Where to retire on Penang island
Nov 23rd 2013, 10:23 am
#31
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 21
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
Hi Pearl in Penang,
Unfortunately this is not the link I am looking for, it merely points to The Board of Valuers, Appraisers and Estate Agents Malaysia Code of Conduct and Ethics that I told you about in my original message (see #23, above)!
But let us assume Presgrave & Matthews are correct.
The issue then is that it is common practice in Penang for Estate Agents to charge 1% commission to both buyer and seller. The ‘going rate’ being a total of 2%.
From what I can see, if the buyer and the seller go into this split-fee arrangement willingly and with their consent, no one is being ripped off, nor are they being conned. That’s not to say I like it.
As I’ve said before, it makes little difference who pays the agent his 2% commission, buyer, seller, or 1% each. If the buyer refuses to pay his 1%, the agent will look to the seller to pay it, and the seller will increase the selling price of the property accordingly.
Your statement that there is ‘No such thing as Agent working exclusively for you’ is rather odd. When we were looking to rent a house for our first year (we subsequently bought) we engaged an agent to do exactly that. The agent set up appointments to view, drove us all over town, helped negotiate the rent, helped get the changes we required made to the Tenancy Agreement, and helped with the inventory check. She even bought us a microwave oven as a gift. I think it's fair to say the agent worked exclusively for us. Anyone can engage an agent here to work in a similar way to help them rent or buy a house, and many do so.
If you are buying a house in Malaysia and do consent to the split-fee arrangement, I think the thing to remember is that the agent will be looking to maximise his commission, so for the agent the higher the selling price the better. Ultimately the agent will typically be working in his/her own best interest. You can of course work around this simply by deciding what price you are willing to pay for the property including commission (say one million), and telling the agent if he gets you the property for one million including his commission you’ll buy it. And if he negotiates a lower price then he can keep the difference. What do you care? You get to buy the property for the price, including commission, that you want. That way the sellers’ agent is incentivised by you, the buyer, to reduce the price.
Frankly I think split-commission stinks. That’s why we looked around and asked around, and bought our property direct from the owner. With no agents fees paid by us or the seller, I believe we got a better price.
I cannot find any cases of Penang Real Estate Agents being prosecuted for charging 1% commission to both buyer and seller. Indeed it seems unlikely given that the split-fee arrangement is common practice in Penang. It appears most buyers and sellers here enter into this arrangement with their eyes wide open, and with their consent. Personally I would not agree to pay anyone a fee unless I had engaged their services in writing.
One of the things I have learnt in Penang, is that whilst there are plenty of rules, regulations and guidelines, many people don’t know what they are, and/or ignore them completely when it doesn’t suit them, or costs any money to adhere to them. This is especially so when it comes to property and building regulations.
Lastly, with respect, and without wishing to be rude, I think you are going a bit overboard with your underlining for emphasis. Many people, including me, find excessive underlining, and the use of bold and/or capital letters, annoying. I think that’s why few people on this forum do it.
JC3
Unfortunately this is not the link I am looking for, it merely points to The Board of Valuers, Appraisers and Estate Agents Malaysia Code of Conduct and Ethics that I told you about in my original message (see #23, above)!
But let us assume Presgrave & Matthews are correct.
The issue then is that it is common practice in Penang for Estate Agents to charge 1% commission to both buyer and seller. The ‘going rate’ being a total of 2%.
From what I can see, if the buyer and the seller go into this split-fee arrangement willingly and with their consent, no one is being ripped off, nor are they being conned. That’s not to say I like it.
As I’ve said before, it makes little difference who pays the agent his 2% commission, buyer, seller, or 1% each. If the buyer refuses to pay his 1%, the agent will look to the seller to pay it, and the seller will increase the selling price of the property accordingly.
Your statement that there is ‘No such thing as Agent working exclusively for you’ is rather odd. When we were looking to rent a house for our first year (we subsequently bought) we engaged an agent to do exactly that. The agent set up appointments to view, drove us all over town, helped negotiate the rent, helped get the changes we required made to the Tenancy Agreement, and helped with the inventory check. She even bought us a microwave oven as a gift. I think it's fair to say the agent worked exclusively for us. Anyone can engage an agent here to work in a similar way to help them rent or buy a house, and many do so.
If you are buying a house in Malaysia and do consent to the split-fee arrangement, I think the thing to remember is that the agent will be looking to maximise his commission, so for the agent the higher the selling price the better. Ultimately the agent will typically be working in his/her own best interest. You can of course work around this simply by deciding what price you are willing to pay for the property including commission (say one million), and telling the agent if he gets you the property for one million including his commission you’ll buy it. And if he negotiates a lower price then he can keep the difference. What do you care? You get to buy the property for the price, including commission, that you want. That way the sellers’ agent is incentivised by you, the buyer, to reduce the price.
Frankly I think split-commission stinks. That’s why we looked around and asked around, and bought our property direct from the owner. With no agents fees paid by us or the seller, I believe we got a better price.
I cannot find any cases of Penang Real Estate Agents being prosecuted for charging 1% commission to both buyer and seller. Indeed it seems unlikely given that the split-fee arrangement is common practice in Penang. It appears most buyers and sellers here enter into this arrangement with their eyes wide open, and with their consent. Personally I would not agree to pay anyone a fee unless I had engaged their services in writing.
One of the things I have learnt in Penang, is that whilst there are plenty of rules, regulations and guidelines, many people don’t know what they are, and/or ignore them completely when it doesn’t suit them, or costs any money to adhere to them. This is especially so when it comes to property and building regulations.
Lastly, with respect, and without wishing to be rude, I think you are going a bit overboard with your underlining for emphasis. Many people, including me, find excessive underlining, and the use of bold and/or capital letters, annoying. I think that’s why few people on this forum do it.
JC3
And sorry I cannot help you any further. I suggest you consult with a reputable Legal firm for your questions and I stand by what I already said. Also in our case, we got 2 real estate agents that worked exclusively for the seller.
If you yourself cannot find agents being prosecuted here - it does not mean it doesn't happen.
Also I know many expats who have been taken for a ride here.
Again, I suggest you consult with a legal firm. You may even get the Link you are looking for from them.
Best of luck.
Nov 23rd 2013, 12:32 pm
#32
¿uo buıob s,ʇɐɥʍ
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,762
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
Can anyone on this forum point me to a case where this has happened? I would expect it to be very big news in the Penang press, given that so many agents are doing it.
JC3
Last edited by JC3; Nov 23rd 2013 at 12:44 pm.
Nov 24th 2013, 1:56 am
#33
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 21
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
I totally agree. However it also does not mean that it does happen. My statement was very specific - 'I cannot find any cases of Penang Real Estate Agents being prosecuted for charging 1% commission to both buyer and seller.'
Can anyone on this forum point me to a case where this has happened? I would expect it to be very big news in the Penang press, given that so many agents are doing it.
JC3
Can anyone on this forum point me to a case where this has happened? I would expect it to be very big news in the Penang press, given that so many agents are doing it.
JC3
"so many agents are doing it" but many expats are totally unaware.
Nov 24th 2013, 3:23 am
#34
¿uo buıob s,ʇɐɥʍ
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,762
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
Again, you may want to check with a Legal firm for your question. In our case, the 2 Agents promptly refunded the money as I said and I guess in most cases, that would be the case - rather them find themselves in court- plus lose their license!
"so many agents are doing it" but many expats are totally unaware.
"so many agents are doing it" but many expats are totally unaware.
Thank you, I will ask my lawyer next time I visit him.
What I don’t understand is why you, or other expats, would pay an agent whom you didn’t engage, and with whom you had no written agreement. Nor why you did not check what the common practice is in Penang with your lawyer before commencing a property transaction and/or engaging an agent.
Had you asked your lawyer first, surely you would have decided either to pay the buyer’s 1%, or told the agent that he shouldn’t take commission from both parties and that you expected the seller to pay the full 2% not 1%.
It seems very naïve to me.
Just a little research before or on arrival in Penang would save some expats a lot of grief!
JC3
Nov 24th 2013, 4:17 pm
#35
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Living in Melaka, Malaysia
Posts: 472
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
If you don't mind me saying, JC3, (and as I think you mentioned in one of your own posts, without wishing to cause offence), you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about pearlinpenang as you have had a go in a couple of posts now. And then accuse the person of being naïve.
I have to say that Malaysia (in my own experience) is a rather different prospect to the U.K. and things are never as clear cut over here. As far as I can see, opportunism exists in large quantities here, and pretty much at every turn. Everyone is out to make what they can whenever they can for him/herself and in most cases, the Malays (and I include particularly the Chinese, but also the Indian and indigenous Malay population in that) will "try it on" at every opportunity, whether legal or not. In most cases, they don't seem to care what the legal position is..... a case, I guess, of shooting first (for that read "Let's see what I can get out of this situation") and worry about any possible consequences later. Do it enough times, and they will find someone who either a) doesn't want the hassle of a protracted court case; b) doesn't understand what the legal position is (which is what both pearlinpenang and yourself are trying to explain) or c) doesn't care about either a) or b) because they have got a good deal out of the situation anyway. I should say, though, that this evening restored some faith, and is a complete contradiction to what I have just written, in that an IT specialist spent between 6 and 8 hours backing up my laptop and restoring it to factory condition, and when I asked him "how much", his reply astonished me..... "No charge, Have this one on me". The gentleman in question is a Chinese/Malay. Of course, I will use this resource regularly from now on!
As far as I can see, most people on BE (and I include yourself and pearlinpenang in this category) try to be helpful and provide guidance from whatever knowledge they have - and long may that continue, because I, for one, both enjoy and appreciate the help and guidance that most people try to provide - generally without any benefit to themselves other than the hope, and perhaps expectation, that others may provide some help, suggestions, guidance or other means in areas they may not be so certain on.
I have certainly made an effort to provide the (admittedly small) benefit of my experience on occasion, to the chagrin of my wife who constantly asks me why I spend so much time on this site.... "is the BE website so important to you?" and "does BE pay the bills for you?". My response (certainly to the latter) is well, it might, you never know!
Of course in any given discussion, there will usually be disagreements and differences of opinion - but there are ways of expressing those, perhaps in a different vein to the way that your opinion has come across. Pearlinpenang has apologised at least twice on this thread and personally, I would have thought that to be sufficient. In fact, if I may pick up on one of your points "....and with whom you had no written agreement" personally, I find that an incredible statement, because certainly in Melaka (again, in my experience), it seems to be very difficult to actually get any agreement in writing - admittedly I have not (please excuse the underscoring, as I know you are not a fan, but I have used this for emphasis) yet had the pleasure of appointing either a lawyer or an Estate agent - and it seems to be the exception rather than the rule here.
The mods may deem this post to be moving the discussion about retiring in Penang off thread, but I think my motive is genuine, in support of one who is trying to provide help. Others, of course, may not agree (and by the way, despite the adage in my signature, I am actually sober!).
I have to say that Malaysia (in my own experience) is a rather different prospect to the U.K. and things are never as clear cut over here. As far as I can see, opportunism exists in large quantities here, and pretty much at every turn. Everyone is out to make what they can whenever they can for him/herself and in most cases, the Malays (and I include particularly the Chinese, but also the Indian and indigenous Malay population in that) will "try it on" at every opportunity, whether legal or not. In most cases, they don't seem to care what the legal position is..... a case, I guess, of shooting first (for that read "Let's see what I can get out of this situation") and worry about any possible consequences later. Do it enough times, and they will find someone who either a) doesn't want the hassle of a protracted court case; b) doesn't understand what the legal position is (which is what both pearlinpenang and yourself are trying to explain) or c) doesn't care about either a) or b) because they have got a good deal out of the situation anyway. I should say, though, that this evening restored some faith, and is a complete contradiction to what I have just written, in that an IT specialist spent between 6 and 8 hours backing up my laptop and restoring it to factory condition, and when I asked him "how much", his reply astonished me..... "No charge, Have this one on me". The gentleman in question is a Chinese/Malay. Of course, I will use this resource regularly from now on!
As far as I can see, most people on BE (and I include yourself and pearlinpenang in this category) try to be helpful and provide guidance from whatever knowledge they have - and long may that continue, because I, for one, both enjoy and appreciate the help and guidance that most people try to provide - generally without any benefit to themselves other than the hope, and perhaps expectation, that others may provide some help, suggestions, guidance or other means in areas they may not be so certain on.
I have certainly made an effort to provide the (admittedly small) benefit of my experience on occasion, to the chagrin of my wife who constantly asks me why I spend so much time on this site.... "is the BE website so important to you?" and "does BE pay the bills for you?". My response (certainly to the latter) is well, it might, you never know!
Of course in any given discussion, there will usually be disagreements and differences of opinion - but there are ways of expressing those, perhaps in a different vein to the way that your opinion has come across. Pearlinpenang has apologised at least twice on this thread and personally, I would have thought that to be sufficient. In fact, if I may pick up on one of your points "....and with whom you had no written agreement" personally, I find that an incredible statement, because certainly in Melaka (again, in my experience), it seems to be very difficult to actually get any agreement in writing - admittedly I have not (please excuse the underscoring, as I know you are not a fan, but I have used this for emphasis) yet had the pleasure of appointing either a lawyer or an Estate agent - and it seems to be the exception rather than the rule here.
The mods may deem this post to be moving the discussion about retiring in Penang off thread, but I think my motive is genuine, in support of one who is trying to provide help. Others, of course, may not agree (and by the way, despite the adage in my signature, I am actually sober!).
Nov 24th 2013, 11:51 pm
#36
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 21
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
If you don't mind me saying, JC3, (and as I think you mentioned in one of your own posts, without wishing to cause offence), you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about pearlinpenang as you have had a go in a couple of posts now. And then accuse the person of being naïve.
I have to say that Malaysia (in my own experience) is a rather different prospect to the U.K. and things are never as clear cut over here. As far as I can see, opportunism exists in large quantities here, and pretty much at every turn. Everyone is out to make what they can whenever they can for him/herself and in most cases, the Malays (and I include particularly the Chinese, but also the Indian and indigenous Malay population in that) will "try it on" at every opportunity, whether legal or not. In most cases, they don't seem to care what the legal position is..... a case, I guess, of shooting first (for that read "Let's see what I can get out of this situation") and worry about any possible consequences later. Do it enough times, and they will find someone who either a) doesn't want the hassle of a protracted court case; b) doesn't understand what the legal position is (which is what both pearlinpenang and yourself are trying to explain) or c) doesn't care about either a) or b) because they have got a good deal out of the situation anyway. I should say, though, that this evening restored some faith, and is a complete contradiction to what I have just written, in that an IT specialist spent between 6 and 8 hours backing up my laptop and restoring it to factory condition, and when I asked him "how much", his reply astonished me..... "No charge, Have this one on me". The gentleman in question is a Chinese/Malay. Of course, I will use this resource regularly from now on!
As far as I can see, most people on BE (and I include yourself and pearlinpenang in this category) try to be helpful and provide guidance from whatever knowledge they have - and long may that continue, because I, for one, both enjoy and appreciate the help and guidance that most people try to provide - generally without any benefit to themselves other than the hope, and perhaps expectation, that others may provide some help, suggestions, guidance or other means in areas they may not be so certain on.
I have certainly made an effort to provide the (admittedly small) benefit of my experience on occasion, to the chagrin of my wife who constantly asks me why I spend so much time on this site.... "is the BE website so important to you?" and "does BE pay the bills for you?". My response (certainly to the latter) is well, it might, you never know!
Of course in any given discussion, there will usually be disagreements and differences of opinion - but there are ways of expressing those, perhaps in a different vein to the way that your opinion has come across. Pearlinpenang has apologised at least twice on this thread and personally, I would have thought that to be sufficient. In fact, if I may pick up on one of your points "....and with whom you had no written agreement" personally, I find that an incredible statement, because certainly in Melaka (again, in my experience), it seems to be very difficult to actually get any agreement in writing - admittedly I have not (please excuse the underscoring, as I know you are not a fan, but I have used this for emphasis) yet had the pleasure of appointing either a lawyer or an Estate agent - and it seems to be the exception rather than the rule here.
The mods may deem this post to be moving the discussion about retiring in Penang off thread, but I think my motive is genuine, in support of one who is trying to provide help. Others, of course, may not agree (and by the way, despite the adage in my signature, I am actually sober!).
I have to say that Malaysia (in my own experience) is a rather different prospect to the U.K. and things are never as clear cut over here. As far as I can see, opportunism exists in large quantities here, and pretty much at every turn. Everyone is out to make what they can whenever they can for him/herself and in most cases, the Malays (and I include particularly the Chinese, but also the Indian and indigenous Malay population in that) will "try it on" at every opportunity, whether legal or not. In most cases, they don't seem to care what the legal position is..... a case, I guess, of shooting first (for that read "Let's see what I can get out of this situation") and worry about any possible consequences later. Do it enough times, and they will find someone who either a) doesn't want the hassle of a protracted court case; b) doesn't understand what the legal position is (which is what both pearlinpenang and yourself are trying to explain) or c) doesn't care about either a) or b) because they have got a good deal out of the situation anyway. I should say, though, that this evening restored some faith, and is a complete contradiction to what I have just written, in that an IT specialist spent between 6 and 8 hours backing up my laptop and restoring it to factory condition, and when I asked him "how much", his reply astonished me..... "No charge, Have this one on me". The gentleman in question is a Chinese/Malay. Of course, I will use this resource regularly from now on!
As far as I can see, most people on BE (and I include yourself and pearlinpenang in this category) try to be helpful and provide guidance from whatever knowledge they have - and long may that continue, because I, for one, both enjoy and appreciate the help and guidance that most people try to provide - generally without any benefit to themselves other than the hope, and perhaps expectation, that others may provide some help, suggestions, guidance or other means in areas they may not be so certain on.
I have certainly made an effort to provide the (admittedly small) benefit of my experience on occasion, to the chagrin of my wife who constantly asks me why I spend so much time on this site.... "is the BE website so important to you?" and "does BE pay the bills for you?". My response (certainly to the latter) is well, it might, you never know!
Of course in any given discussion, there will usually be disagreements and differences of opinion - but there are ways of expressing those, perhaps in a different vein to the way that your opinion has come across. Pearlinpenang has apologised at least twice on this thread and personally, I would have thought that to be sufficient. In fact, if I may pick up on one of your points "....and with whom you had no written agreement" personally, I find that an incredible statement, because certainly in Melaka (again, in my experience), it seems to be very difficult to actually get any agreement in writing - admittedly I have not (please excuse the underscoring, as I know you are not a fan, but I have used this for emphasis) yet had the pleasure of appointing either a lawyer or an Estate agent - and it seems to be the exception rather than the rule here.
The mods may deem this post to be moving the discussion about retiring in Penang off thread, but I think my motive is genuine, in support of one who is trying to provide help. Others, of course, may not agree (and by the way, despite the adage in my signature, I am actually sober!).
Nov 25th 2013, 12:08 am
#37
¿uo buıob s,ʇɐɥʍ
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,762
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
If you don't mind me saying, JC3, (and as I think you mentioned in one of your own posts, without wishing to cause offence), you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about pearlinpenang as you have had a go in a couple of posts now. And then accuse the person of being naïve.
Thanks for your post and the ticking-off.
JC3
Hi Linda,
If I have caused you any offence, it was not intended, and I sincerely apologise. I am known to call a spade a spade. Were we to have had the same discussion face-to-face rather than online I would hope that I would appear more friendly. Sorry.
JC3
Last edited by JC3; Nov 25th 2013 at 12:13 am.
Nov 25th 2013, 12:31 am
#38
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2013
Location: Penang
Posts: 326
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
Pearlinpenang is just being helpful, of which I had the pleasure of talking to her over the phone.
No offense to anyone, but I dont think she earn anything by giving that advise.
No offense to anyone, but I dont think she earn anything by giving that advise.
Nov 25th 2013, 1:44 am
#39
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 21
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
Nov 25th 2013, 1:50 am
#40
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 21
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
Hi Bluenose1,
Thanks for your post and the ticking-off.
JC3
Hi Linda,
If I have caused you any offence, it was not intended, and I sincerely apologise. I am known to call a spade a spade. Were we to have had the same discussion face-to-face rather than online I would hope that I would appear more friendly. Sorry.
JC3
Thanks for your post and the ticking-off.
JC3
Hi Linda,
If I have caused you any offence, it was not intended, and I sincerely apologise. I am known to call a spade a spade. Were we to have had the same discussion face-to-face rather than online I would hope that I would appear more friendly. Sorry.
JC3
Nov 29th 2013, 12:45 am
#41
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: Northern NSW
Posts: 85
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
The sad thing is that I cant think of any country in Asia where the kind of people bluenose1 describes arent waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting. There are some charming upsides to the corruption, though - being able to hand a total stranger your passport and a few Ringgit, return to the comfort of your hotel room, and pick up your passport the following day complete with a Thai tourist visa - beats the hell out of standing in an endless line in Singapore or Vientiane. I've done it a few times now, and while I admit to a little nervousness re my passport being 'lost' (!), I've been very happy with the results to date. Legally, if my passport did disappear, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and the day may come when they have to resort to faking the visas, its one occasion where dealing with a slightly shifty individual has worked to our mutual satisfaction. Would I buy property from the same gentleman ? No way 
Nov 29th 2013, 11:00 am
#42
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 21
Re: Where to retire on Penang island
The sad thing is that I cant think of any country in Asia where the kind of people bluenose1 describes arent waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting. There are some charming upsides to the corruption, though - being able to hand a total stranger your passport and a few Ringgit, return to the comfort of your hotel room, and pick up your passport the following day complete with a Thai tourist visa - beats the hell out of standing in an endless line in Singapore or Vientiane. I've done it a few times now, and while I admit to a little nervousness re my passport being 'lost' (!), I've been very happy with the results to date. Legally, if my passport did disappear, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and the day may come when they have to resort to faking the visas, its one occasion where dealing with a slightly shifty individual has worked to our mutual satisfaction. Would I buy property from the same gentleman ? No way
