rail passes question!
Jun 24th 2005 | 6:20 am
#16
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Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
Lennart Petersen <[email protected]> wrote:
> But here we're talking about rules for rail passes. The rules for Eurail
> as well as Interrail and EuroDomino is what's counting is where you're
> residing and that's in turn counting for the last 6 months. So if you can
> proof that you're residing, not necessarily being a citizen , outside Europe
> for that period you're eligible for Eurail, if not for Interrail.
> Possibly you can find out how to cheat the rules but that doesn't matter so
> much as the railways usually are more than happy if you've paid for the
> ticket :-)
Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
simplest solution here.
--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
> But here we're talking about rules for rail passes. The rules for Eurail
> as well as Interrail and EuroDomino is what's counting is where you're
> residing and that's in turn counting for the last 6 months. So if you can
> proof that you're residing, not necessarily being a citizen , outside Europe
> for that period you're eligible for Eurail, if not for Interrail.
> Possibly you can find out how to cheat the rules but that doesn't matter so
> much as the railways usually are more than happy if you've paid for the
> ticket :-)
Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
simplest solution here.
--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
Jun 24th 2005 | 6:36 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
Juliana L Holm wrote:
>
> Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
> into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
> which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
> simplest solution here.
>
The US _requires_ that its dual-nationals use their US passports when
entering and leaving the US.
>
> Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
> into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
> which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
> simplest solution here.
>
The US _requires_ that its dual-nationals use their US passports when
entering and leaving the US.
Jun 24th 2005 | 6:38 am
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
S Viemeister <[email protected]> wrote:
> Juliana L Holm wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
>> into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
>> which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
>> simplest solution here.
>>
> The US _requires_ that its dual-nationals use their US passports when
> entering and leaving the US.
There you go. The OP must have his US Passport with him. So he might as well
use it to validate the railpass.
--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
> Juliana L Holm wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
>> into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
>> which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
>> simplest solution here.
>>
> The US _requires_ that its dual-nationals use their US passports when
> entering and leaving the US.
There you go. The OP must have his US Passport with him. So he might as well
use it to validate the railpass.
--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
Jun 24th 2005 | 8:01 am
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
"John Bermont" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]...
> Jean S. Barto wrote:
>> Hi folks--
>> I have a question about the *fine print* of the Eurail passes. I live in
>> the USA and am a US citizen. I also hold a Republic of Ireland passport
>> due
>> to applying for it a few years ago (my grandfather was born there and I
>> was
>> able to apply for Irish citizenship based on that. So, technically I
>> suppose that makes me a *dual national*--however, my main residence is
>> the
>> USA and I have never lived in Ireland
>> When I go to Europe next spring I'd like to travel on my Irish passport.
>> Am
>> I able to use a Eurail pass while using an EU passport? I'm not really
>> sure
>> how long I'll be in Europe, but would be 2 to 3 months, maybe more--but
>> perhaps not enough time to be in Europe long enough to establish
>> residency
>> anywhere there. Im asking this question because I havent seen it
>> addresed
>> anywhere else.
>> Thanks,
>> Jean in VA
> All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
> them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass. Conductors may
> request to see your passport to verify that you are the person entitled to
> the rail pass. Showing an Irish passport would probably result in having
> your rail pass confiscated.
Not at all. What's counting is where you're permanently residing not your
citizenship.
assuming you've an European passport you must provide some proof to the
seller that you're eligible. Once you've paid,received and validated the
railpass it's o.k , you've to on request proof that you're same person as
written on the pass but that's all.
news:[email protected]...
> Jean S. Barto wrote:
>> Hi folks--
>> I have a question about the *fine print* of the Eurail passes. I live in
>> the USA and am a US citizen. I also hold a Republic of Ireland passport
>> due
>> to applying for it a few years ago (my grandfather was born there and I
>> was
>> able to apply for Irish citizenship based on that. So, technically I
>> suppose that makes me a *dual national*--however, my main residence is
>> the
>> USA and I have never lived in Ireland
>> When I go to Europe next spring I'd like to travel on my Irish passport.
>> Am
>> I able to use a Eurail pass while using an EU passport? I'm not really
>> sure
>> how long I'll be in Europe, but would be 2 to 3 months, maybe more--but
>> perhaps not enough time to be in Europe long enough to establish
>> residency
>> anywhere there. Im asking this question because I havent seen it
>> addresed
>> anywhere else.
