Martin

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:00:41 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Padraig
    >Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <[email protected]>, Padraig
    >> >Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >Have you seen the (official) site:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >http://www.visaloire.com/accueil.php?lang=en
    >> >> >
    >> >> The site is not very enticing, is it?
    >> >
    >> >I found the .pdf's brochures to be reasonable as a starting point.
    >> >
    >> >Did you look at those ?
    >> >
    >> No. I didn't persist, because the site didn't appeal to me. Where are
    >> the pdfs hidden?
    >They are not hidden, Brochures are clearly indicated on the front page
    >and many others as well.
    >Again, it is a general interest site... but I believe as the marketing
    >agent for the region... they have a good idea of what the average
    >visitor might be interested in.
    >jay
    >Wed Aug 24, 2005
    >mailto:[email protected]
    >
    >>
    >> I wasn't researching, because I know the Loire Valley moderately well,
    >> just looking in to see if there was anything of particular interest to
    >> me.

I found the site good. Certainly worth the minimal effort to find my
way around it
--
Martin

vputzu

Hallo,
I was in the Loire Valley this summer, and i must say I was quite
deceptioned.

Everythin (castles, restaurants, cafe, bookshops) was much more
expensive then the place would deserve.

The castles are not so beautiful as the french "grandeur" present them,
in Italy and Spain I have seen much better castles.

Also they are greatly restored (or maybe a better term would be
rebuilt) and in a awfull way. The forniture is mainly from other
places, other styles, with brigh-red-new-tapicery.

In Italy normally when the original forniture and tapicery get lost,
they leave the room empty, here in Loire Valley they buy some false
peaces in a street market and make a false "as it was".

Also in this area everybody is really rude: they only pretend to speak
french, not the minimal effort to speak in another language. Personally
I speak Italian, English, Spanish and a little German, but I have never
found anybody speaking a languge different from french. Don't french
have the subjet "foreign languages" at school as in the rest of Europe?


Personally I had the impression that many of them understood perfectly
English, but simply wanted to oblige you to speak their language.
Anyway when a person don't understand and ask to repeat, it would be
kind at least to speak more slowly, but in Loire Valley, the few times
that they repeat (normally they simply go away if they see that you do
not understand), they repeat with the double speed, and ungry because
they are loosing time with you.

Personally this area of France will never more have money from me.
Valeria

Padraig Breathnach

[email protected] wrote:

    >Everythin (castles, restaurants, cafe, bookshops) was much more
    >expensive then the place would deserve.
That is a subjective judgement. I don't consider the Loire Valley an
expensive place.

    >The castles are not so beautiful as the french "grandeur" present them,
    >in Italy and Spain I have seen much better castles.
Many are beautiful. Other are not, but can be interesting.

    >Also they are greatly restored (or maybe a better term would be
    >rebuilt) and in a awfull way.
Some have been restored; others have been well maintained, and have
needed very little restoration. In general, I don't think the
restorative work has been bad.

    > The forniture is mainly from other
    >places, other styles, with brigh-red-new-tapicery.
    >In Italy normally when the original forniture and tapicery get lost,
    >they leave the room empty, here in Loire Valley they buy some false
    >peaces in a street market and make a false "as it was".
That seems to me to be too harsh a comment. Some chateaux have
original furniture (although most I have visited do not); some have
replacement furniture, but often of good quality and of an appropriate
period; some are unfurnished; some have exhibitions or museums.

    >Also in this area everybody is really rude: they only pretend to speak
    >french, not the minimal effort to speak in another language. Personally
    >I speak Italian, English, Spanish and a little German, but I have never
    >found anybody speaking a languge different from french. Don't french
    >have the subjet "foreign languages" at school as in the rest of Europe?
"Everybody is really rude"? Come on! Like everywhere I have ever been,
I found a wide range of behaviour, good and bad. [There are plenty of
rude tourists, as well.]

I certainly don't have the impression that I experienced more rudeness
in the Loire Valley than elsewhere (except for one hotelier, but we
chose not to stay in her establishment). My general impression is that
the pace of life there is easy, and the people are more polite than
affable.

    >Personally I had the impression that many of them understood perfectly
    >English, but simply wanted to oblige you to speak their language.
I'm not sure that you are right about how good a command of English
people have. Of course some have good or reasonable English but, in my
experience, many do not. This seems particularly the case in small
hotels and restaurants. It doesn't bother me, because I can get by in
French.

