>Of course, you COULD do as others do with threads that don't interest
    >them - simply ignore them instead of complaining about them! (Or is
    >that too simple for your lofty intellect?)
Shortly, I will visit you at your home. In case you don't like that, just don't
look at me. :-)
I do ignore lots of threads in this NG, related to some parts of Europe i'm not
interested in. Others are and i''m just happy with that. But i do expect travel
related discussions over here and nothing else.


--
Peter Koster
Het Hurktoilet, reisgids voor Frankrijk
http://www.hurktoilet.nl

I can't help noticing the contrast with other travel newsgroups, for
example fr.rec.voyages, where this sort of political blather (I won't
dignify it with the word "discussion") is completely absent.

Not a single smidgen of an iota of trace of an inkling of anti-U.S.
sentiment. Just a lot of people talking about travel. Weird.

[email protected] (Peter Hartikka) wrote:

    >I can't help noticing the contrast with other travel newsgroups, for
    >example fr.rec.voyages, where this sort of political blather (I won't
    >dignify it with the word "discussion") is completely absent.
    >Not a single smidgen of an iota of trace of an inkling of anti-U.S.
    >sentiment. Just a lot of people talking about travel. Weird.

Oh dear. You seem to be objecting to anti-US sentiment, but make no
complaint about anti-European sentiment. Are you blind in one eye?

PB

le 23 Feb 2003 06:40:44 -0800, dans l'article , Peter Hartikka a dit ...

    > I can't help noticing the contrast with other travel newsgroups, for
    > example fr.rec.voyages, where this sort of political blather (I won't
    > dignify it with the word "discussion") is completely absent.
    >
    > Not a single smidgen of an iota of trace of an inkling of anti-U.S.
    > sentiment. Just a lot of people talking about travel. Weird.

As I have pointed out, the _overwhelming_ majority of 'bashing' in this
newsgroup, comes from Americans 'bashing' France. Earl just posted to
news:alt.activism.death-penalty concerning this, and I take the liberty of
reproducing his article here ...

--------

The Journal du Dimanche published todya the following poll

"With regard to the Iraqi war which of the following
would best describe your feeling"

1) You like Americans but are favorable to entering
into Iraq ------------------------------------------------ 6%

2) You like Americans but are not favorable to entering
into Iraq --------------------------------------------- 70%

3) You don`t like Americans and are not favorable to
entering Iraq ---------------------------------------------- 15%

4) You don`t like Americans but are favorable to entering
Iraq ---------------------------------------------------------2%

5) No opinion ---------------------------------------------------7%


***

Comment: I have remarked before that it is part of French
culture to be able to disagree with somebody and like them.
My experience of 40 years has been that anti-Americanism is not
a major problem in France. There is no, for instance,
equivalent to www.****france.com on the web that I have found.


Another study, somewhat more complete:

(http://perso.club-internet.fr/hwelty...cultural2.html)

The attitude of the French toward the USA (according to a comprehensive
study by the French-American Foundation in May 2000 analyzed by SOFRES/ Le
Monde Jan.6, 2002, partly translated below) :

There are fewer anti-Americans than pro-Americans in France but they are
more politically active (on the left) and vocal than the pro-Americans.
(this is illustrated by another recent poll also sponsored by the
French-American Foundation).


Globally the French feel a relative sympathy (41%) toward America even if
the most largely felt feeling is no strong feeling (49% feel neither
sympathy nor antipathy) and only 9% antipathy. Objective allies of the USA,
the French do not perceive globalization as an instrument of American power
but more as a phenomenon which benefits developed countries over the
interests of the poorest countries. They admit the efficiency of the USA in
modern economy but think that France performs better on issues like social
protection, education or integration of immigrants. The survey leads to a
typology of attitudes, based on three questions : sympathy toward America,
considering America primarily as a partner or an adversary and judging its
influence (excessive, insufficient or raising no problem) in each of the
following domains : TV programs, movies, new technologies, music, economic
ideas, language, advertising, food, clothes. Four categories emerge from
this typology, with two of them very structured : the anti-Americans and the
pros, and two varying between indifference and distant sympathy.


