In article <[email protected]>, "Nightjar"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Thomas Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > I spend a couple of days in Italy last week. I've never been there before and I
    > > pretty much like what I saw, smelled and ate. I think spending a couple of weeks
    > > there would be really nice. But there seems to be a language barrier.
    >
    > I don't speak Italian* but that did not stop me, when I got lost in a back street
    > in Rome, from receiving perfectly intelligible and very helpful directions from an
    > Italian who didn't speak English, French or German. There was quite a lot of arm
    > waving involved though. It never bothers me to go to a country where I don't speak
    > the language as I have always found it possible, sometimes with the help of a
    > pocket dictionary, to communicate essential needs.
    >
    > * i.e. I don't speak any useful amount of Italian. It is one of several languages
    > for which I know a few basic phrases.
    >
    > Colin Bignell

French is the language that I simply can't hear -- and I am sure my pronunciation
makes me pretty unintelligible with my few phrases -- but I have on several occasions
managed rather complex directions with the 'walky finger' arm waving approach to
directions. As long as you can get your goal across [maybe even by showing a written
address] the non English speaker can often provide enough walky/wavy information to
get you to the right spot -- or closer where you can start over again. My greatest
triumph involved directions to a hotel in the pouring rain at night in the French
countryside from a farmer walking a donkey by the road. Had no trouble following his
waves and turns --

ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, unless you are anywhere next to a major tourist attraction and you
can find some guides, other tourists, students... Forget about it if you go to a non
touristic place... Also the level of english knowledge is terribly low and the accent
is awful, you will have a hard time finding somebody who speaks english and a hard
time understanding their accent if you even are so lucky to find somebody... I was
once in the train station of Taranto, and the guy at the ticket booth wouldn't even
know a word of english to help an old british lady... I had to jump in and translate
for her or she would have been lost, if it was up to him...

Polar wrote:

    > On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:12:18 -0500, [email protected] (hamilton) wrote:
    >
    >
    >>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Miguel
    >>Cruz) wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English I
    >>>>was always told that you can get anywhere with this language. So I was a bit
    >>>>disappointed that this is not true. Was it ever true?
    >>>>
    >>>More than with any other language. Almost anywhere you go, someone will be able to
    >>>come up with an English speaker given sufficient interest in helping you out.
    >>>However that's different from assuming that all people everywhere actually speak
    >>>it fluently themselves.
    >>>
    >>>As to whether that's something to be disappointed about, that's probably a
    >>>controversial question.
    >>>
    >>we ran across a very disgruntled [and rather rude]= Chinese woman in Rome who was
    >>quite perturbed that everyone couldn't speak English -- since that is how she had
    >>prepared to travel to Europe. We gave her a list of basic Italian phrases -- but
    >>she was too miffed to care.
    >>
    >>Once you get outside outright tourist shops in Italy or Spain, the odds are good
    >>that people won't speak any English. It is pretty important to have the minimum of
    >>getting around ability in Italian or Spanish. To acquire this is fairly simple.
    >>
    >
    > Carry a *good* phrase book. If they don't understand your pronunciation, show them
    > the words in the book. You will see faces light up and help is on the way!
    >
    > I would add that the Italians are MUCH more considerate of travelers who even *try*
    > to get out a few phrases in their languages.
    >
    > After living in France for some years, and speaking reasonable French (had it at
    > university and picked up more on the ground), I moved to Italy. Immediately I noted
    > a great difference in the attitude of the French and Italians toward people who try
    > to speak their respective languages.
    >
    > With the caveat that my French experience was mostly in Paris, and that things
    > might be better out in the provinces, I would say that the French will just stare
    > at you and do nothing to help.
    >
    > But the Italians are so warm and eager, that if you are partway through a phrase
    > and get stuck, they will finish it for you. If you have your "learning antennae"
    > up, you will not only deal with the immediate situatioin, but will take note of
    > what they said and add it to your repertoire. Taking notes is useful.
    >
    > Within two weeks of arriving in Italy, I was getting along pretty well because (a)
    > I CARED a lot! and (b) because I paid close attention not only to my interlocutor's
    > helpful phrases, but to billboards, newspapers, radio/TV programs - in short all
    > the learning opportunities that are out there, if you just take advantage of them.
    >
    > This does *not* make me special; just someone who cares deeply about communicating
    > with the host country's people, and who -- confession time -- is a language
    > professional, so use all the tricks in my playbook.
    >
    > (end fervent speech <g>)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Polar
    >

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"www.chaindlk.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, unless you are anywhere next to a major tourist attraction and
    > you can find some guides, other tourists, students... Forget about it if you go to
    > a non touristic place... Also the level of english knowledge is terribly low and
    > the accent is awful, you will have a hard time finding somebody who speaks english
    > and a hard time understanding their accent if you even are so lucky to find
    > somebody... I was once in the train station of Taranto, and the guy at the ticket
    > booth wouldn't even know a word of english to help an old british lady... I had to
    > jump in and translate for her or she would have been lost, if it was up to him...

She didn't even know the word for ticket or the place she wanted to go? You could
look at the sign over the window and see the word biglietti, and if you don't know
the name of the place you need to go, Italian won't help. In the worst case, an agent
will write the cost for you. Any small phrasebook would do for this situation. Not
having one is ridiculous.

You can travel anywhere in Europe without knowing the local language. I've done it!
And I'm still here to tell the tale!

I do not so much want to reply directly to the earlier posting I saw. I'm not sure it
was intended sincerely. However, lest somebody reads it and thinks it to be true, let
me tell you that the things the writer said are not typical of Italy in particular
and Europe in general.

If you are not fluent in Italian (or Greek, Czech, French, etc.) you can still
travel, without a guide, in Italy and anywhere else. Everywhere you travel, people
whom a tourist may meet will be happy to communicate with you and help you to spend
your money.

In many countries, such as Italy, it is common to find that ordinary people know
little English. You probably will fall short if you expect to get into a fluent
argument about local politics or religion. However, the people whom you as a tourist
will meet usually know a bit of English, or know how to find somebody who does.

Since Europe has so many different languages, anyone serving the tourist industry
must have communiciations skills. And they do, especially in Italy. The lingua franca
of travel in Europe is English. How many Czechs know Dutch? Not many. When they meet,
they use English.

People use calculators and note pads to communicate things like numbers, prices and
times. They use gestures and simple, internationally-understood words. The road signs
are all pictograms or simple words, such as "STOP" which is universal.

If you are like me, you're not fluent in Italian, but that doesn't mean that you are
unwilling to try. Anyone can learn the numbers from 1-20 and a few basic polite words
for please, thank-you, yes and no, etc. I prepare a little script to read over the
telephone for making hotel reservations along the way in the local language if they
don't have someone an English speaker on hand.

By far the best book I have seen for traveling on your own when you don't speak the
local language is Rick Steves "Europe Through the Back Door." Steves quickly parts
company with all the other travel writers by telling you that if you're not already
enroled in an Italian course, it is too late to start now. Concentrate on some simple
communication techniques (such as using simple, international words) and you'll have
no trouble. Do not waste your money on a phrase book. You simply can't keep up with
conversational Italian flipping through phrase books, and it's unnecessary anyway.
You'll do fine if you just use your head.

Don't be intimidated by fear mongers and popular misconceptioneers!

Let me know if I can help further!

David

In article <[email protected]>, David <[email protected]> wrote:

    > You can travel anywhere in Europe without knowing the local language. I've done it!
    > And I'm still here to tell the tale!
    >
    > I do not so much want to reply directly to the earlier posting I saw. I'm not sure
    > it was intended sincerely. However, lest somebody reads it and thinks it to be
    > true, let me tell you that the things the writer said are not typical of Italy in
    > particular and Europe in general.
    >
    > If you are not fluent in Italian (or Greek, Czech, French, etc.) you can still
    > travel, without a guide, in Italy and anywhere else. Everywhere you travel, people
    > whom a tourist may meet will be happy to communicate with you and help you to spend
    > your money.
    >
    > In many countries, such as Italy, it is common to find that ordinary people know
    > little English. You probably will fall short if you expect to get into a fluent
    > argument about local politics or religion. However, the people whom you as a
    > tourist will meet usually know a bit of English, or know how to find somebody
    > who does.
    >
    > Since Europe has so many different languages, anyone serving the tourist industry
    > must have communiciations skills. And they do, especially in Italy. The lingua
    > franca of travel in Europe is English. How many Czechs know Dutch? Not many. When
    > they meet, they use English.
    >
    > People use calculators and note pads to communicate things like numbers, prices and
    > times. They use gestures and simple, internationally-understood words. The road
    > signs are all pictograms or simple words, such as "STOP" which is universal.
    >
    > If you are like me, you're not fluent in Italian, but that doesn't mean that you
    > are unwilling to try. Anyone can learn the numbers from 1-20 and a few basic polite
    > words for please, thank-you, yes and no, etc. I prepare a little script to read
    > over the telephone for making hotel reservations along the way in the local
    > language if they don't have someone an English speaker on hand.
    >
    > By far the best book I have seen for traveling on your own when you don't speak the
    > local language is Rick Steves "Europe Through the Back Door." Steves quickly parts
    > company with all the other travel writers by telling you that if you're not already
    > enroled in an Italian course, it is too late to start now. Concentrate on some
    > simple communication techniques (such as using simple, international words) and
    > you'll have no trouble. Do not waste your money on a phrase book. You simply can't
    > keep up with conversational Italian flipping through phrase books, and it's
    > unnecessary anyway. You'll do fine if you just use your head.
    >
    > Don't be intimidated by fear mongers and popular misconceptioneers!
    >
    > Let me know if I can help further!
    >
    > David

a person who goes to a country without at least acquiring a dozen or so simple
phrases including basic politeness phrases is a boor --

David wrote:

[snip]

    > ... Steves quickly parts company with all the other travel writers by telling you
    > that if you're not already enroled in an Italian course, it is too late to start
    > now. Concentrate on some simple communication techniques (such as using simple,
    > international words) and you'll have no trouble.

I wouldn't discourage someone who wants to take a course in Italian. How does Steves
know how early they're consulting his book? Also, if it's too late, rather than
simple "international" phrases, I'd suggest simple Italian phrases, some of which are
fairly international as well.

    > Do not waste your money on a phrase book. You simply can't keep up with
    > conversational Italian flipping through phrase books, and it's unnecessary anyway.
    > You'll do fine if you just use your head.

I have often found a phrase book useful in situations where I didn't know the
language. Not for making conversation, but for pointing to something so that the
other person could read it.

Barbara

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<snip>

    > By far the best book I have seen for traveling on your own when you don't speak the
    > local language is Rick Steves "Europe Through the Back Door." Steves quickly parts
    > company with all the other travel writers by telling you that if you're not already
    > enroled in an Italian course, it is too late to start now.

I've never seen a travel guide that suggests that you enroll in an Italian course, or
even that a fundamental knowledge of Italian is necessary to travel to Italy.

    > Concentrate on some simple communication techniques (such as using simple,
    > international words) and you'll have no trouble. Do not waste your money on a
    > phrase book.

Phrase books are extremely useful when you need the right word for something, e.g.
"dry cleaners." I just look it up in my small phrase book, and point to it.

Incidently, the most useless phrase book I've ever seen was Rick Steve's German. It's
packed with all sorts of little gems, such as how to say, "I was drunk last night,"
and "I was very, very drunk last night." It contains a number of gutter insults, but
is remarkably light on more useful expressions.

