You want examples of racism? I don't think people openly advertise that they are racist - but it's generally well known at least among my immigrant friends that people from English speaking Western countries are usually preferred over those from non-english speaking countries. That being said, even if you are from the UK you will still be second fiddle to someone from the US or Canada, at least in an employers eyes.

Again you just proved my point above. The system systematically discriminates against people with work experience that is not Canadian. For example to work in the UK as a doctor who trained in Canada until recently you didn't even have to write a single exam. You could just move shop. That is now changing with the EU laws (where EU citizens get first preference over everyone else), but at least there was no systematic discrimination against you just because you don't have UK training (look at all the Indian doctors working in the UK).

Canada on the other hand does not want people with training from overseas, they cry about a huge shortage of professionals, yet I know UK trained professionals (doctors, lawyers etc) driving cabs trying to make a living.

My experience is limited to Toronto where that simply is not true. Consider that more than half the population was born outside Canada and, of the remainder, a large proportion have parents who were born outside Canada and you can see that the person hiring is likely to be from a non-English speaking country. People do discriminate, Greeks against Turks, English against Welsh, Israelis against Palestinians and so on but that's a babel of hatreds imported from many lands; it's not the case that, say, a Iraqi-Canadian will necessarily prefer to employ someone from the US over someone from another country.

I suppose it's a form of discrimination to say that no one who does not have supervised medical experience in Ontario can practise medicine in Ontario but it's not specifically discrimination against immigrants, it equally discriminates against Canadian born plumbers and lawyers.

Look at all the Indian doctors working in Canada. I have one, myself. I think the system depends on them.

I certainly think Canada could import better cab drivers and should make an effort to do so. Qualifying as a doctor or engineer does not imply an ability to steer.

Having lived in Toronto myself, I don't really think you would know what a non Caucasian, non English speaking immigrant would go through. Of course you see tonnes of immigrants - most of them are working in places like Tim Hortons or McDonalds. Many of them would have been professionals or at least highly skilled in their countries of origin, yet their qualifications are not recognised. Your qualifications are obviously from the UK, and although you may not have undergone any discrimination that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Indian doctors that are working there, arrived in Canada in the 80s when the doors were a lot more open, and many got there via the UK, the qualifications of which were semi recognised at one point. Ask them how many years it actually took them to get a job in Canada and you'll find that it may have been years. Most either gave up or went to the US where it was much easier to get a job.

In terms of discrimination, I'm not saying it doesn't exist - I'm sure it's present in the UK, US or Australia as well. However places like the UK or Australia actually allow doctors from Asia to work for a certain amount of time before they have to write licensing exams, and once they pass those exams they are allowed to practise or at least given equal advancement opportunities to UK/Aus grads.

The same would hold true for most major post graduate professionals. As a pharmacist for example from the middle east in Canada you'd have to undergo at least 1000 hours of un-paid supervision, but to get that supervision you have to be a conditionally registered pharmacist! This of course requires 1000 hours of un-paid supervision. So the rules are put in place to make it extremely difficult for skilled/professional immigrants to work in their chosen professions.

Then of course there is the huge number of Canadian students who simply don't have many work opportunities in Canada. Jobs are very difficult to get even if you have a Canadian degree, because almost everyone graduated from University, or has done some sort of post graduate education.

Quite a few of my friends who graduated from Waterloo Engineering (the top Engineering school in Canada, and one of the top few in NA) couldn't even get jobs in Canada, and that was a time when the economy was booming. Many remained unemployed for 6 months due to their patriotism, and eventually all got jobs within weeks of applying to the US or UK.

What about trying to get into a decent post graduate program, like Medicine, Law, Pharmacy, Optometry etc? It's nearly impossible, unless you have a PhD or at least a 4.0 GPA + bucket loads of volunteer work. A lot of these students are going to places like the caribbean, the UK, Ireland and Australia to get their education so that they can work either in those countries or in the US. Some do return to Canada but most have realised that with a system like that it's just not worth putting up with the hassle for a mediocre quality of life.

My lawyer was born in Nigeria. My children's maths teacher in Algeria. Their Spanish teacher in France(?!) Their French teacher in the Belgian Congo. My doctor in India. My dentist in South Africa. I mostly drink with a Ugandan Asian who was educated in Germany. I don't think I deal with any other professionals but, if I do, I bet they're not from here. No one is from here. You must know that the standard conversation in Toronto starts "where you from?".

I have no qualifications. I have certainly experienced discrimination though none sanctioned by law.

I haven't looked at this thread for quite a while, so please don't think I have ignored the above statement.....and please do NOT feel sorry for me! I don't want pity from you or anybody else, thank you! And by the way, I have always appreciated the difficulty others experience when moving from their homeland to a different part of the world; the treatment they often receive is shameful. If you've read any of my other posts, you will see that I have often made this observation - and that it is unpleasant to be on the receiving end of it.
I don't think Canada is any worse, or better, than many other countries in its racism - it's perhaps more covert here. I had not personally experienced it when I lived here back in the 80's; this time my OH and I do experience it. Now it may be due to the fact that we live in a small rural town, inhabited by people who are set in their ways and suspicious of anything or anyone new. Maybe we're seen as a threat to their way of life - who knows. Whatever the reason it is a shame because it has spoiled things for us this time. I am quite philisophical about the situation, and can understand people's fears - I'm certainly not bitter about it - I'm saddened by it, but not bitter. And yes, I am lucky in that I can go back to the UK if I so choose.
I can't agree with your last paragraph as I've never knowingly stood or sat or worked beside any South Asian people to make a comparison. I worked alongside a lovely woman from India last year, and in my workplace there are several Chinese people, one or two Indians and at least one girl from Jamaica. From what I can see everyone is treated equally. Methinks you have quite a large chip on your shoulder.

I have just read through this thread; and this part of the forum and really wish I had made my hubby read it before we left the UK.

He, born in Canada, lived here till he was 12, then his mum took him to the UK. He has spent his entire adult life feeling that he didnt belong and want to get back here. Now, after 10 weeks he feels alienated, cant get work, and desperately trying to find a way back to the UK. His depression and guilt are overwhelming and the financial looses are crippling.

But now, having tried, all be it for a short time; at least we will never say "if only".

So it looks like we will be back in the UK by March; making it one year from when we originally signed up for this house, only to abandoned it to the realtor and pray, because the area is in recession.

An expensive experiment!

Hi there

I've read a few of your post on the Canada forum so I know you're having a rotten time at the minute and there's no easy solution. I really feel for you both.

My OH is also Canadian and moved to the UK when he was 14 with his mum and Northern Irish step-dad. We are planning to move back to the UK this year as Canada has never really felt like home for either of us. Mind you we've been here 8 years.

Sorry I have no words of wisdom I just hope you can find happiness and like you say at least you've given it a go. No country is worth loosing your mind or your marriage over.

Hey Manghams.......I TOTALLY sympathise with your situation. Mine was a similar one too back in 2004 in SW Ontario. My OH became depressed with his job, and taking him to the Dr in the hope he would suggest a course of anti-depressants, the Dr totally amazed me by telling my OH that if he was that unhappy in his job to just give it up! I explained to the Dr the consequences we faced if he gave up that job....my OH is an aircraft painter and there are not very many aircraft painting facilities in Canada, let alone in Ontario!! It was like the kiss of death! My OH did exactly what the Dr ordered and told me our only alternative was to sell the house and EVERYTHING we had built up in the 8 months we'd lived there. I had to watch the poor kids setting up a table top sale out on our driveway selling all the stuff they had bought with their money for birthdays and Christmas because it was either too bulky to come back with us, or was electrical and therefore, not UK compatible! I then became depressed at the thought of being dragged back to the UK and went back to the same Dr asking for help in a course of anti-depressants. While in the room, I burst into hysterical tears at how my life had turned around in the space of 1 month and the b*st*ard stood there and (I kid you not) laughed at me at which point I totally flipped!! Anyway, I got the meds, let them take their action and got into house-selling mode. We arrived back in Manchester in December 2004, living at my parents 3 bed house while we tried to decide on where we were going to live. Unfortunately for me, my OH was a very stubborn man in total denial that he was depressed and so he refused all attempts to go to our GP and get proper help. After living 8 months with relatives, I'd had enough and told him we either get back to Canada or split up! He chose to get better and give Canada another go. When we first arrived in Canada in 2003 we came over with $90,000 and by the time we came back for our 2nd stint, we only had $12,000....so I know how you feel regarding financial loss. We've been back here 2 and a half years and now it is my turn to want to throw the towel in. My emotions have taken the ultimate test in recent months with the loss of my father in law and the realisation that our family back home really are so important to us all. I am, though, feeling in a very different mindset that wherever we go, we will make a success of things. In 2 1/2 yrs, and starting with just $12K, we both have great paying jobs, 2 vehicles and bought a house last August. Anything is achievable - but I'm having a hard time getting that through to my hubby....he thinks it would be financial suicide to do it again.

