Jesper Lauridsen

On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:01:52 -0500, grey wrote:

    >About the "standards"--what about all the illegit drivers on the roads
    >in Britain now because they can't pass a test that may be too tough?

Would they be less of a hazard if the standard of the test had been
lowered to their level?

--
Ask me for directions.

Alan Harrison

"Brent P" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In article , CliveM wrote:
    > > Backing out of a driveway would be a fail!
    > Does one have to back in, instead?

It is preferred. The general idea is that you drive forwards whenever
possible from a minor to a major thoroughfare - especially your drive to a
public road. This may well mean reversing into a drive or parking space.

Alan Harrison

Alan Harrison

"Bob" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:20:25 Barbara Vaughan
    > wrote:
    > >If I understood correctly, in the UK you are
    > >expected to bring the car to a stop with the use of the hand brake, but
    > >maybe that was a misunderstanding.
    > >
    > I'm not sure where you got that misinformation,

A reasonable, but mistaken, inference from an earlier post, Bob. I knew what
the poster meant, but I'm British and have been driving here for 30+ years.
I can easily understand Dr Vaughan's misatke.

Alan Harrison

nightjar

"Frank Matthews" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > nightjar wrote:
....
    > > Those are very basic vehicle handling skills.
    > Yes, it's amazing how often I've found it necessary to back around a
    > corner. Wait a minute. Surely it's happened at least once in the last
    > 40 years. Well I guess not. But it's still a really basic skill.
    > Perhaps everyone should have to do it while towing a trailer.

I use it for the reason it was taught to me - to turn around using a side
road - drive past a minor road on the left, stop by the kerb, reverse back
into the side road, then make a right turn into the major road. I use it
about every 2-3 weeks, when I visit friends who live in a road where the
easiest way to leave is back along the road I came in on.

Colin Bignell

Alan Harrison

"CeeJay" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In all other ways, you were correct - a dual carriageway is little more
than
    > a mini-motorway. What separates a dual carriageway A-road from a motorway
is
    > the number of exits, and the degree of the bends.
Not qite. Some may be quasi-motorways, like the A38 for much of its route
between Birmingham and Derby, and then from Derby to the junction with the
M1 near Alfreton. These stretches of road lack roundabouts and crossroads.
Minor roads cross above or below the dual carriageway, with motorway-style
slip roads. Other dual carriageways, like the urbans stretches of the same
road in the cities of Birmingham and Derby, conform much more to "normal"
roads, with crossroads, with or without traffic lights, roundabouts,
pedestrians crossing the road, etc.

Alan Harrison

Alan Harrison

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote in message
news:...
    > Also, why the requirement to use the hand brake? Do cars in the
    > YooKay activate the brake lights with the hand brake on

No, precisely the opposite! Many modern British cars are now fitted with
high-level brake lights. It's no joke being stuck behind some twat at
traffic lights who can't be arsed to put his hand-brake on, and instead
keeps his foot down, blinding the driver behind with an array of red lights
in his rear window fit for an Amsterdam knocking shop.

Alan Harrison

Terry

BrianE wrote:
    >
    > "Barbara Vaughan" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Getting a Driver's License Is a Royal Pain in Britain
    > >
    > > Can someone explain to me why you're supposed to use your hand brake
    > > instead of your foot brake when stopping at a red light?
    > >
    > > Barbara
    >
    > You mean, you really really can't work that out for yourself?
    >
    > Just imagine you're on an incline, when you take your foot off the brake you
    > roll back into the motorist behind.
    >
    > Now, if you followed the correct procedure as is explained by your
    > instructor regarding a hill start, then this wouldn't happen.
    >
    > For the purpose of the driving test can you explain why you have a problem
    > with the handbrake. Millions of us have manged so far...
    >
    > Just go with the flow, follow the rules and you'll cruise the test.
    >
    > B.

Interesting; I have an issue because here (eastern Canada) have
just bought a 5 speed manual 2002 Nissan, assembled in the US
btw, which doesn't have a 'hand brake'!
What it does have is a foot operated 'parking brake'. This is
identical to the 'parking brake' many years ago of our three
speed automatic 1976 Chev. which we then used for towing a
caravan. The point is that as one pushes it down with the left
foot it clicks and 'locks on', to release it one use the right
hand to trip the 'parking brake release' whereupon it springs
back. No such thing as 'easing off' on the hand/foot brake. It's
basically an 'ON' or 'OFF' device and clumsy. But maybe it's
acceptance and extolling it as a virtue tells something about
lack of skill of many drivers? It is possible to manipulate these
foot operated parking brakes as an emergency stopping brake and
we did/do practice that especially when we were towing just in
case! And found that we could, if necessary, bring the 1976 Chev.
and a heavy (by UK standards) trailer/caravan to a stop in an
emergency loss of power assisted foot brakes, which in those days
were a single system to all four wheels!
But manipulating the release mechanism, so it can be modulated by
the left foot, uses the right hand and now with manual that hand
should (we drive on the right here) be handling the gear shift to
also slow down and control the vehicle!
Apparently to auto reviewers in one leading auto magazine this
foot operated parking brake was touted as an 'improvement' of the
2002. Can't think why!
Personally we prefer a proper hand brake that you can actually
use to slow down the back wheels while continuing to steer with
the front wheels in slippery icy conditions and/or use if the
foot brakes fail! (We lost the rear power assisted brakes on our
1991 Nissan pickup on one occasion, with a fairly heavy load in
the back; the proper hand brake helped us come to some reasonable
stops and get the vehicle in for repairs. What happened was that
a 'rebuilt' master cylinder lost pressure to the part of the dual
system to the rear brakes!) We are considering ways that we can
fit our new 2002 truck with a 'proper hand brake' possibly using
the hand brake quadrant lever etc. from the 1991 now scrapped due
to mileage and corrosion.
So how one would take that UK 'hand brake' test with such a
system is a puzzle? It sounds like an antiquated rule; do you
mean to say that every time one stops at a red light or stop sign
one puts on and then releases the hand brake????
Granted there seemed to be far fewer stop lights in the UK than
in North America and that keeps the relatively heavy UK traffic
moving along briskly. Here (again an area of eastern Canada) the
proliferation of traffic lights creates a nightmare of stop
start, petrol consuming, clutch wearing (maybe that's why 85% of
vehicles here are automatics?) brake wearing, driving. But
frankly I don't think a considerable percentage of our drivers
could handle roundabouts (traffic circles) in the proficient
manner of UK drivers. There would be, IMHO, a lot of collisions
and a lot more "they dunnit, we didn't" arguments.
For example; one basic four way intersection traffic light, in an
older residential part of the main city here, was removed, as
unnecessary and replaced by simple four way 'stop and go' signs;
vehicle first to arrive or to the right if simultaneously takes
precedence. There were so many accidents and this in a small city
of around 100,000 persons, that the lights were reinstalled at
considerable expense a few months later; so roundabouts - no way.
So that may give some idea of the lack of skill of many drivers!
IMO UK drivers can take a bow about good driving skills. I say.
"Well done Chaps"! (Oops: that's not politically correct now is
it? How does one say "and Chapesses"?). And no jokes about
"wimmin drivers" please. OK?
Cheers.
PS. So from this and some other frank posts by us North Americans
you may be getting a more accurate picture of how well (or
badly!) we North Americans drive in comparison to UK drivers! No
wonder our insurance rates are high!

Terry

Alan Harrison wrote:
    >
    > "Brent P" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > In article , CliveM wrote:
    > > > Backing out of a driveway would be a fail!
    > >
    > > Does one have to back in, instead?
    > >
    >
    > It is preferred. The general idea is that you drive forwards whenever
    > possible from a minor to a major thoroughfare - especially your drive to a
    > public road. This may well mean reversing into a drive or parking space.
    >
    > Alan Harrison

Here we are 'not supposed' to back out into the street; but it is
often ignored, even in front of the police! From a practical
point of view it IS safer to drive out, into the morning traffic
than waiting for a break, possibly in both directions of traffic,
and back out. It is certainly understood that while traffic
driving along the street has 'right of way' such motorists will
often, especially in bad winter conditions, slow down or stop to
give the 'backer out' a break. Such 'courtesy' is sometimes a
nuisance; but one never knows when ones self may need such a
break to get out of a snow drift even driving FORWARDS!
Eastern Canada.

Ignasi Palou-Rivera

"JohnT" writes:
    > "Ignasi Palou-Rivera" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > [email protected] (Ricardo) writes:
    > > > Otoh, one probably doesn't even NEED a driver's licence in the UK. I
    > > > got by perfectly ok without one.
    > >
    > > Driving or not driving? Most of the UK's public transportation is
    > > pretty crappy these days, and in all cases it's quite expensive. But
    > > then what isn't too expensive in the UK?
    >
    > Care to offer some examples?

Let's see, examples of what?

The London Underground is certainly good but at UKP 1.60 for Zone 1
tickets is not cheap. Compare that to the NYC Subway costs $1.50 or
the Paris Metro at EUR 1.30

Public transport in other cities in the UK is much much worse. I used
to live in the Greater Manchester area and it was quite a pain. And in
the contry side it's much worse. (Check what people leaving in the
country side in the UK are complaining about, when you get past the
dumb arguments about hunting.)

A general comparison of cost of living between the UK and the rest of
Europe will highlight amny of my arguments too.

BTW, I have trimmed the newsgroup lists to those more-or-less relevant
to the discussion. An excerpt of The Guardian on April 10, 2002
(http://money.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,...1213,00.html):

According to the research, which was carried out for The
MarketPlace by the Centre for Economic and Business Research,
the cost of living in Spain is 26% lower than in the UK, while
in Italy it is 23% less. The study also found that Britons are
having to work longer for their money than their European
counterparts, with people in the UK averaging a 8.7 hour day,
an hour more than the average Italian works.

