David Horne

Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:56:38 +0100,
    > [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
    > the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
    >
    > >I would say that for someone who can't be bothered looking up public
    > >transport options, can't be bothered designing their itinerary around
    > >them, and absolutely believes that the only comfortable option for
    > >seeing the countryside is in their car, then yes, the car is the only
    > >practicable option.�
    > >
    > >And for what it's worth, yes, there are places which PT will make it
    > >_very_ difficult to get to, though rarely not possible. I'm happy to
    > >leave most of them to the rest of nature, and the kind of person� who
    > >simply can't rid them themselves of the car.
    >
    > There's some weird shit happening with your keyboard David. These
    > funny � characters keep creeping in.

I noticed after I posted. Nothing happening with my keyboard- just me
forgetting to change some of the modifier key settings on the wireless
setup.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org

Dave Frightens Me

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:56:38 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    >I would say that for someone who can't be bothered looking up public
    >transport options, can't be bothered designing their itinerary around
    >them, and absolutely believes that the only comfortable option for
    >seeing the countryside is in their car, then yes, the car is the only
    >practicable option.�
    >And for what it's worth, yes, there are places which PT will make it
    >_very_ difficult to get to, though rarely not possible. I'm happy to
    >leave most of them to the rest of nature, and the kind of person� who
    >simply can't rid them themselves of the car.

There's some weird shit happening with your keyboard David. These
funny � characters keep creeping in.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Mike Reid

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:56:38 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    > I'm happy to
    >leave most of them to the rest of nature, and the kind of person� who
    >simply can't rid them themselves of the car.

OK, you are willing to not go to many of the "wild" places. If you
just said you were making such a stand and left it there you would get
some agreement and respect, when you argue it is *practical* to get to
the hills at the far end of long deserted glens without a car you just
get a bit of a row.

Perhaps we should move on as someone suggested, you loathe cars with a
passion I have not come across before (except possibly Jeremy
Clarkeson and buses), I like driving and my interests all revolve
around just the places you cant get to on PT, so we wont agree on
anything in this area.
BTW this years F1 is going down to the line, try and catch the final
race in a couple of weeks.
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Mike Reid

On 6 Oct 2006 08:19:27 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >> This is really boring,
    >Agreed.
    >Maybe the solution would be to LET IT DROP, and accept that what suits
    >one person will not automatically suit another?

It certainly is boring, I think it would be better to acknowledge that
cars work well in sparsely populated areas and PT well in densely
populated and there's a need for both.
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Mike Reid

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:47:25 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    >> I haven't relied on Post Office Transportation to get me places
    >> since hiking near Ullapool in my impoverished student days.
    >You couldn't have been hiking if you didn't take the car. Maybe it was
    >just third grade hiking?

its a simple fact that remote Scottish hills are hard to get to by PT
and easy by car. You don't want to concede anything can possibly be
more efficient by car so you end with this sort of boring argument.
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Mike Reid

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:56:38 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    >> Walking in the hills is my specialist subject.
    >Public transport clearly isn't.
    >> The Ochils are second
    >> or third grade hills.
    >I don't know what that means in this specialist subject language. Have
    >you actually climbed them?

I haven't bothered yet, but don't think I don't have lots of books and
can read OS maps well enough to make judgments on where the best hills
are.

    >I stand completely by what I say- they are
    >excellent hiking.

They are "all right", they don't compare with the mountains further
north, any hillwalker will tell you that.

    >> If you want to miss all the best hills and just
    >> do the ones near towns reachable by bus, fine. If you must use PT you
    >> can probably lose a day of the trip and get to (say) Glencoe or the
    >> Cluanie and stay there, but even then you will have some massive walk
    >> ins to the individual hills. Probably more than is possible for non
    >> "hard men of the hills".
    >>
    >> Take the example of Teide, theres three ways of getting there. A bus,
    >> which IIRC runs a couple of times a day at "social" times, a tourist
    >> coach, which runs "civilised" hours too, or a car. Only the car will
    >> get you on the hill an hour before dawn,
    >This is really boring,

I agree!

    >and Teide isn't in Scotland, and if the OP needs
    >to get 'on the hill' an hour before dawn, I'm sure they can let you
    >know.

There isnt one rule for Scotland and a different one elsewhere, a
mountain is a mountain and you often need to be off at dawn if you
dont want to end up benighted.

    >As even you have noticed, miraculously, you see hikers in Scotland
    >who don't rely on dirty cars. You seem to have noticed only the ones
    >hitching a lift though.

Nope, I pointed out there was no way to get back without a car in a
specific case.

    >As a teenager, our school hiking club got round
    >the 'can't get there in a day by PT' by staying in a youth hostel or
    >something the night before.

Exactly, you can sometimes do it by PT if you have three times as much
time at your disposal. Many of the Scottish hills have no YH or
anything much in close range of the hill, so its a multi day camping
expedition instead of a one day walk. some its a multi day camping
trip *with* a car!
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

David Horne

Mike Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:56:38 +0100,
    > [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
    > the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
    >
    > >> Walking in the hills is my specialist subject.
    > >
    > >Public transport clearly isn't.
    > >
    > >> The Ochils are second
    > >> or third grade hills.
    > >
    > >I don't know what that means in this specialist subject language. Have
    > >you actually climbed them?
    >
    > I haven't bothered yet,

Then you should shut up about them.

    > >I stand completely by what I say- they are
    > >excellent hiking.
    >
    > They are "all right", they don't compare with the mountains further
    > north, any hillwalker will tell you that.

Uh, I go up hills too. When do I get to call myself a hillwalker- when I
go by car? The only difference in this discussion is that I've been up
the Ochils, and you haven't. In the Ochils, just the climb up Ben Law
(not the highest) alone is a pretty good hike compared to some Munroes.
Yes, there are bigger hills and mountains, and many are more impressive-
but it doesn't detract from the experience of climbing up the Ochils.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org

David Horne

Mike Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:47:25 +0100,
    > [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
    > the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
    >
    > >> I haven't relied on Post Office Transportation to get me places
    > >> since hiking near Ullapool in my impoverished student days.
    > >
    > >You couldn't have been hiking if you didn't take the car. Maybe it was
    > >just third grade hiking?
    >
    > its a simple fact that remote Scottish hills are hard to get to by PT
    > and easy by car.

I thought it was an impossiblity a few posts back.

    > You don't want to concede anything can possibly be
    > more efficient by car so you end with this sort of boring argument.

I've always conceded that the car is often faster and easier, in fact.
You're making things up to support _your_ argument now.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org

David Horne

Mike Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:56:38 +0100,
    > [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
    > the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
    >
    > > I'm happy to
    > >leave most of them to the rest of nature, and the kind of person� who
    > >simply can't rid them themselves of the car.
    >
    > OK, you are willing to not go to many of the "wild" places. If you
    > just said you were making such a stand and left it there you would get
    > some agreement and respect,

I'm not looking for respect, but you shouldn't pontificate about hills
you haven't been up- it's the kind of thing munroe baggers come out
with.

Oh, and I made exactly this point (about choosing not to go to some
places) last time this came up.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org

Mike Reid

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:33:23 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    >> I haven't bothered yet,
    >Then you should shut up about them.

No, I can read descriptions of hills I haven't done by authors whose
descriptions I have read of hills I have done. I can look at the
1:50000 and 1:25000 maps and interpret them.
There are one or two tops I haven't visited in the ELD, I probably
never will, because they are dull and I'm not collecting "ticks". I
may get to the Ochills one day, I probably wont as hills like Slioch
hold more attraction.
But none of this is the point, you're point of view is "I'm happy
doing only the hills with PT", mine is "I want to do the best hills I
can drag myself up", you then say you can get to the hills without a
car, which is true from your point of view but not from mine or the
general understanding of those words.

    >> >I stand completely by what I say- they are
    >> >excellent hiking.
    >>
    >> They are "all right", they don't compare with the mountains further
    >> north, any hillwalker will tell you that.
    >Uh, I go up hills too. When do I get to call myself a hillwalker

Have you any red socks? If yes you can call yourself a rambler.
To qualify as a hillwalker you need a squashed Mars bar in the bottom
of your rucksack, you must know who AW was and hold strong opinions
about GPS, you must never prefix a hill name with "Mount" and you must
walk "in" the hills not up them. Use of the term "fine mountaineering
expedition" must be used only with irony. You must be able to ramble
on for hours about the elevation and demotion of tops and summits by
the self appointed authorities.

To qualify as a "hard man of the hills" you need tousled hair, a beard
and a bobbly jacket, your tent must be coffin size and you should have
lost at least one digit to frostbite, there is another definition but
we wont go there.....

    >- when I go by car?

I went to a lot of trouble to point out a few hillwalkers have
completed the Munros without cars.

    >The only difference in this discussion is that I've been up
    >the Ochils, and you haven't.

Another difference might be that ive been up some of the hills far
from PT that are more impressive than the Ochills, if we are being
bitchy

    >In the Ochils, just the climb up Ben Law
    >(not the highest) alone is a pretty good hike compared to some Munroes.

Ever since I was put down by the SMC for writing Munroe when I was
asking about copyright issues for my software I've been waiting for a
chance to say "och, theres no e in Munro, laddie!"

    >Yes, there are bigger hills and mountains, and many are more impressive-
    >but it doesn't detract from the experience of climbing up the Ochils.

most hill walks are nice IMHO unless across trackless bog and heather,
some are better than others. If I was visiting UK I would want to do
something like the South Cluanie ridge or Craig Meagaidh (probably
miss spelled) "Meggy" anyhow, or something "interesting" like the
Aonach Eagach (AGGHHHHH!)
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/pict036.htm" luckily theres an easy way
round the back for southern softies.
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Mike Reid

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:33:24 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    >> OK, you are willing to not go to many of the "wild" places. If you
    >> just said you were making such a stand and left it there you would get
    >> some agreement and respect,
    >I'm not looking for respect,

we all need to be loved, David.

    >but you shouldn't pontificate about hills
    >you haven't been up- it's the kind of thing munroe baggers come out
    >with.

Ah, those bagger buggers, not my scene. Ive done about 60, shit, no,
no i'm not counting.
But I dont think having an opinion about the relative merits of the
scottish hills amounts to pontification, especially when its pretty
much the accepted view.

    >Oh, and I made exactly this point (about choosing not to go to some
    >places) last time this came up.

I know, but I feel we should give OPs the full picture of what not
using a car might entail.

Have you set your recorder for the forthcoming GP as I suggested? Its
"Scheweys" last race ever. Last chance to see "the German" in action
and the bonus is he probably wont get the championship. I suspect
youre not well informed in this area so I should tell you he drives a
Ferrari, red for Italy and Alonso, the pretender to the title of
current best driver, is Spanish in a French car, (the blue of France
and yellow, presumably for "cheese eating surrender monkeys"?)) there
are south americans in it for your partner to support and Brits or
Scandavians if you prefer. Although Rhikenenn is not charismatic, even
if he can spell better than me.
Its very exciting, well, its very noisy, exciting is an overstatement,
except when they crash.
Why do I feel youre not reading this?
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Mike Reid

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:33:23 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

    >> its a simple fact that remote Scottish hills are hard to get to by PT
    >> and easy by car.
    >I thought it was an impossiblity a few posts back.

Was it? I thought this squabble started over the impractability of
it, I did mention the munros had car free completists.

    >> You don't want to concede anything can possibly be
    >> more efficient by car so you end with this sort of boring argument.
    >I've always conceded that the car is often faster and easier, in fact.
    >You're making things up to support _your_ argument now.

Well, if you had said that to the OP we wouldnt be here now!
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

Jack Campin - bogus address

    >> I'm happy to leave most of them to the rest of nature, and the
    >> kind of person who simply can't rid them themselves of the car.
    > OK, you are willing to not go to many of the "wild" places.

If they're really wild it make no bloody difference to accessibility
whether you go by car or public transport, most of your trip will be
on foot anyway. The only thing a car will do is force you to retrace
your steps to get back to it, so you end up seeing half as much as if
you'd used the local buses.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

Mike Reid

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:57:54 +0100, Jack Campin - bogus address
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >>> I'm happy to leave most of them to the rest of nature, and the
    >>> kind of person who simply can't rid them themselves of the car.
    >> OK, you are willing to not go to many of the "wild" places.
    >If they're really wild it make no bloody difference to accessibility
    >whether you go by car or public transport, most of your trip will be
    >on foot anyway. The only thing a car will do is force you to retrace
    >your steps to get back to it, so you end up seeing half as much as if
    >you'd used the local buses.

they are not really wild, that's why I put it in quotes. Most hill
walks in the UK are over land that is used by man in some way (sheep
grazing, deer forest, grouse moor etc) and most of the hills/ridges
(but not all) can be climbed and returned from in a day from a car.
The "local buses" often don't exist. But certainly if you want to make
a multi day camping trip of it, you have more chance of using buses.
But the simple unavoidable truth is that for the average walker, doing
a summit or three in a day and returning to the same valley, its
vastly easier by car.
--
Mike Reid
I will agree bendybuses are a good idea when they build bungalows on Mayfair
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"

David Horne

Mike Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:33:23 +0100,
    > [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
    > the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
    >
    > >> I haven't bothered yet,
    > >
    > >Then you should shut up about them.
    >
    > No, I can read descriptions of hills I haven't done by authors whose
    > descriptions I have read of hills I have done.

Then you interpret poorly.

    > I can look at the
    > 1:50000 and 1:25000 maps and interpret them.

As above.

    > There are one or two tops I haven't visited in the ELD, I probably
    > never will, because they are dull and I'm not collecting "ticks". I
    > may get to the Ochills one day, I probably wont as hills like Slioch
    > hold more attraction.

So go there instead. It still doesn't detract from them being excellent
hiking.


    > But none of this is the point, you're point of view is "I'm happy
    > doing only the hills with PT", mine is "I want to do the best hills I
    > can drag myself up", you then say you can get to the hills without a
    > car, which is true from your point of view but not from mine or the
    > general understanding of those words.

I think there are very few hills I could get to without PT. As you
haven't ever had to, you wouldn't know.


[]
    > >- when I go by car?
    >
    > I went to a lot of trouble to point out a few hillwalkers have
    > completed the Munros without cars.

Which makes my point then.

    >
    > >The only difference in this discussion is that I've been up
    > >the Ochils, and you haven't.
    >
    > Another difference might be that ive been up some of the hills far
    > from PT that are more impressive than the Ochills, if we are being
    > bitchy

You're not being bitchy, you're being pointless. I've been up more
impressive hills too. Indeed, you really ought to slit your wrists right
now, as you've not been up Everest. If you take my point.

    >
    > >In the Ochils, just the climb up Ben Law
    > >(not the highest) alone is a pretty good hike compared to some Munroes.
    >
    > Ever since I was put down by the SMC for writing Munroe when I was
    > asking about copyright issues for my software I've been waiting for a
    > chance to say "och, theres no e in Munro, laddie!"

Whatever.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org