I really do wish you all the best of luck in the move....you will get through this with the right mindset. As that crap Dr in Ontario told me "Don't resist the path of life, just go with the flow"

Rubes x

I am a little more worried about his mental health at the moment: I have never seen him so broken.. it almost makes we cry to think of it. Not only is he depressed and unhappy, missing family we left, but feeling bad those we have brought and are considering uprooting again; I think the guilt he is experiencing is crushing.

Sorry, your post made me cry, I guess it must be getting to me too. I will do what is necessary to get my husband well again; so a move back to the UK is on the cards, and yet again I will carry the emotional and practical load to achieve what is necessary.

1. I'm not expressing pity for you, only understanding, so don't worry you're not the recipient of my pity.

2. There is no chip on my shoulder, only some observations I and some of my friends have noted. Having lived in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada (and being Canadian) I think I'm at least somewhat qualified to make observations. They may be myopic to some, but I can only make observations with the dataset that I'm provided with.

Please try and encourage him to get proper medical help for his depression. An awful lot of men refuse to go to their doctor and seek help because it goes against the "manly image of being head of the household".....that is not the case. Men are human, like us women and they bear the same emotional loads of us women too. I truly believe once he has been prescribed the right medication, after 2-3 weeks, he will start to feel less "down". When my OH began his course of anti-D's back in the UK, he was at first suffering anxiety attacks and was on the verge of stopping them but we all encouraged him to see it through and just as we were advised, they "kicked in" and he began to see clearer. I hope your husband does the same, and once he starts to see things clearer, he won't feel the enormity of guilt at what he feels he's putting his family through. Get all your family members back home to rally round and give you all the support you need. It isn't the end of the world....you still have each other, and as long as this experience doesn't affect your relationship, then you'll get through this ok.

Orrre bless sweetie the hardest thing is making that discission.......Do we stay and battle it out or do we cut are loses and go ??? And know one else can make that for you. But once you have decided, the pressure lifts "Honest" .

Its not worth beating your self up over for years, that i do know. And your kids will soon fall back in with the Uk system......if thats what you choose.

Looks that we are going back; he has just come back in from visiting his relatives and is still focused on getting back. So I guess I'm calling shipping companies and booking flights tomorrow, sorting the realtor etc.. etc... etc... again - this almost feels like da ju vue!

Biggest problem we have is that my mum has already bought her flight 3rd March, coming for a month - we will probably be back in the UK by then. I dont think that the airline will let us transfer the ticket, so that is another loss. AND we havent told anyone in the UK yet that we are considering this!

Listen, take a deep breath and don't get in a panic! You don't have to book your flights and shipping just yet....you don't know how long it will take to sell your house. At this time of year, selling a house is slow no matter where you live - even in the UK. It could take weeks, maybe a couple of months to sell up. Your first step would be to get the realtors in for evaluation. Get at least 3 in for different valuations. As soon as you've got an offer on paper, then you can get all the shipping and flights booked as you can dictate on the length of time "to close" the deal. You could tell the buyers that you need 30 or 60 days to close and that will give you plenty of time to get your stuff sorted. You've got a very good source of information here on Expats and if you ever need us, just ask.

All the best,
Rubes x