Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

More options Aug 13, 8:28 am
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty, talk.politics.misc,
uk.politics.misc, aus.politics, soc.retirement
From: PJ O'Donovan <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 05:28:12 -0700
Local: Mon, Aug 13 2007 8:28 am
Subject: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
get knees fixed
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Brits need to win the lottery to get their knees fixed

"Being in pain doesn't count, of course. The NHS was supposed to
eliminate the gap between rich and poor but after nearly 60 years the
gap is still a chasm. The poor are still reduced to the role of
charity supplicants

For the lottery multi-millionaire, it must be a difficult choice.
Which little luxury should we go for first - the mansion, the limo or
the world cruise? But for Tony and Greta Dodd, the decision was a
little more prosaic. After recovering from the shock of taking a
2,438,155 pound share in a rollover jackpot, they got straight on the
phone to the nearest private hospital to book themselves in for four
replacement knees.

The couple, aged 67 and 69 respectively, are both on the NHS waiting
list for operations and suffer constant pain. "We're ecstatic," said
Mr Dodd, a retired taxi driver. "As soon as it sank in that this money
was for real we decided the first thing we want is a new pair of knees
each. I've been on the NHS list for six months and up to now I've
heard nothing - not even a proposed date for an operation. "Greta has
only just gone on the waiting list so we were concerned that she would
have even longer to wait. Now we are thrilled to be able to sign a
cheque."

http://www.thisislondon.co.ws/article-23405676-details/OAP+couple+cel...

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:40:38 -0700, PJ O'Donovan <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> More options Aug 13, 8:28 am
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty, talk.politics.misc,
>uk.politics.misc, aus.politics, soc.retirement
>From: PJ O'Donovan <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 05:28:12 -0700
>Local: Mon, Aug 13 2007 8:28 am
>Subject: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
>get knees fixed
>Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show
>original | Remove | Report this message | Find messages by this author
>
> Brits need to win the lottery to get their knees fixed
>
>"Being in pain doesn't count, of course. The NHS was supposed to
>eliminate the gap between rich and poor but after nearly 60 years the
>gap is still a chasm. The poor are still reduced to the role of
>charity supplicants
>
>For the lottery multi-millionaire, it must be a difficult choice.
>Which little luxury should we go for first - the mansion, the limo or
>the world cruise? But for Tony and Greta Dodd, the decision was a
>little more prosaic. After recovering from the shock of taking a
>2,438,155 pound share in a rollover jackpot, they got straight on the
>phone to the nearest private hospital to book themselves in for four
>replacement knees.
>
>The couple, aged 67 and 69 respectively, are both on the NHS waiting
>list for operations and suffer constant pain. "We're ecstatic," said
>Mr Dodd, a retired taxi driver. "As soon as it sank in that this money
>was for real we decided the first thing we want is a new pair of knees
>each. I've been on the NHS list for six months and up to now I've
>heard nothing - not even a proposed date for an operation. "Greta has
>only just gone on the waiting list so we were concerned that she would
>have even longer to wait. Now we are thrilled to be able to sign a
>cheque."
>
>http://www.thisislondon.co.ws/articl...OAP+couple+cel...
>


What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:

>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.

Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Doesn't Frequently Mop wrote:

> Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
> [email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
> >What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
> >Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>
> Any other illness and you'll be just fine!


Lol...


--
Best
Greg

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>
>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!

Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:30:49 GMT,
[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:

>On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>>
>>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>>
>>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>
>Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.

Best place to get treated for that is Northern Ireland - in Britain.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

"John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>>
>>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>>
>>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>
> Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.

The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
infinite.

Colin Bignell

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

In article <[email protected]>, nightjar
<nightjar@<insert> wrote:

> "John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
> > <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >
> >>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
> >>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
> >>
> >>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
> >>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
> >>
> >>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
> >
> > Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>
> The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
> like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
> infinite.