>> Thanks,
>> Jean in VA
> All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
> them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass. Conductors may
> request to see your passport to verify that you are the person entitled to
> the rail pass. Showing an Irish passport would probably result in having
> your rail pass confiscated.
Not at all. What's counting is where you're permanently residing not your
citizenship.
assuming you've an European passport you must provide some proof to the
seller that you're eligible. Once you've paid,received and validated the
railpass it's o.k , you've to on request proof that you're same person as
written on the pass but that's all.
Jun 24th 2005 | 8:37 am
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
Jean S. Barto <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for the advice, everyone--guess I'll have to carry both passports
> with me during my trip, and be prepared to present my US passport on the
> train as required--and use the Irish passport at passport control (whichever
> ones are left) as required.
You must have your real passport with you anyway, because if you are a US
citizen (even if you are also a citizen of some other country) holding a US
passport it is illegal to enter the US by showing any other passport.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan
> Thanks for the advice, everyone--guess I'll have to carry both passports
> with me during my trip, and be prepared to present my US passport on the
> train as required--and use the Irish passport at passport control (whichever
> ones are left) as required.
You must have your real passport with you anyway, because if you are a US
citizen (even if you are also a citizen of some other country) holding a US
passport it is illegal to enter the US by showing any other passport.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan
Jun 24th 2005 | 9:01 am
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:23:53 GMT, John Bermont
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Jean S. Barto wrote:
>> Hi folks--
>>
>> I have a question about the *fine print* of the Eurail passes. I live in
>> the USA and am a US citizen. I also hold a Republic of Ireland passport due
>> to applying for it a few years ago (my grandfather was born there and I was
>> able to apply for Irish citizenship based on that. So, technically I
>> suppose that makes me a *dual national*--however, my main residence is the
>> USA and I have never lived in Ireland
>>
>> When I go to Europe next spring I'd like to travel on my Irish passport. Am
>> I able to use a Eurail pass while using an EU passport? I'm not really sure
>> how long I'll be in Europe, but would be 2 to 3 months, maybe more--but
>> perhaps not enough time to be in Europe long enough to establish residency
>> anywhere there. Im asking this question because I havent seen it addresed
>> anywhere else.
>All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass.
Odd, that. When I bought our Eurailpasses over the Web from
www.railpass.com they didn't have our passport numbers on them. I
don't believe we even had our passports then, and I know they
didn't ask for them. Perhaps if you buy them over the counter?
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Jean S. Barto wrote:
>> Hi folks--
>>
>> I have a question about the *fine print* of the Eurail passes. I live in
>> the USA and am a US citizen. I also hold a Republic of Ireland passport due
>> to applying for it a few years ago (my grandfather was born there and I was
>> able to apply for Irish citizenship based on that. So, technically I
>> suppose that makes me a *dual national*--however, my main residence is the
>> USA and I have never lived in Ireland
>>
>> When I go to Europe next spring I'd like to travel on my Irish passport. Am
>> I able to use a Eurail pass while using an EU passport? I'm not really sure
>> how long I'll be in Europe, but would be 2 to 3 months, maybe more--but
>> perhaps not enough time to be in Europe long enough to establish residency
>> anywhere there. Im asking this question because I havent seen it addresed
>> anywhere else.
>All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass.
Odd, that. When I bought our Eurailpasses over the Web from
www.railpass.com they didn't have our passport numbers on them. I
don't believe we even had our passports then, and I know they
didn't ask for them. Perhaps if you buy them over the counter?
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jun 24th 2005 | 9:02 am
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:26:59 -0500, [email protected] (Miguel Cruz)
wrote:
>John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
>> All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>> them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass. Conductors may
>> request to see your passport to verify that you are the person entitled
>> to the rail pass.
>And have you ever seen them look for more than 1/4 of a second?
Yes. But that was nine years ago.
>> Showing an Irish passport would probably result in having your rail pass
>> confiscated.
>You really think so? Really? When about when you turn around and produce a
>US passport, in this highly fantastical scenario? Or will they already have
>burned the pass in the aisle by then?