* Real anti-Americans represent 10% of the population. They consider
themselves hostile to the Americans, considering them more as adversaries
than partners and judging their influence excessive in culture, lifestyle,
economy and international relations. For them, the USA can be summarized in
four words : violence, inequalities, racism and imperialism. Liberty and
dynamism of the country are never mentioned. They see in US international
policy only a way to impose its will on the rest of the world and do not
credit it the will to maintain peace in the world or help the development of
democracy in emerging countries. While criticizing the US power, this
hostile group also criticizes the weaknesses of the American system. They
think that in the USA, education, integration of immigrants, policies
against unemployment, safety and the fight against criminality, public
transport and social protection do not work as well as in France. They
acknowledge US superiority only for new technologies and universities. To
hierarchize the criticisms of this group against the USA, one must note the
importance of the cultural field (read about "exception culturelle"). The
negative influence of the USA on TV programs, movies, language and music is
particularly stressed. It is clear that the threat to national identity is a
key factor of anti-Americanism, more than economic or military competition,
for which this group is resigned to seeing France playing a secondary role.
Contrary to what people think about the alleged anti-Americanism of the
upper and intellectual class, this structured group of opponents to the USA
is primarily composed of lower middle class and clerks, i.e. the part of the
middle class more reluctant to economic and social change. This group
represents only 25% of the French society but 40% of the group the most
hostile to the USA. Upper and upper middle class are not over-represented in
this group, working class and retirees are largely under-represented. It is
clear that this group has a strong interest in political matters, more than
the rest of the French population. Voters on the left are a majority (more
than 50% of the group vs. 20% for the right and 30% for people expressing no
political preference). The strength of the anti-Americans resides more in
their level of politization and their capacity to express publicly their
views than in their number.

* Pro-Americans : America has many more supporters than opponents in
France. More than a quarter of the population expresses total sympathy for
the USA, a country they consider as a partner with no excessive influence on
our daily life. More remarkably, pro-Americanism goes along with a real
confidence in Europe existing with the USA. A majority of the supporters
think that in twenty years, Europe will be more powerful than the USA. This
opinion leads them to believe in the capacity of France, and more largely
Europe, to resist foreign influences. The group adds to that gratitude
toward the allies of World War II (the group is composed of older people).
Pro-Americans are clearly politically to the right (in the group 45% right,
33% left, 22% with no political preferences) and their interest in political
matters is similar to that of the average French population's.

* Between the pro and the anti-Americans is the majority of the
population. For two thirds of the population, the attitude toward the USA
ranges from " sympathetic rivalry " (15%) to " pragmatic indifference "
(50%). They can be critical on certain points but are never hostile. America
does not interest them much and is a distant continent. It is on them that
anti-Americans, politically active but not very numerous, can have an
influence in the years to come ; for the pro-Americans, less active
politically and more reluctant to express publicly their views, it is hard
to fight, in spite of their much larger number.

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

"Peter (http://www.hurktoilet.nl)" wrote:
    >
    > >Of course, you COULD do as others do with threads that don't interest
    > >them - simply ignore them instead of complaining about them! (Or is
    > >that too simple for your lofty intellect?)
    > Shortly, I will visit you at your home. In case you don't like that, just don't
    > look at me. :-)

Totally inappropriate analogy - unwelcome newsgroup posts are more in
the nature of telephone calls. (In which case, you either hang up on
the telemarketers, or let your answering machine screen calls and just
don't answer unless you choose.)

    > I do ignore lots of threads in this NG, related to some parts of Europe i'm not
    > interested in. Others are and i''m just happy with that. But i do expect travel
    > related discussions over here and nothing else.

In that case, I think you're unbelievably naive! (Or have you missed
all the discussions about totally unrelated subjects that many threads
drift into?) The more recent digressions are certainly not the only
political discussions thaqt have taken place here. Over the years, I
recall reading discussions about Austrian elections, British elections,
French elections..... (and of course our own little circus in the fall
of 2000). People who travel are generally interested in the world
around them - that means they want to comment about events affecting
that world, to discuss them within the group in which they feel most
comfortable, and with people they feel they've come to know.

Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    >
    > [email protected] (Peter Hartikka) wrote:
    >
    > >I can't help noticing the contrast with other travel newsgroups, for
    > >example fr.rec.voyages, where this sort of political blather (I won't
    > >dignify it with the word "discussion") is completely absent.
    > >
    > >Not a single smidgen of an iota of trace of an inkling of anti-U.S.
    > >sentiment. Just a lot of people talking about travel. Weird.
    >
    > Oh dear. You seem to be objecting to anti-US sentiment, but make no
    > complaint about anti-European sentiment. Are you blind in one eye?

Touche! I was assuming from his name that he was European (Finnish,
maybe?), but with comments like that..... ("American" names can have so
many different national origins!)
    >
    > PB

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:16:42 -0800, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:

    >Touche! I was assuming from his name that he was European (Finnish,
    >maybe?), but with comments like that..... ("American" names can have so
    >many different national origins!)

Hee hee.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *