Is Holland actually a police state?
Sep 11th 2005, 8:49 pm
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected] :
>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>> >
>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a passport
>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things about
>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of the
>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in order
>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same time.
>>>> >
>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my mother,
>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you from
>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I think
>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not an
>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol test
>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>
>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
> IMO you
>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
--
Martin
>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected] :
>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>> >
>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a passport
>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things about
>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of the
>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in order
>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same time.
>>>> >
>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my mother,
>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you from
>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I think
>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not an
>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol test
>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>
>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
> IMO you
>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 8:54 pm
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
Martin Bienwald a écrit :
> [email protected] schrieb:
> > I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
> > established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
> > Smiths by my passport number.
> Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
> new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
> unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
> to distinguish people with the same name.
I repeat - my identity is established legally by my passport. The
passport is identified by number and date and place of issue. No need
for family history.
G;
> [email protected] schrieb:
> > I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
> > established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
> > Smiths by my passport number.
> Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
> new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
> unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
> to distinguish people with the same name.
I repeat - my identity is established legally by my passport. The
passport is identified by number and date and place of issue. No need
for family history.
G;
Sep 11th 2005, 8:58 pm
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 08:42:18 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:1126470940.155701.169200
>@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> Mini One wrote:
>>> I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents. IMO you
>>> haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>
>> Maybe I can't, and that inability causes me distress? The reasons for
>> that may be personal - they aren't anyone else's business but mine.
>> Why can't you understand that?
>Because I think it's cultural, nothing more. I have six names. Four of
>which are "last" names. They trace my family history. They include my
>father's last name, my mother's maiden name, and the names of my
>grandparents.
My wife has a ridiculously long name that won't fit in most public
databases. 45 Christian names and 5 words in her surname plus my
surname. The local authority didn't ask for her family history when
she registered in Holland.
>One first name is my father's grandmother's first name. So,
>my parents & grandparents aren't a secret to anyone who see's my passport.
Nor are the names of our two cats and the pet tortoise. For some odd
reason the local authority didn't ask for them, when we registered.
Perhaps because they hadn't been born. :-)
>And, if I were married in Switzerland I'd have to add my husband's name so
>that would add one more name & an indication of who I 'belong" to.
>> My description of a police state would include an a priori assumption
>> that all the details of a citizen's life are the business of the state.
>> That seems to corresond with the theory (if not the practice) of Dutch
>> bureaucracy.
>A police state to me is:
>a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of
>police (especially secret police), i.e. a state in which the government
>maintains strict control over the population, particularly through
>suspension of civil rights, usually by means of a force of secret police.
>This is Iran, not the Netherlands. You don't lose your civil rights by
>showing a long form birth certificate.
If you read the replies carefully you will find that some Brits only
have a short form certificate.
In WWII Dutch Jews were identified by the Germans by using Dutch local
authority registration records.
In general only essential information should be held in public
databases.
--
Martin
>[email protected] wrote in news:1126470940.155701.169200
>@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> Mini One wrote:
>>> I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents. IMO you
>>> haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>
>> Maybe I can't, and that inability causes me distress? The reasons for
>> that may be personal - they aren't anyone else's business but mine.
>> Why can't you understand that?
>Because I think it's cultural, nothing more. I have six names. Four of
>which are "last" names. They trace my family history. They include my
>father's last name, my mother's maiden name, and the names of my
>grandparents.
My wife has a ridiculously long name that won't fit in most public
databases. 45 Christian names and 5 words in her surname plus my
surname. The local authority didn't ask for her family history when
she registered in Holland.
>One first name is my father's grandmother's first name. So,
>my parents & grandparents aren't a secret to anyone who see's my passport.
Nor are the names of our two cats and the pet tortoise. For some odd
reason the local authority didn't ask for them, when we registered.
Perhaps because they hadn't been born. :-)
>And, if I were married in Switzerland I'd have to add my husband's name so
>that would add one more name & an indication of who I 'belong" to.
>> My description of a police state would include an a priori assumption
>> that all the details of a citizen's life are the business of the state.
>> That seems to corresond with the theory (if not the practice) of Dutch
>> bureaucracy.
>A police state to me is:
>a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of
>police (especially secret police), i.e. a state in which the government
>maintains strict control over the population, particularly through
>suspension of civil rights, usually by means of a force of secret police.
>This is Iran, not the Netherlands. You don't lose your civil rights by
>showing a long form birth certificate.