    >Anyway when a person don't understand and ask to repeat, it would be
    >kind at least to speak more slowly, but in Loire Valley, the few times
    >that they repeat (normally they simply go away if they see that you do
    >not understand), they repeat with the double speed, and ungry because
    >they are loosing time with you.
I don't think that is particular to the Loire Valley. I find that if a
French person says something to me that I don't understand, and I say
that I didn't understand, the thing is repeated in pretty well the
same way as before, using the word or words that I didn't get. I think
the idea of circumlocution is alien to France.

    >Personally this area of France will never more have money from me.
I suspect that I won't cause you to change your mind, but I will
certainly go again -- and again.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Bb

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:31:17 +0100, Padraig Breathnach wrote:

    >>Everythin (castles, restaurants, cafe, bookshops) was much more
    >>expensive then the place would deserve.
    > That is a subjective judgement. I don't consider the Loire Valley an
    > expensive place.

Our triple room in Chenonceaux was 70 Euro, a nice dinner was about 13
Euro each (without drinks). It wasn't one of the more expensive places we
visited. And the dinner was one of the most delicious I've ever tasted.

    >>The castles are not so beautiful as the french "grandeur" present them,
    >>in Italy and Spain I have seen much better castles.
    > Many are beautiful. Other are not, but can be interesting.

To some extent I agree with the previous poster, but I suppose its
relative. Once you've seen Windsor Palace, Versailles, the Doges Palace,
and some of the other main palaces of Europe, the interior of the chateaux
seem very spartan in comparison. I'll admit I didn't tour many; once we
visited Chenonceaux and weren't so impressed by the interior we didn't pay
the hefty fees to go inside the others. We did see some exteriors and
gardens that were very, very nice.

We were just passing through as the OP (for this thread) is planning to
do, and its worth at least a stop or two. Its a beautiful region, and even
if you don't care for touring old mansions the enjoyable part can be
journey itself. We experienced no rudeness or reluctanct to speak English.
Of course they didn't all speak English perfectly, but there is no reason
to expect them to. They certainly were fluent enough to help us out when
we needed it.

--
-BB-
To e-mail me, unmunge my address

JuanElorza

Gerrit 't Hart wrote:

    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ups.com...
    >
    >>We are honeymooning in France in early October, with part of the trip
    >>driving from Aix to Normandy; we're seeking input on the 'must see'
    >>elements.
    >
    >
    > We did something similar last year. Drove from St Tropez area to St Malo in
    > 4 days.
    > Drove past Aix thence via Avignon (did not stop - seen it before) to Pont du
    > Gard. Thence to Rodez via Millau (check out the highestest bridge in the
    > world - awesome). Second day toSarlat via Beaulieu sur Dordogne. Stayed an
    > extra night there. Last day to St Malo.
    > If we were to do the same sort of thing again I think we would try to visit
    > Le Puy en Velay.
I like the Tarn canyon near Saint Enimie, not far from Millau. A lot of
places to see, old villages, ruined castles, down river trip on the Tarn
river.
http://causses-cevennes.com/tourisme...-Enimie-UK.htm
http://causses-cevennes.com/defaultUK.htm

    >
    > Most important I think is not to try to do too much.
    >
    > From your description of yourself I doubt whether you would really like the
    > chateaux of the Loire anyway.
Really different, you can try Clos Lucé (where Leonardo da Vinci died),
Cheverny, Valançay.
http://www.loiredeschateaux.com/

    >
    > Gerrit - Oz
    >
    >

didier Meurgues

[email protected] a écrit :

    > Hallo,
    > I was in the Loire Valley this summer, and i must say I was quite
    > deceptioned.

I'm wondering if valeria is german (hallo) or italian.

In fact I understand her a little. the Loire chateaux are (were) mainly
familial castles of small (Azay, Ussé, Talcy, Montsoreau...) or medium
size (Valencay, Saumur, Chaumont, Tanlay, Brissac, Plessis-Bourré...)
but rarely big like Chambord, Chateaudun, Chinon ruins, Blois, compared
with italian big city palaces and fortress generally highly decorated
with frescoes, and they are rarely perfectly restored like german
manucured castles, which have sometimes a less authentical aspect in
fact (coatings). But the Loire chateaux are extremely varied in shape
(less in decoration except by periods) and VERY numerous in such a
small area. That's mainly what makes the interest of the region.
When they "are" royal like Chambord, Blois, Loches, Amboise, Chinon,
Plessis-les-Tours, etc... they can have suffered destructions like the
last 3, notably during the revolution (particularly pitifull for
Amboise ; Tours castle has virtually disappeared ; the most important
loss are the non royal completely rased Richelieu and Chanteloup) and
are often partly empty since the Court was mooving with its furnitures
in the 16th c. Consequently the royal ones have been "refurnished"
(remeublés) with difficulty and incompletly, notably Chambord, despite
praiseworthy but still insuficient efforts in Blois (where you find on
the contrary one of the best recent restoration of the exteriors), and
a greater success in Amboise (which is one of the most evocative).
The smaller familial chateaux generally present authentical exteriors,
as well as some sculpted decorations inside like the royal ones, and
generally have kept their familial furnitures. The notion of
"originality" is a bit useless in familial chateaux used during
centuries and furnished according to the needs until the 19th c. These
furnitures are often of a "bourgeois" level and rarely exceptional, but
sometimes of a good level (contrary to what was said in another post I
include Chenonceaux, valencay, etc... in these ones but can't make a
precise list since I can't remember very well). Sometimes they worth
for a special thing like the gardens of Villandry or the sites of
Chaumont (both interiors are of the bourgeois kind) and Chenonceaux,
for writers like Ussé, Talcy, Saché, La Devinière, etc... Sometimes
some less harmonious restorations of the exteriors (windows generally)
or of the interiors (palais Jacques Coeur) have been done in the 19th
c. But that's uncommon. This is unfortunately much more the case of the
houses surrounding them... (above all for a german) since they are
generally found in villages or in little cities without homogeneous and
"large" old districts like in Italy, with some exceptions nevertheless
(Chinon, Loches, Blois, Saumur, less in Amboise, etc...). Sometimes
some castles, notably municipal ones, are cared with less taste that
they would have been by a family, like Leangais despite the value of
its furnitures..., Beaugency keep, etc... Sometimes a small castle is
bigger like Montreuil-Bellay, Meung or more interesting like Meillant,
(Palluau near my parent's home : but don't make a detour !) that you
would have expected.
In fact there are extremely VARIED situations in the Loire valley
because of the castles and manors number and their various kind of
gestion (I don't know exactly how many they are but I can alone make a
list of 50, by memory...).

didier Meurgues

    > in Italy and Spain I have seen much better castles.
    > Also they are greatly restored (or maybe a better term would be
    > rebuilt) and in a awfull way. The forniture is mainly from other
    > places, other styles, with brigh-red-new-tapicery.
    > In Italy normally when the original forniture and tapicery get lost,
    > they leave the room empty, here in Loire Valley they buy some false
    > peaces in a street market and make a false "as it was".
    > Valeria

didier Meurgues

didier Meurgues a écrit :

    > [email protected] a écrit :
    > > Hallo,
    > > I was in the Loire Valley this summer, and i must say I was quite
    > > deceptioned.
    > I'm wondering if valeria is german (hallo) or italian.
    > In fact I understand her a little. the Loire chateaux are (were) mainly
    > familial castles of small (Azay, Ussé, Talcy, Montsoreau...) or medium
    > size (Valencay, Saumur, Chaumont, Tanlay, Brissac, Plessis-Bourré...)
    > but rarely big like Chambord, Chateaudun, Chinon ruins, Blois, compared
    > with italian big city palaces and fortress generally highly decorated
    > with frescoes, and they are rarely perfectly restored like german
    > manucured castles, which have sometimes a less authentical aspect in
    > fact (coatings). But the Loire chateaux are extremely varied in shape
    > (less in decoration except by periods) and VERY numerous in such a
    > small area. That's mainly what makes the interest of the region.
    > When they "are" royal like Chambord, Blois, Loches, Amboise, Chinon,
    > Plessis-les-Tours, etc... they can have suffered destructions like the
    > last 3, notably during the revolution (particularly pitifull for
    > Amboise ; Tours castle has virtually disappeared ; the most important
    > loss are the non royal completely rased Richelieu and Chanteloup) and
    > are often partly empty since the Court was mooving with its furnitures
    > in the 16th c. Consequently the royal ones have been "refurnished"
    > (remeublés) with difficulty and incompletly, notably Chambord, despite
    > praiseworthy but still insuficient efforts in Blois (where you find on
    > the contrary one of the best recent restoration of the exteriors), and
    > a greater success in Amboise (which is one of the most evocative).
    > The smaller familial chateaux generally present authentical exteriors,
    > as well as some sculpted decorations inside like the royal ones, and
    > generally have kept their familial furnitures. The notion of
    > "originality" is a bit useless in familial chateaux used during
    > centuries and furnished according to the needs until the 19th c. These
    > furnitures are often of a "bourgeois" level and rarely exceptional, but
    > sometimes of a good level (contrary to what was said in another post I
    > include Chenonceaux, valencay, etc... in these ones but can't make a
    > precise list since I can't remember very well). Sometimes they worth
    > for a special thing like the gardens of Villandry or the sites of
    > Chaumont (both interiors are of the bourgeois kind) and Chenonceaux,
    > for writers like Ussé, Talcy, Saché, La Devinière, etc... Sometimes
    > some less harmonious restorations of the exteriors (windows generally)
    > or of the interiors (palais Jacques Coeur) have been done in the 19th
    > c. But that's uncommon. This is unfortunately much more the case of the
    > houses surrounding them... (above all for a german) since they are
    > generally found in villages or in little cities without homogeneous and
    > "large" old districts like in Italy, with some exceptions nevertheless
    > (Chinon, Loches, Blois, Saumur, less in Amboise, etc...). Sometimes
    > some castles, notably municipal ones, are cared with less taste that
    > they would have been by a family, like Leangais despite the value of
    > its furnitures..., Beaugency keep, etc... Sometimes a small castle is
    > bigger like Montreuil-Bellay, Meung or more interesting like Meillant,
    > (Palluau near my parent's home : but don't make a detour !) that you
    > would have expected.
    > In fact there are extremely VARIED situations in the Loire valley
    > because of the castles and manors number and their various kind of
    > gestion (I don't know exactly how many they are but I can alone make a
    > list of 50, by memory...).

http://www.routard.com/guide_carte/c...e_la_loire.htm

On the map of this website about 25 black rectangles and about 30 of
the white spots (of cities and abbeys) show in fact more than 50
castles sites, but the manors are not included and I know a bit more
not mentionned ones like Montreuil-Bellay, Le Moulin, Le Rivau, Le
Plessis-Macé, Le Plessis-Bourré or in my departement of origin at the
very limit of the Loire valley influence (tuffeau white stone) L'Isle
Savary, Argy, Palluau, etc... The Berry (down the map) counts as well
many castles. Clic on the map to enlarge.
Sully, Cheverny and Angers are among the main ones that I forgot.
Fougères sur Bièvres, La ferté-Saint-Aubin "seem" medium as well,
etc...
PS : I made a confusion between the keeps of Montrichard and Beaugency.
My END !!
didier Meurgues


    > didier Meurgues
    > > in Italy and Spain I have seen much better castles.
    > >
    > > Also they are greatly restored (or maybe a better term would be
    > > rebuilt) and in a awfull way. The forniture is mainly from other
    > > places, other styles, with brigh-red-new-tapicery.
    > >
    > > In Italy normally when the original forniture and tapicery get lost,
    > > they leave the room empty, here in Loire Valley they buy some false
    > > peaces in a street market and make a false "as it was".
    > > Valeria

didier Meurgues

didier Meurgues a écrit :

    > didier Meurgues a écrit :
    > > [email protected] a écrit :
    > >
    > > > Hallo,
    > > > I was in the Loire Valley this summer, and i must say I was quite
    > > > deceptioned.
    > >
    > > I'm wondering if valeria is german (hallo) or italian.
    > >
    > > In fact I understand her a little. the Loire chateaux are (were) mainly
    > > familial castles of small (Azay, Ussé, Talcy, Montsoreau...) or medium
    > > size (Valencay, Saumur, Chaumont, Tanlay, Brissac, Plessis-Bourré...)
    > > but rarely big like Chambord, Chateaudun, Chinon ruins, Blois, compared
    > > with italian big city palaces and fortress generally highly decorated
    > > with frescoes, and they are rarely perfectly restored like german
    > > manucured castles, which have sometimes a less authentical aspect in
    > > fact (coatings). But the Loire chateaux are extremely varied in shape
    > > (less in decoration except by periods) and VERY numerous in such a
    > > small area. That's mainly what makes the interest of the region.
    > > When they "are" royal like Chambord, Blois, Loches, Amboise, Chinon,
    > > Plessis-les-Tours, etc... they can have suffered destructions like the
    > > last 3, notably during the revolution (particularly pitifull for
    > > Amboise ; Tours castle has virtually disappeared ; the most important
    > > loss are the non royal completely rased Richelieu and Chanteloup) and
    > > are often partly empty since the Court was mooving with its furnitures
    > > in the 16th c. Consequently the royal ones have been "refurnished"
    > > (remeublés) with difficulty and incompletly, notably Chambord, despite
    > > praiseworthy but still insuficient efforts in Blois (where you find on
    > > the contrary one of the best recent restoration of the exteriors), and
    > > a greater success in Amboise (which is one of the most evocative).
    > > The smaller familial chateaux generally present authentical exteriors,
    > > as well as some sculpted decorations inside like the royal ones, and
    > > generally have kept their familial furnitures. The notion of
    > > "originality" is a bit useless in familial chateaux used during
    > > centuries and furnished according to the needs until the 19th c. These
    > > furnitures are often of a "bourgeois" level and rarely exceptional, but
    > > sometimes of a good level (contrary to what was said in another post I
    > > include Chenonceaux, valencay, etc... in these ones but can't make a
    > > precise list since I can't remember very well). Sometimes they worth
    > > for a special thing like the gardens of Villandry or the sites of
    > > Chaumont (both interiors are of the bourgeois kind) and Chenonceaux,
    > > for writers like Ussé, Talcy, Saché, La Devinière, etc... Sometimes
    > > some less harmonious restorations of the exteriors (windows generally)
    > > or of the interiors (palais Jacques Coeur) have been done in the 19th
    > > c. But that's uncommon. This is unfortunately much more the case of the
    > > houses surrounding them... (above all for a german) since they are
    > > generally found in villages or in little cities without homogeneous and
    > > "large" old districts like in Italy, with some exceptions nevertheless
    > > (Chinon, Loches, Blois, Saumur, less in Amboise, etc...). Sometimes
    > > some castles, notably municipal ones, are cared with less taste that
    > > they would have been by a family, like Leangais despite the value of
    > > its furnitures..., Beaugency keep, etc... Sometimes a small castle is
    > > bigger like Montreuil-Bellay, Meung or more interesting like Meillant,
    > > (Palluau near my parent's home : but don't make a detour !) that you
    > > would have expected.
    > > In fact there are extremely VARIED situations in the Loire valley
    > > because of the castles and manors number and their various kind of
    > > gestion (I don't know exactly how many they are but I can alone make a
    > > list of 50, by memory...).
    > http://www.routard.com/guide_carte/c...e_la_loire.htm
    > On the map of this website about 25 black rectangles and about 30 of
    > the white spots (of cities and abbeys) show in fact more than 50
    > castles sites, but the manors are not included and I know a bit more
    > not mentionned ones like Montreuil-Bellay, Le Moulin, Le Rivau, Le
    > Plessis-Macé, Le Plessis-Bourré

Menars and Montsoreau as well, etc...

or in my departement of origin at the
    > very limit of the Loire valley influence (tuffeau white stone) L'Isle
    > Savary, Argy, Palluau, etc... The Berry (down the map) counts as well
    > many castles. Clic on the map to enlarge.
    > Sully, Cheverny and Angers are among the main ones that I forgot.
    > Fougères sur Bièvres, La ferté-Saint-Aubin "seem" medium as well,
    > etc...
    > PS : I made a confusion between the keeps of Montrichard and Beaugency.
    > My END !!
    > didier Meurgues
    > > didier Meurgues
    > >
    > > > in Italy and Spain I have seen much better castles.
    > > >
    > > > Also they are greatly restored (or maybe a better term would be
    > > > rebuilt) and in a awfull way. The forniture is mainly from other
    > > > places, other styles, with brigh-red-new-tapicery.
    > > >
    > > > In Italy normally when the original forniture and tapicery get lost,
    > > > they leave the room empty, here in Loire Valley they buy some false
    > > > peaces in a street market and make a false "as it was".
    > > > Valeria