With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
around.

jay
Wed Aug 15, 2007
mailto:[email protected]


>
> Colin Bignell
>
>

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:26:17 +0100, "nightjar" <nightjar@<insert my
surname here>.uk.com> wrote:

>
>"John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>
>>>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>>>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>>>
>>>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>>>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>>>
>>>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>>
>> Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>
>The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
>like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
>infinite.

That's the rationing point I mentioned. Kind of undercuts the
universal coverage point. What is the point of having universal
coverage if you can't get treatment? This, of course, is not just an
affliction of the British system but of many. But how does this
denial of treatment differ materially from our lack of 100% coverage
here? Neither get treatment unless acute, which is the emergency room
here.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Make credence recognised that on Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:15:21 -0700, Go
Fig <[email protected]> has scripted:

>In article <[email protected]>, nightjar
><nightjar@<insert> wrote:
>
>> "John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>> > <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>> >>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>> >>
>> >>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>> >>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>> >>
>> >>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>> >
>> > Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>>
>> The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
>> like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
>> infinite.
>
>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>around.

The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Make credence recognised that on Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:45:02 GMT,
[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:26:17 +0100, "nightjar" <nightjar@<insert my
>surname here>.uk.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>>> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>>>>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>>>>
>>>>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>>>>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>>>>
>>>>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>>>
>>> Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>>
>>The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
>>like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
>>infinite.
>
>That's the rationing point I mentioned. Kind of undercuts the
>universal coverage point. What is the point of having universal
>coverage if you can't get treatment?

You can always get treatment. Why do you say this rubbish?
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Aug 15, 1:30 pm, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> Make credence recognised that on Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:45:02 GMT,
> [email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:26:17 +0100, "nightjar" <nightjar@<insert my
> >surname here>.uk.com> wrote:
>
> >>"John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
> >>> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
> >>>>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
> >>>>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
> >>>>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
> >>>>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>
> >>>>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>
> >>> Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>
> >>The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
> >>like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
> >>infinite.
>
> >That's the rationing point I mentioned. Kind of undercuts the
> >universal coverage point. What is the point of having universal
> >coverage if you can't get treatment?
>
> You can always get treatment. Why do you say this rubbish?

Well, you're both messing with semantics a bit. The knees are
"getting treatment". But at some point waiting for some extended
period of time for the appropriate surgery, whilst taking some
ineffective pain medication, isn't functionally "getting" treatment,
it's "pending" treatment. Furthermore, in many systems
"treatment" can be had, it is of course "payment" that may
be the problem. The right in this country loves to claim that
"everyone has access" to medical care, which is technically
true. They have no means by which to pay for it of course,
but they do technically have "access" if not functionally.

But if one isn't too semantic about the whole issue, it
is inescapeable that in virtually any system, "rationing"
in the sense of trying to limit who has access to some
treatments, will be a feature. Predominately the degree
of that rationing will be a function of available funds and
the costs of the treatment. More than one person has
pointed out that healthcare costs in the US wouldn't
be nearly so daunting if we could figure out one tiny
little problem. Apparently, for many patients, 95% of
their lifetime costs of healthcare will be expended in
something like the last 2 years of their life.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:30:34 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>Make credence recognised that on Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:45:02 GMT,
>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:26:17 +0100, "nightjar" <nightjar@<insert my
>>surname here>.uk.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"John Kulp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected].. .
>>>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>>>> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
>>>>>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>>>>>
>>>>>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
>>>>>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>>>>
>>>> Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>>>
>>>The strength of the NHS is in dealing with acute problems. Chronic problems,
>>>like dodgy knees, get put into waiting lists, because the purse is not
>>>infinite.
>>
>>That's the rationing point I mentioned. Kind of undercuts the
>>universal coverage point. What is the point of having universal
>>coverage if you can't get treatment?
>
>You can always get treatment. Why do you say this rubbish?

Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:41:26 -0700, me <[email protected]>
wrote:


>> You can always get treatment. Why do you say this rubbish?
>
> Well, you're both messing with semantics a bit. The knees are
>"getting treatment". But at some point waiting for some extended
>period of time for the appropriate surgery, whilst taking some
>ineffective pain medication, isn't functionally "getting" treatment,
>it's "pending" treatment. Furthermore, in many systems
>"treatment" can be had, it is of course "payment" that may
>be the problem. The right in this country loves to claim that
>"everyone has access" to medical care, which is technically
>true. They have no means by which to pay for it of course,
>but they do technically have "access" if not functionally.
>
> But if one isn't too semantic about the whole issue, it
>is inescapeable that in virtually any system, "rationing"
>in the sense of trying to limit who has access to some
>treatments, will be a feature. Predominately the degree
>of that rationing will be a function of available funds and
>the costs of the treatment. More than one person has
>pointed out that healthcare costs in the US wouldn't
>be nearly so daunting if we could figure out one tiny
>little problem. Apparently, for many patients, 95% of
>their lifetime costs of healthcare will be expended in
>something like the last 2 years of their life.
>

A fact of aging unfortunately. And causing massive problems for all
the developed countries because their populations as a whole are
aging.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>around.
>
>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>--

You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
all excellent docs BTW.


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
(John Kulp) wrote:

>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.

I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
your system doesn't get it at all.


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>
>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>your system doesn't get it at all.
>
Alan, you have too much time on your hands. It's never productive
arguing with somebody who verbally abuses those who have different
opinions from his own.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:54:40 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan, you have too much time on your hands.
True; one of the side-effects of retirement.

> It's never productive
>arguing with somebody who verbally abuses those who have different
>opinions from his own.
I spend too much time in medical groups where that is often
par for the course:-)


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>around.
>>
>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>--
>
>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>all excellent docs BTW.

Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:44:12 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>
>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>your system doesn't get it at all.

Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
that others have lots of flaws of their own.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:54:40 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>>(John Kulp) wrote:
>>
>>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>>
>>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>>your system doesn't get it at all.
>>
>Alan, you have too much time on your hands. It's never productive
>arguing with somebody who verbally abuses those who have different
>opinions from his own.

You mean like the so called doctor saying F this and F that?

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
(John Kulp) wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>
>>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>>around.
>>>
>>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>>--
>>
>>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>>all excellent docs BTW.
>
>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?

Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
actual surgery is performed there.

The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
definition, see 3.a:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:42:06 GMT, [email protected]
(John Kulp) wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:44:12 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>>(John Kulp) wrote:
>>
>>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>>
>>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>>your system doesn't get it at all.
>
>Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
>done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
>year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
>number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
>work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
>way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
>discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
>that others have lots of flaws of their own.

I don't want to denigrate any national system. None of our
systems are perfect and they all have different problems -
but there is a reason why my travel insurance is more
expensive if I include the USA in a trip no matter where
else in the world I am going.

As Padraig noted I have time on my hands; I spend a couple
of hours each day on usenet and web diabetes groups and a
world-wide leukemia email group. Those groups are dominated
by Americans who make sure that the rest of us are well
aware of both the strengths (in quality and research) and
shortcomings (in cost and insurance coverage) of your
system.

So, I think you grossly underestimate the problem. I meet
too many people, on the net and physically in my travels,
who have been bankrupted, or gone close to it, by the cost
of care. People who have lost homes, retirement funds, all
their assets to be able to afford appropriate treatment for
chronic or life-threatening conditions. And the catch-22 of
those whose health coverage is related to their employment
but who lost their jobs - and that coverage - because of a
chronic health condition. Those who CAN afford it get
wonderful health care, but just read some of the current
threads on those groups discussing Michael Moore's "Sicko"
(using that as the trigger for discussion, not the merits of
the movie itself).

If you want specifics - I won't post them here. Too OT. But
off-group I can tell you the different prices I pay for
diabetes supplies; or what I will/may pay eventually for
chemo. And then I can tell you stories of guys I know in the
States risking their health buying meds or glucose test
strips in Mexico or on the net, or flying to Central America
or Asia for medical procedures they can afford.

And to balance that, I can also bore you with details of the
problems in the UK of the postcode lottery and getting
adequate test strips for Type 2 diabetes management. But,
I've said enough now to last a while so this will be my last
post on it:-)


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:13:43 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:42:06 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:44:12 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>>>(John Kulp) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>>>
>>>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>>>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>>>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>>>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>>>your system doesn't get it at all.
>>
>>Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
>>done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
>>year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
>>number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
>>work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
>>way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
>>discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
>>that others have lots of flaws of their own.
>
>I don't want to denigrate any national system. None of our
>systems are perfect and they all have different problems -
>but there is a reason why my travel insurance is more
>expensive if I include the USA in a trip no matter where
>else in the world I am going.
>
>As Padraig noted I have time on my hands; I spend a couple
>of hours each day on usenet and web diabetes groups and a
>world-wide leukemia email group. Those groups are dominated
>by Americans who make sure that the rest of us are well
>aware of both the strengths (in quality and research) and
>shortcomings (in cost and insurance coverage) of your
>system.
>
>So, I think you grossly underestimate the problem. I meet
>too many people, on the net and physically in my travels,
>who have been bankrupted, or gone close to it, by the cost
>of care. People who have lost homes, retirement funds, all
>their assets to be able to afford appropriate treatment for
>chronic or life-threatening conditions. And the catch-22 of
>those whose health coverage is related to their employment
>but who lost their jobs - and that coverage - because of a
>chronic health condition. Those who CAN afford it get
>wonderful health care, but just read some of the current
>threads on those groups discussing Michael Moore's "Sicko"
>(using that as the trigger for discussion, not the merits of
>the movie itself).
>
>If you want specifics - I won't post them here. Too OT. But
>off-group I can tell you the different prices I pay for
>diabetes supplies; or what I will/may pay eventually for
>chemo. And then I can tell you stories of guys I know in the
>States risking their health buying meds or glucose test
>strips in Mexico or on the net, or flying to Central America
>or Asia for medical procedures they can afford.
>
>And to balance that, I can also bore you with details of the
>problems in the UK of the postcode lottery and getting
>adequate test strips for Type 2 diabetes management. But,
>I've said enough now to last a while so this will be my last
>post on it:-)

Yes, what you say is quite true here, which is why I said I was for
universal coverage here before. The US system is a bizarre
combination of top notch medical care for most (leaving out the
inevitable malpractice cases that pop up in any system for various
reasons) and people falling off the cliff, which shouldn't happen. No
doubt and it needs fixing for sure. But, that having been said, the
objectives of the posters to whom I was replying for the most part was
simply to libel our system, calling it ghastly and the like, which
it's not and I am not going to let it pass. Misunderstanding is one
thing and intentional distortions, lies, falsehoods are quite another.
A lot of this is the pot calling the kettle black by these types, as
if they somehow have the perfect solution. They don't. As for
Michael Moore, if he were at all intelligent, he would put out movies
that are balanced and show the entire situation, as you do right here.
That would be a true public service and, perhaps, do a lot to get this
solved. But he is just a left wing ideologue and ignores the balance
so the right wing nutbars can easily get his stuff dismissed. Oddly
enough, it was George Bush's cousin who taught him how to direct.
How's that for irony? Anyway, good luck with your conditions. No one
should have to bear that burden and also worry about their financial
security.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:45:02 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>>><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>>>around.
>>>>
>>>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>>>--
>>>
>>>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>>>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>>>all excellent docs BTW.
>>
>>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
>
>Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
>is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
>actual surgery is performed there.
>
>The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
>definition, see 3.a:
>http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery

Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. I wonder if it
originated way back when they thought cutting up someone (or leeching
them) was the way to treat everything

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
 

Alan S wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
> (John Kulp) wrote:
>
>
>>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
>
>
> Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
> is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
> actual surgery is performed there.
>
>
The term is also used for MPs and MSPs, for the meetings they have with
their constituents.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On 14 Aug, 21:12, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:30:49 GMT,
> [email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
> >On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
> ><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
> >>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
> >>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
> >>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
> >>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>
> >>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>
> >Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>
> Best place to get treated for that is Northern Ireland - in Britain.
> --
> ---
> DFM -http://www.deepfriedmars.com
> ---
> --

Belgium is closer and they speak better English :))
http://www.direct-healthcare.com/knee-surgery.htm

knees
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3879371.stm

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

S Viemeister <[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan S wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
>> (John Kulp) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>>>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
>>
>>
>> Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
>> is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
>> actual surgery is performed there.
>>
>>
>The term is also used for MPs and MSPs, for the meetings they have with
>their constituents.

In Ireland:
- politicians have clinics
- GPs and dentists have surgeries
- consultants seeing private patients have rooms, fixed appointments,
and no queues
- consultants seeing public patients have clinics, general
appointments ("everybody come at 09.30"), and you might wait for three
hours.
- surgeons have theatres
- administrators have offices.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

"S Viemeister" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Alan S wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
> > (John Kulp) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
> >>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
> >
> >
> > Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
> > is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
> > actual surgery is performed there.
> >
> >
> The term is also used for MPs and MSPs, for the meetings they have with
> their constituents.
>

And local cops, etc., etc.

Surreyman

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
 

John Kulp wrote:
>
>> The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
>> definition, see 3.a:
>> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery
>
> Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. I wonder if it
> originated way back when they thought cutting up someone (or leeching
> them) was the way to treat everything.

I believe that leeches are making a comeback. Apparently they are useful
for treating open wounds, and prevent gangrene.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Make credence recognised that on Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan
S <[email protected]> has scripted:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>around.
>>
>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>--
>
>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>all excellent docs BTW.

Just a really odd, probably really racist view from Go Fig. I wouldn't
trust a British doctor anymore than a non British one.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
 

John Kulp wrote:
>
> Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
> done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
> year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
> number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
> work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
> way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
> discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
> that others have lots of flaws of their own.

Slightly off-topic, but did I read recently that a woman collapsed in a
U.S.hospital waiting room and the watching medical staff refused help,
just stood watching, and the woman's companion actally had to call 911
to get medical treatment? I wondered at the time whether the reason was
that she had no insurance cover. I believe the woman eventually died.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
 

Alan S wrote:
>
> So, I think you grossly underestimate the problem. I meet
> too many people, on the net and physically in my travels,
> who have been bankrupted, or gone close to it, by the cost
> of care. People who have lost homes, retirement funds, all
> their assets to be able to afford appropriate treatment for
> chronic or life-threatening conditions. And the catch-22 of
> those whose health coverage is related to their employment
> but who lost their jobs - and that coverage - because of a
> chronic health condition. Those who CAN afford it get
> wonderful health care, but just read some of the current
> threads on those groups discussing Michael Moore's "Sicko"
> (using that as the trigger for discussion, not the merits of
> the movie itself).

Here is a relevant story on this subject.

"When staying alive means going bankrupt"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20201807/

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:05:28 +0100, mike o'sullivan <[email protected]>
wrote:

>John Kulp wrote:
>>
>>> The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
>>> definition, see 3.a:
>>> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery
>>
>> Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. I wonder if it
>> originated way back when they thought cutting up someone (or leeching
>> them) was the way to treat everything.
>
>I believe that leeches are making a comeback. Apparently they are useful
>for treating open wounds, and prevent gangrene.

Absolutely true now that they have learned how to use them properly.
They apparently have a strong anticoagulant in their saliva (or
whatever it is) that keeps the blood flowing. Ugly little creatures
though.

Another interesting one is curare which South America indians us in
their hunting, which is being us as anathesia nowadays

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:12:14 +0100, mike o'sullivan <[email protected]>
wrote:

>John Kulp wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
>> done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
>> year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
>> number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
>> work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
>> way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
>> discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
>> that others have lots of flaws of their own.
>
>Slightly off-topic, but did I read recently that a woman collapsed in a
>U.S.hospital waiting room and the watching medical staff refused help,
>just stood watching, and the woman's companion actally had to call 911
>to get medical treatment? I wondered at the time whether the reason was
>that she had no insurance cover. I believe the woman eventually died.

Where is that reported? Here are a couple for you:

Wednesday, December 30, 1998

Pregnant woman dies after being refused treatment
EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE
BANGALORE, Dec 29: In a tragic incident, Santhi (28), a pregnant woman
in advanced stages of labour pain, died on the way to the hospital
after two other hospitals refused to treat her. Santhi was taken to
the K C General Hospital in Malleswaram for treatment where the staff
refused to admit her on account of skeletal staff. Later a private
maternity home in Rajajinagar refused to treat her stating that it did
not have sufficient equipments to deal with such cases. They suggested
that she be admitted to the St Martha's hospital some five kilometres
from here. But Santhi died on the way to St Martha's hospital.

Take note Blacko.

Japan: Pregnant Woman Dies After Being Refused for Treatment

News Â? A pregnant woman who fell into a coma while giving birth died
after a six hour delay due to being refused for treatment. 18
hospitals denied her treatment prior to admittance at the National
Cardiovascular Center in Suita, Osaka.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

Make credence recognised that on Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:42:52 GMT,
[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:

>You mean like the so called doctor saying F this and F that?

Sorry, but you have lost John. Your wit's end isn't up to it.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to
 

John Kulp wrote:
>
> Absolutely true now that they have learned how to use them properly.
> They apparently have a strong anticoagulant in their saliva (or
> whatever it is) that keeps the blood flowing. Ugly little creatures
> though.
>
> Another interesting one is curare which South America indians us in
> their hunting, which is being us as anathesia nowadays.

Reminds me of a Ronnie Scott joke - "Our chef is world famous. Pygmies
come round the world just to dip their spears in his soup"!

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:19:12 +0100, mike o'sullivan
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan S wrote:
>>
>> So, I think you grossly underestimate the problem. I meet
>> too many people, on the net and physically in my travels,
>> who have been bankrupted, or gone close to it, by the cost
>> of care. People who have lost homes, retirement funds, all
>> their assets to be able to afford appropriate treatment for
>> chronic or life-threatening conditions. And the catch-22 of
>> those whose health coverage is related to their employment
>> but who lost their jobs - and that coverage - because of a
>> chronic health condition. Those who CAN afford it get
>> wonderful health care, but just read some of the current
>> threads on those groups discussing Michael Moore's "Sicko"
>> (using that as the trigger for discussion, not the merits of
>> the movie itself).
>
>Here is a relevant story on this subject.
>
>"When staying alive means going bankrupt"
>
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20201807/

This link within that story is more frightening for US
readers:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:22:44 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

>Make credence recognised that on Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:42:52 GMT,
>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
>>You mean like the so called doctor saying F this and F that?
>
>Sorry, but you have lost John. Your wit's end isn't up to it.

As if I would care. I'm in Copenhagen having fun now.

Re: Socialized medicine UK: Most Brits have to win the lottery to get knees fixed
 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:58:49 +0100, mike o'sullivan <[email protected]>
wrote:

>John Kulp wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely true now that they have learned how to use them properly.
>> They apparently have a strong anticoagulant in their saliva (or
>> whatever it is) that keeps the blood flowing. Ugly little creatures
>> though.
>>
>> Another interesting one is curare which South America indians us in
>> their hunting, which is being us as anathesia nowadays.
>
>Reminds me of a Ronnie Scott joke - "Our chef is world famous. Pygmies
>come round the world just to dip their spears in his soup"!
>

Clever little devils aren't they?