If you read the replies carefully you will find that some Brits only
have a short form certificate.
In WWII Dutch Jews were identified by the Germans by using Dutch local
authority registration records.
In general only essential information should be held in public
databases.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 9:02 pm
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 08:45:19 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>Arwel Parry <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>> In message <[email protected]>, Wolfgang Schwanke
>> <[email protected]> writes
>>>[email protected] wrote in news:1126352736.068925.279600
>>>@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>>> Mini One wrote:
>>>>> What are you talking about???
>>>>> What's so crazy about asking you for a birth certificate and/or
>>>marriage
>>>>> certificate? I don't see that "police state" you are talking about.
>>>> Why do I need to show a piece of paper with the names of my parents on
>>>> it to an official at a town hall in Holland?
>>>They want to make sure you are the person you claim to be. Birth
>>>certificates are a form of ID, including the identity of one's parents.
>>
>> The UK birth certificate that was issued when I was two weeks old in
>> 1958 is a "short form" certificate. It has a nice coat-of-arms at the
>> top and a serial number, but it just says "Certificate of Birth", my
>> name, my sex, my birth date, and the registration district and
>> sub-district I was born in, and a certification by the registrar "that
>> the above particulars have been compiled from an entry in a register in
>> my custody", and my original National Health Service number which is no
>> longer used. There's no mention of my parents on it at all. It's a
>> perfectly legitimate birth certificate, and if I recall correctly my
>> parents' birth certificates from around 1920 are the same style except
>> that theirs are printed on extremely flimsy paper while mine is quite
>> substantial, but I can't see that it's much use for proving that the boy
>> named there is me!
>Maybe it is a compatibility issue. Maybe the Dutch don't have "short
>forms". I know the Swiss don't. They only have what is being called here
>"long forms". Thus a "short form" is not valid for them.
The "extract" from the Dutch population register could be described as
short form. This is what is used to prove you are registered and as
proof of identity.
--
Martin
>Arwel Parry <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>> In message <[email protected]>, Wolfgang Schwanke
>> <[email protected]> writes
>>>[email protected] wrote in news:1126352736.068925.279600
>>>@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>>> Mini One wrote:
>>>>> What are you talking about???
>>>>> What's so crazy about asking you for a birth certificate and/or
>>>marriage
>>>>> certificate? I don't see that "police state" you are talking about.
>>>> Why do I need to show a piece of paper with the names of my parents on
>>>> it to an official at a town hall in Holland?
>>>They want to make sure you are the person you claim to be. Birth
>>>certificates are a form of ID, including the identity of one's parents.
>>
>> The UK birth certificate that was issued when I was two weeks old in
>> 1958 is a "short form" certificate. It has a nice coat-of-arms at the
>> top and a serial number, but it just says "Certificate of Birth", my
>> name, my sex, my birth date, and the registration district and
>> sub-district I was born in, and a certification by the registrar "that
>> the above particulars have been compiled from an entry in a register in
>> my custody", and my original National Health Service number which is no
>> longer used. There's no mention of my parents on it at all. It's a
>> perfectly legitimate birth certificate, and if I recall correctly my
>> parents' birth certificates from around 1920 are the same style except
>> that theirs are printed on extremely flimsy paper while mine is quite
>> substantial, but I can't see that it's much use for proving that the boy
>> named there is me!
>Maybe it is a compatibility issue. Maybe the Dutch don't have "short
>forms". I know the Swiss don't. They only have what is being called here
>"long forms". Thus a "short form" is not valid for them.
The "extract" from the Dutch population register could be described as
short form. This is what is used to prove you are registered and as
proof of identity.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 9:20 pm
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
Martin a écrit :
> My wife has a ridiculously long name that won't fit in most public
> databases. 45 Christian names and 5 words in her surname plus my
> surname. The local authority didn't ask for her family history when
> she registered in Holland.
They were afraid to!!!
G;
> My wife has a ridiculously long name that won't fit in most public
> databases. 45 Christian names and 5 words in her surname plus my
> surname. The local authority didn't ask for her family history when
> she registered in Holland.
They were afraid to!!!
G;
Sep 11th 2005, 9:39 pm
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:35:32 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] schrieb:
>> I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>> established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>> Smiths by my passport number.
>Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
>new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
>unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
>to distinguish people with the same name.
Like date of birth?
Once you are registered in the Netherlands you get a "Sofi number"
Social security/Finance number which is unique. It's used by health,
social security and tax departments etc.
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] schrieb:
>> I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>> established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>> Smiths by my passport number.
>Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
>new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
>unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
>to distinguish people with the same name.
Like date of birth?
Once you are registered in the Netherlands you get a "Sofi number"
Social security/Finance number which is unique. It's used by health,
social security and tax departments etc.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 9:41 pm
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 01:54:35 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>Martin Bienwald a écrit :
>> [email protected] schrieb:
>> > I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>> > established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>> > Smiths by my passport number.
>> Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
>> new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
>> unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
>> to distinguish people with the same name.
>I repeat - my identity is established legally by my passport. The
>passport is identified by number and date and place of issue. No need
>for family history.
and the fact that it expires, is irrelevant as once you are registered
it is never needed for registration again.
--
Martin
>Martin Bienwald a écrit :
>> [email protected] schrieb:
>> > I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>> > established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>> > Smiths by my passport number.
>> Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
>> new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
>> unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
>> to distinguish people with the same name.
>I repeat - my identity is established legally by my passport. The
>passport is identified by number and date and place of issue. No need
>for family history.
and the fact that it expires, is irrelevant as once you are registered
it is never needed for registration again.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 9:42 pm
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 02:20:53 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>Martin a écrit :
>> My wife has a ridiculously long name that won't fit in most public
>> databases. 45 Christian names and 5 words in her surname plus my
>> surname. The local authority didn't ask for her family history when
>> she registered in Holland.
>They were afraid to!!!
A bit of a typo/exageration there :-) I must admit that she has *only*
5 Christian names.
--
Martin
>Martin a écrit :
>> My wife has a ridiculously long name that won't fit in most public
>> databases. 45 Christian names and 5 words in her surname plus my
>> surname. The local authority didn't ask for her family history when
>> she registered in Holland.
>They were afraid to!!!
A bit of a typo/exageration there :-) I must admit that she has *only*
5 Christian names.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 9:47 pm
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
Martin a écrit :
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:35:32 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >[email protected] schrieb:
> >
> >> I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
> >> established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
> >> Smiths by my passport number.
> >
> >Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
> >new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
> >unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
> >to distinguish people with the same name.
> Like date of birth?
> Once you are registered in the Netherlands you get a "Sofi number"
> Social security/Finance number which is unique. It's used by health,
> social security and tax departments etc.
Just to make clear the gulf between theory and practice: Mrs G has a
Sofi number, and never had to supply anything other than a digital file
containing a SCAN of her passport!
G;
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:35:32 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >[email protected] schrieb:
> >
> >> I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
> >> established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
> >> Smiths by my passport number.
> >
> >Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
> >new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
> >unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
> >to distinguish people with the same name.
> Like date of birth?
> Once you are registered in the Netherlands you get a "Sofi number"
> Social security/Finance number which is unique. It's used by health,
> social security and tax departments etc.
Just to make clear the gulf between theory and practice: Mrs G has a
Sofi number, and never had to supply anything other than a digital file
containing a SCAN of her passport!
G;
Sep 11th 2005, 10:02 pm
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 02:47:45 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>Martin a écrit :
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:35:32 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >[email protected] schrieb:
>> >
>> >> I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>> >> established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>> >> Smiths by my passport number.
>> >
>> >Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
>> >new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
>> >unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
>> >to distinguish people with the same name.
>> Like date of birth?
>> Once you are registered in the Netherlands you get a "Sofi number"
>> Social security/Finance number which is unique. It's used by health,
>> social security and tax departments etc.
>Just to make clear the gulf between theory and practice: Mrs G has a
>Sofi number, and never had to supply anything other than a digital file
>containing a SCAN of her passport!
I'd be very surprised if you have to provide anymore, in real life.
--
Martin
>Martin a écrit :
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:35:32 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >[email protected] schrieb:
>> >
>> >> I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>> >> established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>> >> Smiths by my passport number.
>> >
>> >Passport numbers can change (in Germany, you get a new number for every
>> >new passport, i.e. usually every ten years). There is no concept of a
>> >unique identification number in many countries; so you need other details
>> >to distinguish people with the same name.
>> Like date of birth?
>> Once you are registered in the Netherlands you get a "Sofi number"
>> Social security/Finance number which is unique. It's used by health,
>> social security and tax departments etc.
