face of other policies that reduced the supply of new housing.

And now we have a government whose first time buyer schemes will merely do the same thing absent supply side policies. In fact, if they go ahead with giving renters of housing association properties the right to buy, they will reduce supply even more.
No, it will move one house from the public sector and place it in the private sector. The number of houses will still be the same, and more importantly the demand for housing will still be the same, regardless.

Giantaxe Jun 15th 2015 7:28 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser (Post 11675842)
No, it will move one house from the public sector and place it in the private sector. The number of houses will still be the same, and more importantly the demand for housing will still be the same, regardless.
You are failing to consider the possible impact on housing association's future ability to build, which was the point I was making regarding the supply side:

And right-to-buy might reduce incentives to build anew, given the likelihood that new property will be sold off on the cheap. In the 1980s new council builds “pretty much disappeared” after right-to-buy was introduced, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, a think-tank. Housing associations claim that being forced to sell assets under the Tory plan will blunt their incentives to build, too.
Of course the Cameron government claims that it will ensure one-for-one building of replacement housing, but how can one credibly believe that when that hasn't been the case since Thatcher's right to buy policies were introduced a quarter of a century ago?


The right to buy… votes | The Economist

Shard Jun 15th 2015 12:12 pm
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser (Post 11675842)
No, it will move one house from the public sector and place it in the private sector. The number of houses will still be the same, and more importantly the demand for housing will still be the same, regardless.
It will reduce the supply of 'affordable' housing, causing further housing grief for those who cannot afford market rates.

Bud the Wiser Jun 16th 2015 9:07 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 11676067)
It will reduce the supply of 'affordable' housing, causing further housing grief for those who cannot afford market rates.
So tell me, where would the people who bought the house through 'right to buy' live if the property remained 'affordable' housing?

As for housing associations not being able or willing to invest in more housing because of right to buy, I don't know. It would be interesting to see a detailed pros and cons analysis to see what ROI would be the best option for further investment.

Granted Thatcher should have allowed councils to be able to invest a larger percentage from the original right to buy policy, however, we've drifted far away from the OPs post.

If you accepted that their has been an 'affordable' housing crisis since the Thatcher era, then it does not make any sense to add to the 'housing grief' by increasing the population. Sure they might add to the economy, sure ( I hope ) one day the infrastructure will catch up, but for now many, many people will suffer due to inadequate forethought.

I'd talk about transportation overcrowding, but I'm sure Beeching would be the scapegoat. :)

Shard Jun 16th 2015 9:43 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser (Post 11676895)
So tell me, where would the people who bought the house through 'right to buy' live if the property remained 'affordable' housing?
The point about affordable housing is that it is a layer of accessible housing for those that are on low income. A good example would be a young family on low income who cannot afford or qualify for a mortgage, they live in the affordable housing for several years until the income progression (or other circumstances) are such that they are able to purchase a property. At that point they affordable housing becomes vacant again and available to another family of reduced means. Granted that some people never have the means to move on, but that is all the more the case for expanding supply rather than reducing it.

Bud the Wiser Jun 16th 2015 10:15 am
Re: UK Migration has to stop
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 11676928)
The point about affordable housing is that it is a layer of accessible housing for those that are on low income. A good example would be a young family on low income who cannot afford or qualify for a mortgage, they live in the affordable housing for several years until the income progression (or other circumstances) are such that they are able to purchase a property. At that point they affordable housing becomes vacant again and available to another family of reduced means. Granted that some people never have the means to move on, but that is all the more the case for expanding supply rather than reducing it.
You didn't answer the question.

I understand the point about affordable housing.


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