Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:17:43 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:57:40 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
> >> chancellor (*)) wrote:
[]
> >Do you have any information on the number of tourists who are victims of
> >violent crime in the Hague, or NL? It's probably extremely low, as it is
> >in most places.
>
> How do you know it is seriously low in most places?

Violent crime against tourists in Europe is extremely low. That's well
known, and all I'm talking about.

> I see plenty of reports of tourists being robbed in Leiden. Both my wife,
> my son and daughter have been robbed, in A'dam, Leiden and in the Hague.
> All three have been robbed several times, but what do we know we just live
> here and read the local newspapers.

I'm not arguing that crime doesn't happen, but that it doesn't often
happen to tourists. Sure, you'll be reading reports of tourists being
crime victims in local media that wouldn't make it here. FWIW, the FCO
advice, ridiculously, mentions terrorism first, but goes on:

"Around 2 million British tourists visit the Netherlands every year.
Most visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which
British nationals required consular assistance in the Netherlands in
2006 was for replacing stolen passports, which occur mainly (although
not exclusively) on trains, trams and in restaurants. You should also be
alert to the dangers of street crime in the cities."

That doesn't suggest to me that violent crime is something a tourist
should worry about. For France, they write:

"More than 12 million British nationals visit mainland France every
year. Most visits are trouble-free. The main types of incident for
which British nationals required consular assistance in France in 2006
were for petty crime and road traffic accidents. You should be alert to
the dangers of street and car crime."

For dangerous Belgium:

"Up to 1.5 million British tourists visit Belgium every year. Most
visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which British
nationals required consular assistance in Belgium in 2006 was as a
result of street and car crime. Theft and pick pocketing is a problem
in crowded areas. You should take extra care, particularly of your
belongings and passports, at the Gare du Midi (Eurostar terminal) and
Gare Du Nord in Brussels."

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

> Following up to Bruce Dumes <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Which is why I never check baggage if I can help it. I haven't checked
> >a bag in 10 years.
>
> you must travel light!

I knew an American who did this wherever she went, after having her bags
lost by an airline. I don't know if she'd get her hand luggage through
UK security though. My roller is under the dimensions for length and
height, but a few centimeters too wide for width, for Ryanair's specs.
I'm thinking of trying it next week on the flight to Inverness... I
don't know if they'll care...

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:40:29 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

>Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:17:43 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
>> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>>
>> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:57:40 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
>> >> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>[]
>> >Do you have any information on the number of tourists who are victims of
>> >violent crime in the Hague, or NL? It's probably extremely low, as it is
>> >in most places.
>>
>> How do you know it is seriously low in most places?
>
>Violent crime against tourists in Europe is extremely low. That's well
>known, and all I'm talking about.

I looked to see if Mixi posted that fact. :-)

>
>> I see plenty of reports of tourists being robbed in Leiden. Both my wife,
>> my son and daughter have been robbed, in A'dam, Leiden and in the Hague.
>> All three have been robbed several times, but what do we know we just live
>> here and read the local newspapers.
>
>I'm not arguing that crime doesn't happen, but that it doesn't often
>happen to tourists. Sure, you'll be reading reports of tourists being
>crime victims in local media that wouldn't make it here. FWIW, the FCO
>advice, ridiculously, mentions terrorism first, but goes on:
>
>"Around 2 million British tourists visit the Netherlands every year.
>Most visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which
>British nationals required consular assistance in the Netherlands in
>2006 was for replacing stolen passports, which occur mainly (although
>not exclusively) on trains, trams and in restaurants. You should also be
>alert to the dangers of street crime in the cities."
>
>That doesn't suggest to me that violent crime is something a tourist
>should worry about.

In that case the FCO are wasting their time.

> For France, they write:
>
>"More than 12 million British nationals visit mainland France every
>year. Most visits are trouble-free. The main types of incident for
>which British nationals required consular assistance in France in 2006
>were for petty crime and road traffic accidents. You should be alert to
>the dangers of street and car crime."
>
>For dangerous Belgium:
>
>"Up to 1.5 million British tourists visit Belgium every year. Most
>visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which British
>nationals required consular assistance in Belgium in 2006 was as a
>result of street and car crime. Theft and pick pocketing is a problem
>in crowded areas. You should take extra care, particularly of your
>belongings and passports, at the Gare du Midi (Eurostar terminal) and
>Gare Du Nord in Brussels."

Am I missing something? For all three countries there are warnings about street
crime.
--

Martin

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:40:29 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:17:43 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
> >> chancellor (*)) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:57:40 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
> >_the_ > >> chancellor (*)) wrote: []
> >> >Do you have any information on the number of tourists who are victims of
> >> >violent crime in the Hague, or NL? It's probably extremely low, as it is
> >> >in most places.
> >>
> >> How do you know it is seriously low in most places?
> >
> >Violent crime against tourists in Europe is extremely low. That's well
> >known, and all I'm talking about.
>
> I looked to see if Mixi posted that fact. :-)

Do you really think violent crime against tourists in NL is not low? I
admit it's frustrating that finding statistics on this kind of thing are
hard, but I would make a safe guess that it was statistically low. If it
was high, they'd make a big deal about it.

> >
> >> I see plenty of reports of tourists being robbed in Leiden. Both my wife,
> >> my son and daughter have been robbed, in A'dam, Leiden and in the Hague.
> >> All three have been robbed several times, but what do we know we just live
> >> here and read the local newspapers.
> >
> >I'm not arguing that crime doesn't happen, but that it doesn't often
> >happen to tourists. Sure, you'll be reading reports of tourists being
> >crime victims in local media that wouldn't make it here. FWIW, the FCO
> >advice, ridiculously, mentions terrorism first, but goes on:
> >
> >"Around 2 million British tourists visit the Netherlands every year.
> >Most visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which
> >British nationals required consular assistance in the Netherlands in
> >2006 was for replacing stolen passports, which occur mainly (although
> >not exclusively) on trains, trams and in restaurants. You should also be
> >alert to the dangers of street crime in the cities."
> >
> >That doesn't suggest to me that violent crime is something a tourist
> >should worry about.
>
> In that case the FCO are wasting their time.
>
> > For France, they write:
> >
> >"More than 12 million British nationals visit mainland France every
> >year. Most visits are trouble-free. The main types of incident for
> >which British nationals required consular assistance in France in 2006
> >were for petty crime and road traffic accidents. You should be alert to
> >the dangers of street and car crime."
> >
> >For dangerous Belgium:
> >
> >"Up to 1.5 million British tourists visit Belgium every year. Most
> >visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which British
> >nationals required consular assistance in Belgium in 2006 was as a
> >result of street and car crime. Theft and pick pocketing is a problem
> >in crowded areas. You should take extra care, particularly of your
> >belongings and passports, at the Gare du Midi (Eurostar terminal) and
> >Gare Du Nord in Brussels."
>
> Am I missing something? For all three countries there are warnings about
> street crime.

Yes, but they warn about street crime in most of Europe. They have more
information specific to each country on the web. For Amsterdam, they go
into more detail about various scams, fake police, dangers from drug
dealers etc. Vigilence against street crime is advised in most big
cities in Europe, according to the FCO.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:05:46 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

>Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:40:29 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
>> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>>
>> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:17:43 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
>> >> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:57:40 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
>> >_the_ > >> chancellor (*)) wrote: []
>> >> >Do you have any information on the number of tourists who are victims of
>> >> >violent crime in the Hague, or NL? It's probably extremely low, as it is
>> >> >in most places.
>> >>
>> >> How do you know it is seriously low in most places?
>> >
>> >Violent crime against tourists in Europe is extremely low. That's well
>> >known, and all I'm talking about.
>>
>> I looked to see if Mixi posted that fact. :-)
>
>Do you really think violent crime against tourists in NL is not low? I
>admit it's frustrating that finding statistics on this kind of thing are
>hard, but I would make a safe guess that it was statistically low. If it
>was high, they'd make a big deal about it.

OK I'll put it this way. I am paranoid about being robbed on the street at ATMs
etc. So far it hasn't happened. The rest of the family have the same attitude as
you and have been robbed several times. Both my kids have been robbed several
times in places frequented by tourists. My son managed to be robbed twice in the
Hague on the same evening.

>> >
>> >> I see plenty of reports of tourists being robbed in Leiden. Both my wife,
>> >> my son and daughter have been robbed, in A'dam, Leiden and in the Hague.
>> >> All three have been robbed several times, but what do we know we just live
>> >> here and read the local newspapers.
>> >
>> >I'm not arguing that crime doesn't happen, but that it doesn't often
>> >happen to tourists. Sure, you'll be reading reports of tourists being
>> >crime victims in local media that wouldn't make it here. FWIW, the FCO
>> >advice, ridiculously, mentions terrorism first, but goes on:
>> >
>> >"Around 2 million British tourists visit the Netherlands every year.
>> >Most visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which
>> >British nationals required consular assistance in the Netherlands in
>> >2006 was for replacing stolen passports, which occur mainly (although
>> >not exclusively) on trains, trams and in restaurants. You should also be
>> >alert to the dangers of street crime in the cities."
>> >
>> >That doesn't suggest to me that violent crime is something a tourist
>> >should worry about.
>>
>> In that case the FCO are wasting their time.
>>
>> > For France, they write:
>> >
>> >"More than 12 million British nationals visit mainland France every
>> >year. Most visits are trouble-free. The main types of incident for
>> >which British nationals required consular assistance in France in 2006
>> >were for petty crime and road traffic accidents. You should be alert to
>> >the dangers of street and car crime."
>> >
>> >For dangerous Belgium:
>> >
>> >"Up to 1.5 million British tourists visit Belgium every year. Most
>> >visits are trouble-free. The main type of incident for which British
>> >nationals required consular assistance in Belgium in 2006 was as a
>> >result of street and car crime. Theft and pick pocketing is a problem
>> >in crowded areas. You should take extra care, particularly of your
>> >belongings and passports, at the Gare du Midi (Eurostar terminal) and
>> >Gare Du Nord in Brussels."
>>
>> Am I missing something? For all three countries there are warnings about
>> street crime.
>
>Yes, but they warn about street crime in most of Europe. They have more
>information specific to each country on the web. For Amsterdam, they go
>into more detail about various scams, fake police, dangers from drug
>dealers etc. Vigilence against street crime is advised in most big
>cities in Europe, according to the FCO.

So your advice to the OP is... ignore the warnings?
--

Martin

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:05:46 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
> chancellor (*)) wrote:
[]
> >Do you really think violent crime against tourists in NL is not low? I
> >admit it's frustrating that finding statistics on this kind of thing are
> >hard, but I would make a safe guess that it was statistically low. If it
> >was high, they'd make a big deal about it.
>
> OK I'll put it this way. I am paranoid about being robbed on the street at
> ATMs etc. So far it hasn't happened. The rest of the family have the same
> attitude as you

What do you think my attitude is?

> and have been robbed several times. Both my kids have been robbed several
> times in places frequented by tourists. My son managed to be robbed twice
> in the Hague on the same evening.
[]
> >Yes, but they warn about street crime in most of Europe. They have more
> >information specific to each country on the web. For Amsterdam, they go
> >into more detail about various scams, fake police, dangers from drug
> >dealers etc. Vigilence against street crime is advised in most big
> >cities in Europe, according to the FCO.
>
> So your advice to the OP is... ignore the warnings?

My advice to the OP was given in the first post to him.

"I think you're being too paranoid. Mild vigilance will be all you need
with a normal backpack. Besides, the cities you mentioned don't have a
particularly bad reputation for crime..."

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1i2kvk9.a4af121n6whpzN%[email protected]...

> "I think you're being too paranoid. Mild vigilance will be all you need
> with a normal backpack. Besides, the cities you mentioned don't have a
> particularly bad reputation for crime..."

I was looking at those 'pacsafe' things where you wrap your
bag/case/whatever in a stainless steel mesh and padlock it so they can't be
slashed by a knife.

I've never before seen a device that screams quite so loudly 'I'm carrying
valuables, please rob me'.

Talk about asking for trouble...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

William Black <[email protected]> wrote:

> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1i2kvk9.a4af121n6whpzN%[email protected]...
>
> > "I think you're being too paranoid. Mild vigilance will be all you need
> > with a normal backpack. Besides, the cities you mentioned don't have a
> > particularly bad reputation for crime..."
>
> I was looking at those 'pacsafe' things where you wrap your
> bag/case/whatever in a stainless steel mesh and padlock it so they can't be
> slashed by a knife.
>
> I've never before seen a device that screams quite so loudly 'I'm carrying
> valuables, please rob me'.
>
> Talk about asking for trouble...

I carry my laptop in a regular backpack that I bought for 10 quid at
TKMaxx.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1i2kwnt.5oks2u1d7pk7uN%[email protected]...
> William Black <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:1i2kvk9.a4af121n6whpzN%[email protected]...
>>
>> > "I think you're being too paranoid. Mild vigilance will be all you need
>> > with a normal backpack. Besides, the cities you mentioned don't have a
>> > particularly bad reputation for crime..."
>>
>> I was looking at those 'pacsafe' things where you wrap your
>> bag/case/whatever in a stainless steel mesh and padlock it so they can't
>> be
>> slashed by a knife.
>>
>> I've never before seen a device that screams quite so loudly 'I'm
>> carrying
>> valuables, please rob me'.
>>
>> Talk about asking for trouble...
>
> I carry my laptop in a regular backpack that I bought for 10 quid at
> TKMaxx.

Well I have a posh leather 'carry-on' that has a laptop pocket, but our
current laptop is a 'desktop replacement' with a 17" screen so we bought a
neoprene envelope for a fiver and just slip it into a shoulder bag if it's
going anywhere, which isn't very often as it's far too heavy to lug about.

When I fly the laptop goes into one of the carry-ons.

Laptops that go in the hold are never, ever seen again...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

Following up to [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
(*)) wrote:

>> I thought crime was officially falling. However you didnt get shot for
>> no reason 30 years ago.
>
>When was the last time a tourist was shot in the UK?

no idea, that wasn't the point.
--
Mike
(remove clothing to email)

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

> Following up to [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> (*)) wrote:
>
> >> I thought crime was officially falling. However you didnt get shot for
> >> no reason 30 years ago.
> >
> >When was the last time a tourist was shot in the UK?
>
> no idea, that wasn't the point.

I thought the thread was about crime against tourists.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

Following up to [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
(*)) wrote:

>> >When was the last time a tourist was shot in the UK?
>>
>> no idea, that wasn't the point.
>
>I thought the thread was about crime against tourists.

I had wandered off at right angles to the totally unconnected gun
crime in general. Terribly sorry.
--
Mike
(remove clothing to email)

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:40:35 GMT, "William Black" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:1i2kvk9.a4af121n6whpzN%[email protected]. ..
>
>> "I think you're being too paranoid. Mild vigilance will be all you need
>> with a normal backpack. Besides, the cities you mentioned don't have a
>> particularly bad reputation for crime..."
>
>I was looking at those 'pacsafe' things where you wrap your
>bag/case/whatever in a stainless steel mesh and padlock it so they can't be
>slashed by a knife.
>
>I've never before seen a device that screams quite so loudly 'I'm carrying
>valuables, please rob me'.
>
>Talk about asking for trouble...

.. talking about wives with open handbags?
--

Martin

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

On 9 aug, 11:42, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:39:49 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
>
>
>
>
>
> chancellor (*)) wrote:
> >Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:34:41 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
> >> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
> >> >The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >> Following up to [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> >> >> (*)) wrote:
>
> >> >> >> Is he worried about "violent" theft or simply people who use tools
> >> >> >> (in this case, a sharp knife) to slice open the bottom of a backpack
> >> >> >> and take its contents? There's likely no violence towards the person
> >> >> >> with the backpack, and the temporary shock & disbelief at what's
> >> >> >> happening probably keeps the thief from having to subdue his prey.
>
> >> >> >I was using 'violent' very widely here. This kind of theft is rare.
>
> >> >> Which kind? I've seen bag snatches two or three times and have friends
> >> >> who have suffered it.
>
> >> >It's rare where he's going. I only know of one friend who has ever had a
> >> >bag snatched while on holiday. That was on a bridge in Turkey.
>
> >> It happens all the time in the Netherlands and violent crime is rising
> >> dramatically here too.
>
> >As with here, but I'd still say it was safe for tourists. I don't see
> >the point in worrying about something which is very unlikely to happen.
>
> It does happen, you just aren't aware of it.
> There were 3735 recorded cases of violent crime in the first six months of 2007
> in The Hague area.

That was mostly me, kicking sh1t out of uncooperative waiters :-)

B;

Re: how paranoid should one really be?
 

On 9 aug, 12:10, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
(*)) wrote:
> The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Following up to [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> > (*)) wrote:
>
> > >> It happens all the time in the Netherlands and violent crime is rising
> > >> dramatically here too.
>
> > >As with here, but I'd still say it was safe for tourists. I don't see
> > >the point in worrying about something which is very unlikely to happen.
>
> > I thought crime was officially falling. However you didnt get shot for
> > no reason 30 years ago.
>
> When was the last time a tourist was shot in the UK? (Menenez doesn't
> count, he was living here.)
>
> The murder and violent crime rate is higher in Scotland than it is in
> England. I don't think tourists suddenly feel less safe when the cross
> the border, because the risk to tourists is very low.
>
> Two people have been violently murdered in my home town (Tillicoultry)
> in the last few years. I don't remember a murder in all the time I lived
> there- though I remember a stabbing.

The crime stats for St Mary Mead are pretty shocking!!

B;