>Just to make clear the gulf between theory and practice: Mrs G has a
>Sofi number, and never had to supply anything other than a digital file
>containing a SCAN of her passport!
I'd be very surprised if you have to provide anymore, in real life.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 10:06 pm
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected] m:
>>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a passport
>>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things
about
>>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of the
>>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in order
>>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same time.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my
mother,
>>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you
from
>>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I
think
>>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not an
>>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol test
>>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>>
>>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
>
> because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
>
>> IMO you
>>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>
> It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
Well, no, he didn't. Maybe he tried....
news:[email protected]:
> On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected] m:
>>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a passport
>>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things
about
>>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of the
>>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in order
>>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same time.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my
mother,
>>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you
from
>>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I
think
>>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not an
>>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol test
>>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>>
>>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
>
> because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
>
>> IMO you
>>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>
> It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
Well, no, he didn't. Maybe he tried....
Sep 11th 2005, 10:16 pm
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected] oups.com:
>
> Mini One a écrit :
>
>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126470940.155701.169200
>> @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>> >
>> > Mini One wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents. IMO you
>> >> haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>> >
>> > Maybe I can't, and that inability causes me distress? The reasons
>> > for that may be personal - they aren't anyone else's business but
>> > mine. Why can't you understand that?
>> Because I think it's cultural, nothing more. I have six names. Four
>> of which are "last" names. They trace my family history. They include
>> my father's last name, my mother's maiden name, and the names of my
>> grandparents. One first name is my father's grandmother's first name.
>> So, my parents & grandparents aren't a secret to anyone who see's my
>> passport.
>
> How would you feel if one of those names was strange to you, the name
> of a person you'd never met, and who entered briefly, and
> unfortunately, into your family's history?
Several of those names are strange to me. I've never met my father's
side of the family. Although I did know my father briefly. He died when
I was five. He's still registered as my father, I still carry his
names. That can't be changed.
>> > My description of a police state would include an a priori
>> > assumption that all the details of a citizen's life are the
>> > business of the state. That seems to corresond with the theory (if
>> > not the practice) of Dutch bureaucracy.
>> A police state to me is:
>> a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means
>> of police (especially secret police), i.e. a state in which the
>> government maintains strict control over the population, particularly
>> through suspension of civil rights, usually by means of a force of
>> secret police.
>> This is Iran, not the Netherlands. You don't lose your civil rights
>> by showing a long form birth certificate.
>
> Again - I disagree. I consider it my civil right to not be obliged to
> disclose personal information to the least of bureaucrats for no
> reason.
Take your case to the "authorities". They may agree with you & let you
do whatever you need to do without disclosing your parents names.
Quite frankly I'm a bit tired of everyone moving to different countries
with different cultures and expecting them to change the rules for the
new comers. Apparently, the Dutch (and others) don't find this to be a
civil right issue.
In Switzerland you still must take the man's name if you get married
there. I don't agree with this, so I won't get married in this country.
Simple.
news:[email protected] oups.com:
>
> Mini One a écrit :
>
>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126470940.155701.169200
>> @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>> >
>> > Mini One wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents. IMO you
>> >> haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>> >
>> > Maybe I can't, and that inability causes me distress? The reasons
>> > for that may be personal - they aren't anyone else's business but
>> > mine. Why can't you understand that?
>> Because I think it's cultural, nothing more. I have six names. Four
>> of which are "last" names. They trace my family history. They include
>> my father's last name, my mother's maiden name, and the names of my
>> grandparents. One first name is my father's grandmother's first name.
>> So, my parents & grandparents aren't a secret to anyone who see's my
>> passport.
>
> How would you feel if one of those names was strange to you, the name
> of a person you'd never met, and who entered briefly, and
> unfortunately, into your family's history?
Several of those names are strange to me. I've never met my father's
side of the family. Although I did know my father briefly. He died when
I was five. He's still registered as my father, I still carry his
names. That can't be changed.
>> > My description of a police state would include an a priori
>> > assumption that all the details of a citizen's life are the
>> > business of the state. That seems to corresond with the theory (if
>> > not the practice) of Dutch bureaucracy.
>> A police state to me is:
>> a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means
>> of police (especially secret police), i.e. a state in which the
>> government maintains strict control over the population, particularly
>> through suspension of civil rights, usually by means of a force of
>> secret police.
>> This is Iran, not the Netherlands. You don't lose your civil rights
>> by showing a long form birth certificate.
>
> Again - I disagree. I consider it my civil right to not be obliged to
> disclose personal information to the least of bureaucrats for no
> reason.
Take your case to the "authorities". They may agree with you & let you
do whatever you need to do without disclosing your parents names.
Quite frankly I'm a bit tired of everyone moving to different countries
with different cultures and expecting them to change the rules for the
new comers. Apparently, the Dutch (and others) don't find this to be a
civil right issue.
In Switzerland you still must take the man's name if you get married
there. I don't agree with this, so I won't get married in this country.
Simple.
Sep 11th 2005, 10:16 pm
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 12:06:09 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected] :
>> On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>news:[email protected] :
>>>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a passport
>>>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things
>about
>>>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of the
>>>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in order
>>>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same time.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my
>mother,
>>>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you
>from
>>>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I
>think
>>>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not an
>>>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol test
>>>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>>>
>>>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>>>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
>>
>> because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
>>
>>> IMO you
>>>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>
>> It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
>Well, no, he didn't. Maybe he tried....
Amnyway it wasn't me. :-)
--
Martin
>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected] :
>> On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>news:[email protected] :
>>>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a passport
>>>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things
>about
>>>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of the
>>>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in order
>>>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same time.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my
>mother,
>>>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you
>from
>>>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I
>think
>>>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not an
>>>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol test
>>>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>>>
>>>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>>>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
>>
>> because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
>>
>>> IMO you
>>>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>
>> It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
>Well, no, he didn't. Maybe he tried....
Amnyway it wasn't me. :-)
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 10:24 pm
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
On 12 Sep 2005 12:16:04 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected] roups.com:
>>
>> Mini One a écrit :
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126470940.155701.169200
>>> @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>> >
>>> > Mini One wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents. IMO you
>>> >> haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>> >
>>> > Maybe I can't, and that inability causes me distress? The reasons
>>> > for that may be personal - they aren't anyone else's business but
>>> > mine. Why can't you understand that?
>>> Because I think it's cultural, nothing more. I have six names. Four
>>> of which are "last" names. They trace my family history. They include
>>> my father's last name, my mother's maiden name, and the names of my
>>> grandparents. One first name is my father's grandmother's first name.
>>> So, my parents & grandparents aren't a secret to anyone who see's my
>>> passport.
>>
>> How would you feel if one of those names was strange to you, the name
>> of a person you'd never met, and who entered briefly, and
>> unfortunately, into your family's history?
>Several of those names are strange to me. I've never met my father's
>side of the family. Although I did know my father briefly. He died when
>I was five. He's still registered as my father, I still carry his
>names. That can't be changed.
>>> > My description of a police state would include an a priori
>>> > assumption that all the details of a citizen's life are the
>>> > business of the state. That seems to corresond with the theory (if
>>> > not the practice) of Dutch bureaucracy.
>>> A police state to me is:
>>> a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means
>>> of police (especially secret police), i.e. a state in which the
>>> government maintains strict control over the population, particularly
>>> through suspension of civil rights, usually by means of a force of
>>> secret police.
>>> This is Iran, not the Netherlands. You don't lose your civil rights
>>> by showing a long form birth certificate.
>>
>> Again - I disagree. I consider it my civil right to not be obliged to
>> disclose personal information to the least of bureaucrats for no
>> reason.
>Take your case to the "authorities". They may agree with you & let you
>do whatever you need to do without disclosing your parents names.
>Quite frankly I'm a bit tired of everyone moving to different countries
>with different cultures and expecting them to change the rules for the
>new comers. Apparently, the Dutch (and others) don't find this to be a
>civil right issue.
Wrong about "others" the European Court does.
On paper Jeremy is being asked for far more information than we were
ever asked for when we registered in NL. Somebody appears to be trying
to change the rules now.
--
Martin
>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected] roups.com:
>>
>> Mini One a écrit :
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126470940.155701.169200
>>> @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>> >
>>> > Mini One wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents. IMO you
>>> >> haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>> >
>>> > Maybe I can't, and that inability causes me distress? The reasons
>>> > for that may be personal - they aren't anyone else's business but
>>> > mine. Why can't you understand that?
>>> Because I think it's cultural, nothing more. I have six names. Four
>>> of which are "last" names. They trace my family history. They include
>>> my father's last name, my mother's maiden name, and the names of my
>>> grandparents. One first name is my father's grandmother's first name.
>>> So, my parents & grandparents aren't a secret to anyone who see's my
>>> passport.
>>
>> How would you feel if one of those names was strange to you, the name
>> of a person you'd never met, and who entered briefly, and
>> unfortunately, into your family's history?
>Several of those names are strange to me. I've never met my father's
>side of the family. Although I did know my father briefly. He died when
>I was five. He's still registered as my father, I still carry his
>names. That can't be changed.
>>> > My description of a police state would include an a priori
>>> > assumption that all the details of a citizen's life are the
>>> > business of the state. That seems to corresond with the theory (if
>>> > not the practice) of Dutch bureaucracy.
>>> A police state to me is:
>>> a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means
>>> of police (especially secret police), i.e. a state in which the
>>> government maintains strict control over the population, particularly
>>> through suspension of civil rights, usually by means of a force of
>>> secret police.
>>> This is Iran, not the Netherlands. You don't lose your civil rights
>>> by showing a long form birth certificate.
>>
>> Again - I disagree. I consider it my civil right to not be obliged to
>> disclose personal information to the least of bureaucrats for no
>> reason.
>Take your case to the "authorities". They may agree with you & let you
>do whatever you need to do without disclosing your parents names.
>Quite frankly I'm a bit tired of everyone moving to different countries
>with different cultures and expecting them to change the rules for the
>new comers. Apparently, the Dutch (and others) don't find this to be a
>civil right issue.
Wrong about "others" the European Court does.
On paper Jeremy is being asked for far more information than we were
ever asked for when we registered in NL. Somebody appears to be trying
to change the rules now.
--
Martin
Sep 11th 2005, 10:26 pm
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Holland actually a police state?
Martin <[email protected]> wrote in news:j9lai114k71mf43a8rkjjmvjqt3hle4em0
@4ax.com:
> On 12 Sep 2005 12:06:09 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected] m:
>>> On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>news:[email protected] m:
>>>>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a
passport
>>>>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things
>>about
>>>>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of
the
>>>>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in
order
>>>>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same
time.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my
>>mother,
>>>>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you
>>from
>>>>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I
>>think
>>>>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not
an
>>>>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol
test
>>>>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>>>>
>>>>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>>>>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
>>>
>>> because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
>>>
>>>> IMO you
>>>>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>>
>>> It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
>>Well, no, he didn't. Maybe he tried....
>
> Amnyway it wasn't me. :-)
I know.
@4ax.com:
> On 12 Sep 2005 12:06:09 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected] m:
>>> On 11 Sep 2005 21:41:25 +0200, Mini One <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>Martin <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>news:[email protected] m:
>>>>> On 11 Sep 2005 06:52:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Mini One wrote:
>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote in news:1126380248.717999.220320
>>>>>>> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>>>>>> >> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>>>> >> news:[email protected] oups.com:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> If you want services from the state, such as e.g. a
passport
>>>>>>> >> >> or a voting registration, they need to know some things
>>about
>>>>>>> >> >> you, mostly for avoiding confusing with other people of
the
>>>>>>> >> >> same name, and for avoidance of fake identities.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > Why do they need to know more than I need to provide in
order
>>>>>>> >> > to obtain a passport?
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Passport is an example. They are asking all the information
>>>>>>> >> needed for all the services you might ask for at the same
time.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > What service requires the name of the person that raped my
>>mother,
>>>>>>> > or the girl I divorced 20 years ago?
>>>>>>> The purpose of asking for your parents is to differentiate you
>>from
>>>>>>> the zillion other John Smiths or Janie Greens in the world. I
>>think
>>>>>>> you are being overly sensitive. The name of your parents is not
an
>>>>>>> unreasonable request. The result of your IQ test, cholesterol
test
>>>>>>> or a sample of your DNA is unreasonable.
>>>>>>I disagree, for the reasons I've stated. My identity is legally
>>>>>>established by my passport. I am distinguished from the other John
>>>>>>Smiths by my passport number.
>>>>>
>>>>> and by being called Jeremy and your date of birth.
>>>>I still don't see the problem of identifying your parents.
>>>
>>> because it is completely unnecessary and none of their business.
>>>
>>>> IMO you
>>>>haven't established a reasonable description of a "police state".
>>>
>>> It was Jeremy who established it was a police state.
>>Well, no, he didn't. Maybe he tried....
>
> Amnyway it wasn't me. :-)
I know.