Assuming you're smart enough to then present your US passport,
except if you were that smart you wouldn't have presented your
Irish passport in the first place.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
wrote:
>John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
>> All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>> them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass. Conductors may
>> request to see your passport to verify that you are the person entitled
>> to the rail pass.
>And have you ever seen them look for more than 1/4 of a second?
Yes. But that was nine years ago.
>> Showing an Irish passport would probably result in having your rail pass
>> confiscated.
>You really think so? Really? When about when you turn around and produce a
>US passport, in this highly fantastical scenario? Or will they already have
>burned the pass in the aisle by then?
Assuming you're smart enough to then present your US passport,
except if you were that smart you wouldn't have presented your
Irish passport in the first place.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jun 24th 2005 | 9:08 am
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:36:15 -0400, S Viemeister
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Juliana L Holm wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
>> into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
>> which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
>> simplest solution here.
>>
>The US _requires_ that its dual-nationals use their US passports when
>entering and leaving the US.
Besides, if they don't, they'll have to leave the USA in 90 days.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Juliana L Holm wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me that using the US Passport (which the OP will need to get back
>> into the US, since with the Irish Passport he'd also need proof of residency,
>> which he presumably does not have as a US Citizen) to validate the pass is the
>> simplest solution here.
>>
>The US _requires_ that its dual-nationals use their US passports when
>entering and leaving the US.
Besides, if they don't, they'll have to leave the USA in 90 days.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jun 24th 2005 | 10:05 am
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
Jean S. Barto wrote:
> Hi folks--
>
> I have a question about the *fine print* of the Eurail passes. I live in
> the USA and am a US citizen. I also hold a Republic of Ireland passport due
> to applying for it a few years ago (my grandfather was born there and I was
> able to apply for Irish citizenship based on that. So, technically I
> suppose that makes me a *dual national*--however, my main residence is the
> USA and I have never lived in Ireland
>
> When I go to Europe next spring I'd like to travel on my Irish passport. Am
> I able to use a Eurail pass while using an EU passport? I'm not really sure
> how long I'll be in Europe, but would be 2 to 3 months, maybe more--but
> perhaps not enough time to be in Europe long enough to establish residency
> anywhere there. Im asking this question because I havent seen it addresed
> anywhere else.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jean in VA
>
I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
passport?
--
------------------------------------------------------
* * * Mastering Independent Budget Travel * * *
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/
------------------------------------------------------
> Hi folks--
>
> I have a question about the *fine print* of the Eurail passes. I live in
> the USA and am a US citizen. I also hold a Republic of Ireland passport due
> to applying for it a few years ago (my grandfather was born there and I was
> able to apply for Irish citizenship based on that. So, technically I
> suppose that makes me a *dual national*--however, my main residence is the
> USA and I have never lived in Ireland
>
> When I go to Europe next spring I'd like to travel on my Irish passport. Am
> I able to use a Eurail pass while using an EU passport? I'm not really sure
> how long I'll be in Europe, but would be 2 to 3 months, maybe more--but
> perhaps not enough time to be in Europe long enough to establish residency
> anywhere there. Im asking this question because I havent seen it addresed
> anywhere else.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jean in VA
>
I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
passport?
--
------------------------------------------------------
* * * Mastering Independent Budget Travel * * *
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/
------------------------------------------------------
Jun 24th 2005 | 1:05 pm
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
>> travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
>> passport?
> Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
> Europe as long as you liked.
Didn't the OP say they were only going to be in Europe for 2-3 months? I
think they just thought it would be neat-o to use a European passport.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan
> John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
>> travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
>> passport?
> Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
> Europe as long as you liked.
Didn't the OP say they were only going to be in Europe for 2-3 months? I
think they just thought it would be neat-o to use a European passport.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan
Jun 24th 2005 | 1:32 pm
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:05:00 GMT, John Bermont
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
>travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
>passport?
Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
Europe as long as you liked.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
>travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
>passport?
Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
Europe as long as you liked.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jun 24th 2005 | 1:46 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
In rec.travel.europe Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>>them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass.
> Odd, that. When I bought our Eurailpasses over the Web from
> www.railpass.com they didn't have our passport numbers on them. I
> don't believe we even had our passports then, and I know they
> didn't ask for them. Perhaps if you buy them over the counter?
I cannot vouch for Eurail as I have never used them. I have, however, used
German Rail passes which I got with no passport number on them. The first
time I used them, they put the passport number on them.
--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
>>All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>>them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass.
> Odd, that. When I bought our Eurailpasses over the Web from
> www.railpass.com they didn't have our passport numbers on them. I
> don't believe we even had our passports then, and I know they
> didn't ask for them. Perhaps if you buy them over the counter?
I cannot vouch for Eurail as I have never used them. I have, however, used
German Rail passes which I got with no passport number on them. The first
time I used them, they put the passport number on them.
--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
Jun 24th 2005 | 3:01 pm
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
Miguel Cruz wrote:
>
> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
> >> travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
> >> passport?
> >
> > Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
> > Europe as long as you liked.
>
> Didn't the OP say they were only going to be in Europe for 2-3 months? I
> think they just thought it would be neat-o to use a European passport.
>
It also can save time at Immigration.
>
> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want to
> >> travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
> >> passport?
> >
> > Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
> > Europe as long as you liked.
>
> Didn't the OP say they were only going to be in Europe for 2-3 months? I
> think they just thought it would be neat-o to use a European passport.
>
It also can save time at Immigration.
Jun 24th 2005 | 3:43 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
I want to use the Irish passport now that I have it, and like others have
said, an EU passport saves time when I would be going through immigration
checks--and, although I anticipate having a shorter trip, I could also
decide to stay longer--and the EU passport would help in that instance.
I guess there is no legal way to get around taking the US passport with
me--since I am supposed to enter and leave the US on it--and then also for
on the train in case they want to see it in conjunction with my rail pass.
Jean in VA
"S Viemeister" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Miguel Cruz wrote:
> >
> > Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want
to
> > >> travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
> > >> passport?
> > >
> > > Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
> > > Europe as long as you liked.
> >
> > Didn't the OP say they were only going to be in Europe for 2-3 months? I
> > think they just thought it would be neat-o to use a European passport.
> >
> It also can save time at Immigration.
said, an EU passport saves time when I would be going through immigration
checks--and, although I anticipate having a shorter trip, I could also
decide to stay longer--and the EU passport would help in that instance.
I guess there is no legal way to get around taking the US passport with
me--since I am supposed to enter and leave the US on it--and then also for
on the train in case they want to see it in conjunction with my rail pass.
Jean in VA
"S Viemeister" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Miguel Cruz wrote:
> >
> > Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > John Bermont <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> I don't know if anybody above asked the obvious: Why would you want
to
> > >> travel on an Irish passport since you are an American and hold a USA
> > >> passport?
> > >
> > > Among other possible reasons, it would permit you to stay in
> > > Europe as long as you liked.
> >
> > Didn't the OP say they were only going to be in Europe for 2-3 months? I
> > think they just thought it would be neat-o to use a European passport.
> >
> It also can save time at Immigration.
Jun 24th 2005 | 4:28 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: rail passes question!
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:46:19 +0000 (UTC), Juliana L Holm
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In rec.travel.europe Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>>>them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass.
>> Odd, that. When I bought our Eurailpasses over the Web from
>> www.railpass.com they didn't have our passport numbers on them. I
>> don't believe we even had our passports then, and I know they
>> didn't ask for them. Perhaps if you buy them over the counter?
>I cannot vouch for Eurail as I have never used them. I have, however, used
>German Rail passes which I got with no passport number on them. The first
>time I used them, they put the passport number on them.
Huh. The German rail passes are available to all comers so why
would a passport even be necessary?
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In rec.travel.europe Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>All of the rail passes I have purchased have had my passport number on
>>>them. It is written in by the agency selling the pass.
>> Odd, that. When I bought our Eurailpasses over the Web from
>> www.railpass.com they didn't have our passport numbers on them. I
>> don't believe we even had our passports then, and I know they
>> didn't ask for them. Perhaps if you buy them over the counter?
>I cannot vouch for Eurail as I have never used them. I have, however, used
>German Rail passes which I got with no passport number on them. The first
>time I used them, they put the passport number on them.
Huh. The German rail passes are available to all comers so why
would a passport even be necessary?
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