    > You simply can't keep up with conversational Italian flipping through phrase books,
    > and it's unnecessary anyway. You'll do fine if you just use your head.
    >
    > Don't be intimidated by fear mongers and popular misconceptioneers!
    >
    > Let me know if I can help further!
    >
    > David

Paul Tauger wrote:

    > "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > By far the best book I have seen for traveling on your own when you don't speak
    > > the local language is Rick Steves "Europe Through the Back Door." Steves quickly
    > > parts company with all the other travel writers by telling you that if you're not
    > > already enroled in an Italian course, it is too late to start now.
    >
    > I've never seen a travel guide that suggests that you enroll in an Italian course,
    > or even that a fundamental knowledge of Italian is necessary to travel to Italy.
    >
    > > Concentrate on some simple communication techniques (such as using simple,
    > > international words) and you'll have no trouble. Do not waste your money on a
    > > phrase book.
    >
    > Phrase books are extremely useful when you need the right word for something, e.g.
    > "dry cleaners." I just look it up in my small phrase book, and point to it.
    >
    > Incidently, the most useless phrase book I've ever seen was Rick Steve's German.
    > It's packed with all sorts of little gems, such as how to say, "I was drunk last
    > night," and "I was very, very drunk last night." It contains a number of gutter
    > insults, but is remarkably light on more useful expressions.

Agreed. My mother bought me his German phrase book before I went on holiday to
Germany and Austria, and basically, I learned how to swear. The phrases in the backs
of Frommers, Fodors and Lonely Planet were much more helpful for *practical*
information.

A.
--
From last year:

"This is the last class before the exam. If you don't let me go to class, I won't
pass the exam. If I don't pass the exam, I won't pass the class. If I don't pass the
class, I won't get my degree."

"I think you put too much pressure on yourself."

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David) wrote:


    > If you are not fluent in Italian (or Greek, Czech, French, etc.) you can still
    > travel, without a guide, in Italy and anywhere else. Everywhere you travel, people
    > whom a tourist may meet will be happy to communicate with you and help you to spend
    > your money.

It is true that language difficulties are most easily surmounted when you want to
spend money and someone else wants to take it from you!

    > Since Europe has so many different languages, anyone serving the tourist industry
    > must have communiciations skills. And they do, especially in Italy. The lingua
    > franca of travel in Europe is English. How many Czechs know Dutch? Not many.
    > When they meet, they use English.

It is worth pointing out, though, that the ease of using English differs dramatically
from country to country. For example, I wouldn't advise anyone visiting Denmark or
Sweden for a couple of days to bother trying to learn the language -- English is
spoken so widely there, and so well, and there's no resentment if you don't know the
local language.

(For a longer trip to Scandinavia, of course, you probably will benefit from picking
up a little of the local language. And as the earlier poster said, you'd have to be
deliberately obtuse *not* to do so from signage, menus etc.)

However, the story is quite different in (say) rural parts of the Czech Republic,
where you will definitely be better off knowing a little Czech or German.

    > If you are like me, you're not fluent in Italian, but that doesn't mean that you
    > are unwilling to try. Anyone can learn the numbers from 1-20 and a few basic
    > polite words for please, thank-you, yes and no, etc. I prepare a little script to
    > read over the telephone for making hotel reservations along the way in the local
    > language if they don't have someone an English speaker on hand.

That's a good idea. I also usually tear out (or if I'm sufficiently organised,
photocopy) the three-or-four-page basic vocabularies found in Rough Guide/Lonely
Planet guidebooks, so I can carry a basic primer without hauling a phrasebook around.

Barnaby

On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:35:42 GMT, David <[email protected]> wrote:

    >You can travel anywhere in Europe without knowing the local language. I've done it!
    >And I'm still here to tell the tale!

I've heard it's ok travel without knowing any of the local language as long as you
have an International Driver's License

Gordon

Gordon Forbess <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I've heard it's ok travel without knowing any of the local language as long as you
    > have an International Driver's License

Sure - it serves as a Rosetta Stone for common starter conversations. If you want to
ask someone how old they are, what's their name, where they're from, whether or not
they require corrective eyewear... the words are all right there for you.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini
photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Very good advice. Half the fun of travelling is looking for that "common ground," and
some of my most memorable experiences are from successfully managing to communicate
with someone who knows no English. Especially older women -- I've had them drag me
down the street to find someone who can help
me.

I just came back from Croatia. I learned a few words, having heard that most younger
folks speak English (and I can handle some German). I always said "hvala," (thank
you), and at least three times people came back at me with "You speak Croatian?" in
English. They seemed genuinely touched that I bothered to try.

I started learning German because in Central and Eastern Europe, people think I'm
German first, then British. (I'm American ) I've noticed many service workers, etc.
will mix the two languages (they'll offer "orange saft" for breakfast, for instance,
or interchange hotel, restaurant, and transportation related words). Since it's
impossible to thoroughly learn the language of every country I want to visit, I've
found knowledge of a second prominent language to be invaluable.

Sarah

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > You can travel anywhere in Europe without knowing the local language. I've done it!
    > And I'm still here to tell the tale!
    >
    > If you are not fluent in Italian (or Greek, Czech, French, etc.) you can still
    > travel, without a guide, in Italy and anywhere else. Everywhere you travel, people
    > whom a tourist may meet will be happy to communicate with you and help you to spend
    > your money.
    >
    > In many countries, such as Italy, it is common to find that ordinary people know
    > little English. You probably will fall short if you expect to get into a fluent
    > argument about local politics or religion. However, the people whom you as a
    > tourist will meet usually know a bit of English, or know how to find somebody
    > who does.
    >
    > Since Europe has so many different languages, anyone serving the tourist industry
    > must have communiciations skills. And they do, especially in Italy. The lingua
    > franca of travel in Europe is English. How many Czechs know Dutch? Not many. When
    > they meet, they use English.
    >
    > People use calculators and note pads to communicate things like numbers, prices and
    > times. They use gestures and simple, internationally-understood words. The road
    > signs are all pictograms or simple words, such as "STOP" which is universal.
    >
    > If you are like me, you're not fluent in Italian, but that doesn't mean that you
    > are unwilling to try. Anyone can learn the numbers from 1-20 and a few basic polite
    > words for please, thank-you, yes and no, etc. I prepare a little script to read
    > over the telephone for making hotel reservations along the way in the local
    > language if they don't have someone an English speaker on hand.
    >
.
    >
    > Don't be intimidated by fear mongers and popular misconceptioneers!
    >
    > Let me know if I can help further!
    >
    > David

Paul Tauger <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Incidently, the most useless phrase book I've ever seen was Rick Steve's German.
    > It's packed with all sorts of little gems, such as how to say, "I was drunk last
    > night," and "I was very, very drunk last night." It contains a number of gutter
    > insults, but is remarkably light on more useful expressions.

Let's Go Egypt/Israel guide has a few phrases at the end. I think they realised it
was a bit useless, but there's a bit of humour when they have the following:

English Hebrew Arabic

Can I buy you a drink? [something in hebrew] You will never need to use this phrase

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne
(dot) co (dot) uk

<[email protected]> wrote:

    > It is true that language difficulties are most easily surmounted when you want to
    > spend money and someone else wants to take it from you!

My partner and I often talk Spanish when we don't want to be understood in a shop
while we discuss the price of something. Invariably, we've found this to be a useless
policy in any of the big European (note: _not_ UK) street markets, where they seem to
speak almost everything.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne
(dot) co (dot) uk

Alright, I'll bite . . . does it really say that? There's a well-known travel writer,
Bryce or Bryson, I think is his name, that referes to that particular book as, "Let's
Go Get Another Guide."

"David Horne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1fdhm1y.1uutd5baa500sN%[email protected]...
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > It is true that language difficulties are most easily surmounted when
you
    > > want to spend money and someone else wants to take it from you!
    >
    > My partner and I often talk Spanish when we don't want to be understood in a shop
    > while we discuss the price of something. Invariably, we've found this to be a
    > useless policy in any of the big European (note: _not_ UK) street markets, where
    > they seem to speak almost everything.
    >
    > David
    >
    > --
    > David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer in Association- RLPO david (at)
    > davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk