gobbledonk

I disagree with your summation regarding retirement options in Thailand, and I believe you may have rose-colored glasses in relation to Malaysia, but given that I've made a similar choice (for different reasons), I'll leave it there.

Davita

I addressed my previous question because of the word 'oddly' used by IVV and wondered if everyone was aware that Indonesia is much like Malaysia, it is not a Muslim state/country, although the majority of the 240 million population of Indonesia are Muslim.
Bali, on the other hand, as JC3 has said, is predominately Hindu and is very spiritual and peaceful.
Most of the Malukas islands around Ambon are Christian as is the majority in Manado.
Suharto attempted a large de-centralizing of population many years ago from Java to 'Moslemize' the 'Spice Islands'....and caused a civil war. Many of my wife's Christian family perished. It is still, to this day, a thorny issue and prevents eco-tourism except for the adventurous...or perhaps foolish... as rioting explodes very easily.

Bluenose1

I stand corrected then, and offer apologies for my misunderstanding. Maybe we should let IVV explain the "oddly" comment?

InVinoVeritas

Sorry for the confusion I appear to have caused by my closing sentence.

I was simply trying to underscore the general misconception that Penang is seen as Muslim whereas Bali isn’t. Like Davita, I see quite a parallel between the two, both being part of Muslim majority countries yet both being non-Muslim majority states.

It would be interesting (for me at least) to understand gobblededonk’s comments about “rose-tinted glasses” concerning Malaysia and wonder if there is something I’m not aware of.

As far as Thailand is concerned I would see the following as supporting my comment about lack of support for foreign retirees:-

1. You do not have the right to buy any property unless it is in a majority Thai condominium.
2. The maximum visa is 1 year (actually an extension of stay followed by a re-entry permit) with obligatory reporting every 90 days.
3. Proof of €1,500 monthly income and €20,000 deposit every year
4. Spouse also needs to meet income and deposit criteria
5. No exemption from income tax on funds brought into Thailand
6. No automatic right to work
7. No automatic right to start a business

Now we all know that there are plenty of retirees in Thailand breaking one or more of these rules but I, for one, don’t want to spend my retirement in any uncertainty about my situation.

Whatever downsides there may be to living in Malaysia at least the MM2H scheme provides a degree of comfort and reassurance.

JC3

I would be interested too. Tell us more Gobbledonk!

I think IVV's comments about Thailand hit the nail on the head.

JC3

gobbledonk

1. AFAIK, that is correct, although many get around it by marrying a Thai - depending on who you listen to, that can be a blessing or a curse.

2. 1 year retirement visa - correct

3. Yes, there are financial requirements, albeit less than those in place for MM2H

Applicants aged 50 and above may comply with the financial proof of RM350,000 in liquid assets and off shore income of RM10,000 per month. For certified copy(s) of Current Account submitted as financial proof, applicants must provide the latest 3 months’ statement with each month’s credit balance of RM 350,000. For those who have retired, they are required to show proof of receiving pension from government approved funds of RM 10,000 per month

10K MYR is over 2300 Euro and 350K MYR is over 80K Euro : Thailand suddenly looks like a screaming bargain. The day after your retirement visa is approved, you can withdraw all of the 'deposit' from your Thai bank and invest it elsewhere, as long as its back in that bank 9 months later, assuming you want to stay in Thailand. That is not the case in Malaysia.

4. I dont know anyone living in Thailand with a non-Thai spouse - that's usually why most men choose Thailand in the first place. I'm sure high-roller execs work this one out when they take their wives to Thailand, but to date that is one problem that simply hasnt appeared on my radar.

5. Total news to me - do you have a link for this ? No shortage of retired expats living off savings and pension investments without paying a single baht in Thailand. Different story if you start earning money from a company based in Thailand, but I'm not aware of any attempt to tax retirement savings.

6. Which countries give you an 'automatic right to work' ? I know Cambodia is very lax in this regard, but I expect that will tighten as more foreigners move there. Thailand is much tougher on work permit applications than retirement visas for the simple reason that they have an obligation to see their own people in jobs before foreigners, and employers have realised they can get locals for much less than an import.

7. Again, which countries (other than Cambo) give you the 'automatic right to start a business' ? You need a permit.

One has only to read Phuket News to get a pretty quick impression of what goes on in Thailand and I think this must be pretty demoralising on a long term basis.

This is the sentence that prompted my response - Thailand is a lot bigger than Phuket/Pattaya/central Bangkok, yet these are the areas most heavily populated by foreigners (I'm not a fan of most of the islands either). These are the areas most prone to crime against foreigners - that said, I've done 3-month stints in both BKK and Pattaya and never once come home to a burgled apartment. I get the impression that isnt the case in several parts of Malaysia in 2013.

You dont have to go far to find expats online who are disenchanted with life in Thailand in 2013 - when you dig deeper, most seem to be saddled with two unfortunate realities : they live in Bangkok and they no longer have the means to live the lives they did 15 years ago. The financial requirements listed above would have seemed like a 'fortune' to most Thais back in the late 90s, but things have changed and BKK is an increasingly expensive city to live in. I have similar concerns for anyone planning to spend 30+ years in KL or Jakarta, but that's their lookout.

IVV, we could engage in to-and-fro, point and counterpoint, but as I said earlier we have both made the same decision for different reasons - Malaysia over Thailand (and other retirement destinations). If I spend 6 months on Penang and its not to my liking, no problem - back to the drawing board and a map - but I go in with both eyes wide open to the fact that Malaysia is no more a Utopia than Thailand - each country faces its own share of challenges and each has people who definitely arent happy to see foreigners (including those who see us purely as a walking ATM) : that's life.

Peace out.

bakedbean

I think you could probably say that about every country in the world, to be honest. There will always be a percentage....some high, some low.

What I have found, and maybe I am unique on this thread, as I have been retired with spouse (ehrm....not Thai hehe) in both Thailand and Malaysia. I am generalizing of course but, I would say that, on the whole, Malaysians are glad to see foreigners. The MM2H visa comes under the umbrella of Tourism in Malaysia. It used to be MoTour (Ministry of Tourism), now merged into MoTac.

In Thailand, the visa comes under Immigration. I think that speaks volumes.

Anyway guys (and gals), I think this is a great discussion. Good to hear everybody's points of view I think.

At the end of the day though, you just have to go and try out a country, and see if it suits you.

gobbledonk

Agree, BB, and that's precisely what I'll be doing 5 months from now.

InVinoVeritas

You’re right bakedbean – this is a great discussion – and it would be a shame to stop it now the fun has started! I also think it’s right to carry on this thread because people thinking of retiring to Thailand will almost certainly come across references to MM2H and will want to dig deeper into the pros and cos of the two countries.

Turning to your comments, gobbledonk, you’re quite right that you can buy property in Thailand through your Thai wife (if you have one) - but once she moves her family in, and moves you out, you pretty soon find out that, legally, it’s not your property at all.

I alsop agree that it’s very uncommon to find non-Thai couples in Thailand – I think that, in itself, speaks volumes.

Here is a link concerning the tax situation on funds remitted to someone who is resident in Thailand: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

In Malaysia, there is an automatic right for holders of MM2H to work for up to 20 hours per week (I even read somewhere that they are thinking of increasing this). There is also an automatic right to start a business in Malaysia. In both cases there is paperwork involved but my point is that in Thailand you are not entitled to do either.

Phuket News carries news from all over Thailand and bad things don’t just happen in Phuket, Pattaya and Bangkok! I do regularly check out the news in Penang and Malaysia - either nothing terribly dramatic happens or it is not reported.

I do wholeheartedly agree that a move to Penang need not to be for life and one can always dig out the map if things don’t turn out for the best but as we get older this becomes rather less appealing hence the desire to check out all the angles before taking the plunge.

I know there are many people on this forum with experience of both countries – come on let’s hear your views!

JC3

Hi,

What follows is in response to Gobbledonk's comments above.

I believe InVinoVeritas is correct when he says there is
'No exemption from income tax on funds brought into Thailand'

In Thailand, taxpayers are classified into Resident and Non-resident. Resident means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year.
A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.
A non-resident is subject to tax only on income from sources within Thailand.
(Source: Thai Govt Revenue Dept)

Which countries give you an 'automatic right to work' ?

Full-time? None that I know of in Asia. But if you are a British Citizen then you can work freely in many places, including:

EU countries
French Guiana
French Polynesia
Gibraltar
Guadeloupe
Iceland
Liechtenstein
Martinique
Mayotte
New Caledonia
Norway
Réunion
Saint Barthélemey
Saint Martin
Saint Pierre and Miquelon
Switzerland
Wallis and Futuna


JC3

gobbledonk

I stand corrected on the work issue - my focus is solely on retirement. FWIW, there is an explosion of interest in Cambodia on my Thai forum atm, based on reports that they will give you a 'Business Visa' for 25USD, entitling you to stay in the country for 12 months and run a business if you so desire. Technically, applicants for said visa are supposed to supply supporting documentation - several posters are claiming that this is never actually requested.

Personally, Pnomh Penh would need to have undergone massive improvements (street lights would be a start ..) for me to even consider moving there, but how many countries let you stay 12 months for 25USD ? I expect that more palms will need to be greased in the fullness of time, but right now it seems like every disenchanted Thai-based expats dream come true.

InVinoVeritas

Hi Gobbledonk – I would be very interested in more information on this $25, 1-year business visa to Cambodia, not for me but for my son-in-law who is currently (and with great difficulty) trying to make his way in Vietnam.

All I can find on the internet is a 1 month business visa for $25 and a 1 year extension for $200 plus a mountain of red tape.

I’m not sure if this is on-topic or off-topic so I’ll let you decide if it’s best to PM me.

Cheers, IVV

bakedbean

I was under the impression, and maybe I am wrong, that it's not so easy getting permission to work in Malaysia under MM2H. Did you get that info from Kebi? Would be interested on his take on that. JC3, any thoughts on that? You know a lot of things

JC3

Flattery will get you a response!

The Ministry of Tourism put out a press release in 2009, that said:

Qualified MM2H participants aged 50 and above with specialised skills and expertise that are required in the critical sectors of the economy are allowed to work, subject to the approval of the Expatriate Committee.

MM2H participants are now encouraged to invest and actively participate in business in the various sectors of the economy.

A similar statement can be found on older (cached) versions of the MM2H site . See for example: www.mm2h.gov.my/mandarint/announcement.php

I do not know how easy or difficult it is to get the necessary approval, but the words ’50 and above, qualified, specialised skills and expertise, critical sectors’ suggest that there needs to be a good fit. Successful applicants will get the endorsement of ‘Permission To Work’ in their passport.

I can’t find a list of ‘Critical Sectors’ but perhaps the list below (from the guidelines / application process) is indicative.

Supporting /recommendation letter from related agency (if applicable) :
• Education – Ministry of Higher Education/Ministry of Education
• Medical – Ministry of Health
• Tourism – Ministry of Tourism
• Aviation – Department of Aviation Malaysia
• Manufacturing – Malaysia Industrial Development Authority
• Information & Communication Technology
• Banking, Financial & Insurance – Central Bank Malaysia
• Securities & Futures Industries – Securities Commission

If you do get approval to work part time, be wary of expecting the approval to last more than 10 years.

JC3

JC3

After the first month, when you want to extend the business visa by one year, it may be best to go the unofficial route to avoid the red tape, and having your passport held by immigration for almost a month.

Pay another US$65-$80 under the table and you can get your passport back within 24 hours. Try the travel agencies in Phnom Penh.

More info at:
lonelyplanet.com/cambodia/practical-information/visas#ixzz2lCKgmH5W

JC3