Viking wrote:
    > I'd avoid the station area.

I wouldn't. We stayed directly across the street and found it very
convenient.

We experienced absolutely NOTHING like ANYthing you describe, neither
in Rome nor elsewhere in Italy, nor did we encounter anyone who did
<http://geocities.com/iconoc/Articles/Vigns01.html>

I suggest you find a mirror and try to determine what it is about you
that makes you so vulnerable.
__________________________________________________ __________
Un San Francisqueño en San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:06:04 GMT, Brendon <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Viking, after reading your post (and I have only been on this newsgroup
    >for 3 days) - I was initially suspicious - with so much bad luck and all....
    >Honestly, did all this happen to you? The 'throw the baby at you'
    >routine? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. All that happened to us, and it was probably because
we were in the area around Termini, which was what I was trying to
disuade the original poster from. Your response makes me wonder if
Barbara, normally a good poster thought my report was made up. I only
wish it were!! It happened years ago, and I've posted it from time to
time, trying to tell people to not stay in the Termini area. (Although
I've heard it's gotten better lately.)

    >Sorry to hear your story if it is true.

Thanks. I always use an inside-the-pants wallet now, and haven't had
problems since. But as you can tell from my post, it felt like we were
utterly under siege. The throwing-the-baby incident when I was on the
way to the police station to report the pickpocketing, convinced
me--at that time, anyway--that there was no law there at all. The
gypsies did the same thing to another party as I watched from down the
block.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:19:05 GMT, Rita <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I had a very good experience in Rome....

This kind of anecdotal evidence to refute something always shows up in
this ng. I'm glad that you had a good time. We didn't, as you can see
from my post. And when the question of staying near Termini comes up
here and I see it, I'll post my experiences again.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:53:58 -0500, "Rog'"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >I 'spose its possible for all those things to happen to as hapless
    >a mark as presented here, but you'd have to be a damn stupid
    >tourist to get rolled like that. I've suffered pickpocket attempts
    >and can tell you that a money-belt and a map to your hotel leads
    >to a much different story.

Thanks for your support. The wallet was in my front pocket, along with
a lot of other items; the thief was a professional. And yes, I do use
an inside wallet now. I know it's inevitable here that if you say you
were pickpocketed, some smarter-than-thou type will say how much more
intelligent they were with a money-belt. Fine, I've read your
condescending advice. I've probably worn an inside wallet longer than
you.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:13:30 -0800, Icono Clast <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >> I'd avoid the station area.
    >I wouldn't. We stayed directly across the street and found it very
    >convenient.

You tell your experiences, I'll tell mine. And I hope mine keeps
people away from Termini.

    >We experienced absolutely NOTHING like ANYthing you describe, neither
    >in Rome nor elsewhere in Italy, nor did we encounter anyone who did
    ><http://geocities.com/iconoc/Articles/Vigns01.html>

Our experiences were not uncommon at all, as we discussed with other
hotel guests. I've heard that things have improved since, but that
doesn't impress me.

    >I suggest you find a mirror and try to determine what it is about you
    >that makes you so vulnerable.

Yeah, that's a great idea, blaming the victim--you got shot? What was
it about you that made someone shoot you?

Is that the attitude? That vulnerability means crime is acceptable?

As it happens, I was wearing looser clothing for comfort in travel,
and that may have attracted pickpockets. Who knows? It's still no
excuse for theft.

Or do you think it is?

We spoke to more than a dozen parties in the hotel that had been
pickpocketed. It was by far the most common topic of discussion. And
nearly every shopkeeper warned us about the pickpockets.

I now use an inside wallet. But many people besides us were victims
there, and I believe potential travellers to the area should be
warned.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:44:13 -0500, Viking <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:19:05 GMT, Rita <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I had a very good experience in Rome....
    >This kind of anecdotal evidence to refute something always shows up in
    >this ng. I'm glad that you had a good time. We didn't, as you can see
    >from my post. And when the question of staying near Termini comes up
    >here and I see it, I'll post my experiences again.

And thus we see illustrated the context that posts in this place
should be seen in.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:18:54 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >And thus we see illustrated the context that posts in this place
    >should be seen in.

Well, the "context" is that I had a surprisingly nasty experience, and
think other should be warned.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:28:39 -0500, Viking <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:18:54 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
    ><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
    >>And thus we see illustrated the context that posts in this place
    >>should be seen in.
    >Well, the "context" is that I had a surprisingly nasty experience, and
    >think other should be warned.

Fair enough too. I had a shit time in Russia, but other posters have
reported positive experiences. Well, one did. The rest agreed with me.

I love Rome, but it's a big city, and isn't the gentlest way to start
your Italian trip.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:45:11 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >Fair enough too. I had a shit time in Russia, but other posters have
    >reported positive experiences. Well, one did. The rest agreed with me.

DFM: Can you tell me about it? I've been planning to go there someday,
possibly a river cruise. Any firsthand experiences welcomed.

"Viking" <[email protected]> wrote...
    > Well, the "context" is that I had a surprisingly nasty
    > experience, and think other should be warned.

Nasty experiences can occur anywhere, and someone can always be
found who can relate an unfortunate occurance even in paradise. My
pickpocket experience was /not/ at Termini, but near the Forum, and
my wife's was near the Arno in Florence. We considered these to be
annoyances, considering the violent crime experienced by travellers
here in the States.

It is reasonable to warn fellow travelers of the hotspots and tricks of
the trade, and in that spirit, I will quote from www.romebuddy.com :

"In July 2000, the ex-Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson was relieved
of his wallet and the $4000 cash it contained by a small group of
gypsy girls who accosted him on the famous Via Veneto in Rome.
He gave chase but they outran him! The lesson is clear - Watch Out!

"Not only are these innocent looking children on the streets of Rome
cunning thieves, they are also agile, well-practised and extremely fleet
of foot... there are many pickpockets in Rome, as in any large city,
so the risks and dangers of theft are there...

"There's a sucker born every minute and ten thousand new suckers
jetting into Rome every day, so the thieves and pickpockets don't
need to change their methods much; they just practice them until
they've got it perfect. If they successfully rob you, it will be because
their method was new to you, but not to them..."
=R=

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:26:21 -0500, "Rog'"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Viking" <[email protected]> wrote...
    >> Well, the "context" is that I had a surprisingly nasty
    >> experience, and think other should be warned.
    >Nasty experiences can occur anywhere.

I haven't said otherwise.

The sheer number of things that happened to us near Termini, however,
makes me think it a particularly bad area, and want to warn others.
(As I have said before, I've heard it's better now.)

If the hapless tourists stop showing up to be plucked, maybe changes
will be made.

Of course if you are going to carry your passport and your credit
cards in a pocket accessible to pickpockets, rather than tucked into a
money belt.......or an inside hidden zipped/buttoned pocket...

In mulitple trips to Italy (and other spots in Europe) I have never
once been pickpocketed (not that they'd find much in my pockets), or
overcharged, or ripped off in any way.


On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:54:49 -0500, Viking <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I'd avoid the station area. Getting there after a 14 hr train trip
    >--should have been 6, but everything broke (welcome to Italy)
    >including the a/c, we arrived seriously sick because the temperatures
    >had been about 120 in those steel cans; the crew had come through and
    >broken the emergency seals to let in a little air at the top of each
    >window--we had planned to walk to our hotel but couldn't do it
    >physically, so took a taxi. He drove us around for nearly 15 minutes
    >despite our loud protests and wanted to charge us a huge amount--the
    >hotel turned out to be three blocks from the station we found the next
    >day. The hotel said a/c, but there was none. I was pickpocketed in the
    >area the next day--and found during the day that nearly all store
    >owners warned us about pickpockets. Many people at the hotel were
    >pickpocketed as well; shared stories with them. On the way to the
    >police station (the single one where English was spoken), gypsies
    >tossed a baby at me and snatched my passport from my pocket, which I
    >snatched back. The line of tourists reporting pickpocketings (you have
    >to get a police report if credit cards were stolen) was two blocks
    >long (tells you a lot about the frequency of that). My credit cards
    >had been maxed out in the 10 minutes it had taken me to get to a phone
    >to call the card companies--Visa told me it was so common in the area
    >that many jewelry stores in the area were in on it, sold jewels to the
    >pickpockets, and split the profit later; my cards had been used to buy
    >diamonds within minutes of being stolen. Far from getting sympathy
    >when telling the hotel manager in passing that I had been
    >pickpocketed, he immediately demanded to know how I was going to pay
    >my bill. All the restaurants in the area around the station had large
    >hidden charges that they didn't post or mention, sometimes adding more
    >than 50% to the bill--and three of them added items we never purchased
    >to the bill (usually bottles of expensive wine), which took long, hot,
    >angry interviews with the manager to have removed. Went on a tour
    >where 60% of the time was spent in totally uninteresting restaurants
    >and shops where the tour guide greeted the owner familiarly and was
    >obviously getting a kickback. The person I was with almost had her
    >purse snatched but managed to hang on; someone we met in the hotel had
    >had her purse stolen by a passing motorcyclist (A Vespa? Who knows?)
    >Etc, etc. My advice about the area around Termini and the parasitical
    >Roman culture that preys on tourists? You can guess for yourself.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:42:25 GMT, [email protected] (Carole Allen)
wrote:

    >Of course if you are going to carry your passport and your credit
    >cards in a pocket accessible to pickpockets, rather than tucked into a
    >money belt.......or an inside hidden zipped/buttoned pocket...

Oh, there's a new thought.
Yes, that's been said ten thousand times before. I do use an inside
wallet now.
Nonetheless, the place, at the very least when I was there, was
infested with thieves, and that alone is worth bringing to potential
tourists attention.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:30:48 -0500, Viking <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:42:25 GMT, [email protected] (Carole Allen)
    >wrote:
    >>Of course if you are going to carry your passport and your credit
    >>cards in a pocket accessible to pickpockets, rather than tucked into a
    >>money belt.......or an inside hidden zipped/buttoned pocket...
    >Oh, there's a new thought.
    >Yes, that's been said ten thousand times before. I do use an inside
    >wallet now.
    >Nonetheless, the place, at the very least when I was there, was
    >infested with thieves, and that alone is worth bringing to potential
    >tourists attention.

A cheap deterent is a plastic bag or six. The really crinkly ones that
make a hell of a noise when you touch them are good for wrapping your
important documents in. Removing those from your pack by stealth is
next to impossible. It also waterproofs them.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Viking wrote:
    > The wallet was in my front pocket . . . I've probably worn an
    > inside wallet longer than you.

I know what a wallet is but I don't know what an "inside wallet" is.

I don't carry a wallet. My cash, usually less than U$100 or
equivalent, is in one front pant pocket, a credit card and an
identification card in the other. A rear pocket carries a handkerchief.

In one jacket pocket is cigarettes and matches. The others empty
(hotel key stays at the hotel). Here at home, my money clip has a key
to the car (the fob stays in the house; too bulky and risky to carry
about). My other keys stay in the car.

I carry nothing I don't absolutely have to. That created a problem
last March when I went to dinner with five women. We were at a
convention in a hotel that I had no intention of leaving until the
convention was over so my credit card was in the room. When it came
time to pay at an off-site restaurant, I had just barely enough cash
for my share. Had I the credit card, I'd've probably picked up the tab.


    > Icono Clast said:
    >> I suggest you find a mirror and try to determine what it is
    >> about you that makes you so vulnerable.

    > Yeah, that's a great idea, blaming the victim--you got shot? What
    > was it about you that made someone shoot you?
    >
    > Is that the attitude? That vulnerability means crime is
    > acceptable?

What a strange conclusion. Physically, I'm a very vulnerable person
but nothing significantly unpleasant has ever happened to me in
25,000 miles of hitch-hiking and many more thousands of miles driving
automobiles and motorcycles and travelling via public transportation
and walking streets whenever I chose (mentioned yesterday and today
in rec.travel.usa-canada [Re: Furama Hotel Los Angeles] and in the
Manhattan Vignettes
<http://geocities.com/iconoc/Articles/Vigns01.html> at the site at
Right in the sig. The first major trip I remember was almost sixty
years ago. My major hitch-hiking days began longer than fifty years
ago. Many have travelled much more than I but I've travelled much
more than most as is probably true of most of us who regularly
participate in this forum.
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net