Is that enough?

Geoff McCaughan

In rec.travel.europe nightjar wrote:

    > wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...

    >> It also calls for such
    >> maneuvers as driving backwards around a corner and up the street along
    >> the curb. Touch the curb with the wheel and you flunk.

    > Those are very basic vehicle handling skills. You don't even have to be able
    > to park in a restricted space. While that was fine when I took my test -
    > there were not many places outside the very centre of London where you could
    > not just draw up to the kerb - it is a necessary skill in most places these
    > days.

How is "driving backwards around a corner" a basic skill - I've never needed
to do it in all the years I've been driving, and it sounds like a bloody
dangerous practice.

Terry

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
    >
    > In article , [email protected]
    > says...
    >
    > >My car is constantly and properly serviced, but I still prefer to use
    > >both the engine and the brakes, in tandem, to bring it to a stop.
    >
    > I very rarely do this. I rely on my brakes to slow me down. Changing
    > brake pads is cheap and easy. Changing a clutch is expensive and time
    > consuming.
    > -----------------
    > Alex __O
    > _-\ (_)/ (_)
    >

True. I was taught the same way; maybe braking systems were not
as good back then. (1950s) But, 'using the gears' gives more
control of the vehicle especially if it's rear wheel drive. Also
if one to drive on snowy or icy roads?
Our clutches last 120,000 to 150,000 kilometres, (90,000 mi?)
we've just put our first replacement clutch in our 1995 Nissan
pickup truck at 148,000. Although the dealer MAY have put one in
when we bought it used in 1997 at 30,000.
Brakes we do more frequently; especially front caliper/rotor
brakes, but in part because of the corrosive conditions;
callipers bind and you should see the condition of the rear
drums; we did one side rear last night and at the above mentioned
150,000 it was it was a case of replacing the very rusty drum.
Had to use a bl##dy great hammer to get off!
One advantage of doing these repairs one selves is that you
'know' the quality of the parts used and also can take care of
any items which a mechanic under time pressure (or fixed price?)
might have to forego.
Even with an automatic (or perhaps because of it) here, under
winter conditions, drivers will sometimes shift an automatic to a
lower gear thus using 'engine braking' through the transmission
rather than braking and possibly skidding one or more of the
wheels; although ABS which we are just getting used to for the
first time MAY help under 'heavy braking' in slippery conditions.
We'll find out more about it this winter!
Also an example: I recall one extreme instance (freezing
rain/sleet) where several vehicles had gone off the road on a
hill; about 50 miles out from any settlement of any size btw,
applying the brakes just caused them to slide bodily. Finally
coaxed my vehicle down by putting in reverse and with rear wheels
turning slowly backwards steering with unbraked front wheels was
able to slowly/gingerly negotiate down the hill (called "Mile
Long Hill" BTW just to give some idea!). It was uncanny; speeding
up the engine caused the rear wheels to spin faster 'backwards'
thus slowing the vehicles descent! Extreme example maybe, but
illustrates 'vehicle control' using the transmission as opposed
to braking. Eh?
Cheers.

Terry

gill107 wrote:

    > The probable reason though is that with the hand brake on the car is fully
    > under control instead of only partially with one foot on the brake and the
    > other on the clutch for a quick getaway. One slip of the foot and you've
    > shot forward into a hazardous situation.

Makes good safety sense. Similar to keeping your steering wheels
straight ahead until you are ready and it is safe to turn!
Also we are told that it is not good to sit 'in gear with the
clutch pedal depressed.
Is said to cause undue/premature wear of the clutch/throwout
bearing. We try to avoid doing this, but not always, in the
stop/start conditions here (too many da%n traffic lights!) while
driving. So while we have always changed the whole clutch
assembly when doing infrequent 'clutch jobs' we have never
perceived any undue wear other than the clutch plate etc.

Terry

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
    > One reason I would
    > be so happy for it to be retroactive is that so many of the current drivers
    > on the road who don't think about driving when they are driving would lose
    > their license.

Father; rest his soul, used to say he enjoyed driving in BAD
weather!
All the poor drivers had 'pranged' themselves and all the nervous
ones had stayed home!
Personally I try not drive at all when I don't have to!
Cheers.

Terry

Bob wrote:
    >
    > Whilst on the subject, I've found (when hiring cars in Italy) that
    > Italians generally seem to leave their cars in 1st gear after turning
    > off the ignition... and don't apply the hand brake!

We tend to do both. Lots'a hills here!
Some newer vehicles (including ours) seem to have interlock; i.e.
engine won't crank at all unless clutch fully depressed (whether
in gear or not)!

R J Carpenter

"Geoff McCaughan" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > How is "driving backwards around a corner" a basic skill - I've never
needed
    > to do it in all the years I've been driving, and it sounds like a bloody
    > dangerous practice.

Well, not quite "backing around a corner", but years ago when I lived in the
Boston area, one was well-advised to look both ways when walking across a
one-way street. Cars would be backing toward you at speed far too often.