Thomas Adams wrote:
    > there seems to be a language barrier . . . What's it like in areas that are more
    > attractive to tourists than Bologna?

I have encountered many a language barrier but I have never found a communication
barrier. It is my belief that if you're faced with a communication barrier, it's
probably your fault.

We were delighted with the few hours we spent in Bologna. We are still astonished
that it's not a major destination.

«¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤ ¦ ¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤-¤» ICONO CLAST -- A
San Franciscan in 47.335 mile² San Francisco http://geocities.com/dancefest/
IClast at SFbay Net

    >We were delighted with the few hours we spent in Bologna. We are still astonished
    >that it's not a major destination.

I have been in Bologna every Feb for a trade show for the past 15 years.

The Bologna of today is radically different than it was 15 years ago. Takes a long
time for tour books and guides to be rewritten.

"Tony Day" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In other words.....
    >
    > Italians don't see any reason to engage in conversation with a slob in a baseball
    > cap shouting at them from a wall....
    >
    > Not that I'm suggesting......

I love you, too.

"Judith" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > If someone walked up to you in your town and asked if you spoke Chinese, what
    > would you do?

If you believe it or not, I would escort them to the next Chinese take-away or
food-shop in the hope of finding somebody with the right language skills. Otherwise I
could find out the phone number of the Chinese embassy so they could call them.

I would not leave them alone and walk away without anybody else nearby who could
help them.

    > Most Italians do not speak English well,

Neither do I.

    > even if they have a little. It intimidates them and makes them shy.

I feel the same way. But I think a mixture of Italian (which I tried to learn before
my trip), English and other languages should make communication possible. Or am I
asking too much?

    > I speak Italian and English, a modicum of French. I got lost in Karlsruhe, Germany
    > a couple of weeks ago and went to a police station and similarly found no one who
    > spoke any language I know. I went to a

That's strange. Did they let you go without going out of their way to help you?

    > Yes, there is a language barrier. It's Italy; they speak Italian. The barrier is
    > yours, not theirs. It is a country, however, where making strangers feel good is
    > still a goal. You won't get a lot of conversation level English, but will be able
    > to get what you need.

I don't even have a problem with learning at least a little bit of their language.
But if you are noticed about a trip two weeks before departure there's only so much
you can do.

And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English I was
always told that you can get anywhere with this language. So I was a bit disappointed
that this is not true. Was it ever true?

    > easy even with pretty darn good Italian. If you go to the seaside or Florence or
    > Rome you will find much more English.

Is the food as good as in Bologna? One of the few travel guides that covers Emilia
Romagna mentioned the superiority of its cuisine.

Vera Izrailit <[email protected]> wrote:

    > When "parla inglese?" and "parla francese?" fail I try to explain myself in broken
    > Italian the best I can, often guessing at the words I do not know. So far most
    > people have been patient and all of them understood what I had to say. A somewhat
    > bigger problem was when I was trying to understand their answer.

That's another problem for me. As soon as they heard me talking Italian they somehow
assumed I could understand them and talked to me like I didn't have that barrier.

    > And you really don't wanna know how I had to explain myself when I needed a toilet
    > plunger once.

Send MPEG

Icono Clast <[email protected]> wrote:

    > communication barrier, it's probably your fault.

The more I think of it the more I tend to agree with you. If only I knew what I
did wrong.

    > We were delighted with the few hours we spent in Bologna. We are still astonished
    > that it's not a major destination.

I guess tourists miss the beach. And I think you have to have a knack for old
buildings to really enjoy Bologna. Well, I liked it a lot.

"Thomas Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Judith" <[email protected]> wrote: I feel the same way. But I think a
    > mixture of Italian (which I tried to learn before my trip), English and other
    > languages should make communication possible. Or am I asking too much?
    >
    > > I speak Italian and English, a modicum of French. I got lost in Karlsruhe,
    > > Germany a couple of weeks ago and went to a police station and similarly found no
    > > one who spoke any language I know. I went to a
    >
    > That's strange. Did they let you go without going out of their way to help you?
If you go to the seaside or
    > > Florence or Rome you will find much more English.
    >
    > Is the food as good as in Bologna? One of the few travel guides that covers
    > Emilia Romagna mentioned the superiority of its cuisine.

Emilia-Romagna is still a noted food area. The food is different from other parts,
but Puglia and Tuscany/Umbria are also known for food, and ... wait a minute, the
whole darned country is known for good food! Firenze is very touristed and
expensive. So is Venice. In both those places it pays to research a little ahead of
time to find good places. Otherwise, get off touristed streets and go to places
where the menus probably aren't translated. There are many reviews for those places
at www.slowtravel.com . Like I said, look for youngsters in the 16 yr old range.
You just ran into a person who once he told you he didn't speak English was
embarrassed to go on with you. In a cheap little cafe in my small Italian city,
there is a waitress who has learned enough of English, French, Spanish, German and
Japanese to help people get fed. The average tab at this place is Euro 11. When
people who don't have enough Italian come in, they send over Lorena. Lorena and I
cannot talk about the books I lend her in English, but we can discuss cooking and
wine in English very well. Puo aiutarmi? is a good question to know. If an Italian
thinks you need help, I don't think he will let language get in the way. I
routinely stop and try to help tourists deal with parking machines, directions,
places their kids can run around in, whatever. We are a friendly country and you
should just try over if you run into a wall.

Judith wrote:

    > Firenze is very touristed and expensive. So is Venice. In both those places it pays
    > to research a little ahead of time to find good places.

In my experience, although both cities are loaded with tourists, the food in Venice
is typically much more expensive than that in Florence. And although there's
excellent food to be had in both cities, it's a lot harder to find in Venice. Walk
into almost any trattoria in Florence and the food is likely to be decent, if not
great. Do the same in Venice, and you're likely to get a poor meal.

On the other hand, in either city there's certainly nothing wrong with doing as you
suggest, and doing research beforehand.

--
Ken Blake Please reply to the newsgroup

On Fri, 31 May 2002 18:15:10 +0200, Barbara Vaughan
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Thomas Adams wrote:

[ snip ]

    >> Isn't this odd? How do people without knowledge of Italian survive in Italy?
    >> What's it like in areas that are more attractive to tourists than Bologna?

    >Your experience is the opposite of my own. I now live in Italy, but when I first
    >visited there, I spoke no Italian at all. I managed to get by with gestures and a
    >little Spanish. I found people very willing to exert an effort to communicate even
    >if they spoke no English. Bologna was one of the cities I visited on my second trip
    >to Italy, when I still spoke no more Italian than the routine polite phrases. I like
    >Bologna a lot and didn't find people unwilling to communicate with me in a
    >combination of English, Spanish and fractured Italian. I even ended up having a long
    >political discussion with a Bolognese student, using my daughter, who had studied a
    >little Italian but was far from fluent, as an intermediary.

Another story similar to Ms. Vaughan's: My wife and I were in Bologna several years
ago, We had seen on an English-language soccer show that the Bologna FC had recently
recorded a video and CD, and we were interested in buying one. Neither of us spoke
much more than tourist Italian, but we went into a record store and managed to
communicate what it was that we desired. The store personnel were most patient and
gracious (especially considering as it turned out that the CD was done for charity,
so the store was not making any money). They sent someone into the back room, and
after several minutes of searching, he found the CD. I often wonder what they said
about the crazy Americani who came in wanting the Bologna FC CD?

(In the interest of full disclosure, some of my ancestors came from Bologna to the US
a century ago; my family did not speak Italian at home, with the exception of food
items. Thus, I am fairly good at menu Italian, and I feel a distant need to stand up
for the Bolognese)

Regards,

George
************************************************** ********************
Dr. George O. Bizzigotti Telephone: (703) 610-2115 Mitretek Systems, Inc. Fax: (703)
610-1558 3150 Fairview Park Drive South E-Mail: [email protected] Falls
Church, Virginia, 22042-4519
************************************************** ********************

TEST--== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =TEST--

Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
    > And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English I
    > was always told that you can get anywhere with this language. So I was a bit
    > disappointed that this is not true. Was it ever true?

More than with any other language. Almost anywhere you go, someone will be able to
come up with an English speaker given sufficient interest in helping you out. However
that's different from assuming that all people everywhere actually speak it fluently
themselves.

As to whether that's something to be disappointed about, that's probably a
controversial question.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini
photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Miguel
Cruz) wrote:

    > Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English I
    > > was always told that you can get anywhere with this language. So I was a bit
    > > disappointed that this is not true. Was it ever true?
    >
    > More than with any other language. Almost anywhere you go, someone will be able to
    > come up with an English speaker given sufficient interest in helping you out.
    > However that's different from assuming that all people everywhere actually speak it
    > fluently themselves.
    >
    > As to whether that's something to be disappointed about, that's probably a
    > controversial question.

we ran across a very disgruntled [and rather rude]= Chinese woman in Rome who was
quite perturbed that everyone couldn't speak English -- since that is how she had
prepared to travel to Europe. We gave her a list of basic Italian phrases -- but she
was too miffed to care.

Once you get outside outright tourist shops in Italy or Spain, the odds are good that
people won't speak any English. It is pretty important to have the minimum of getting
around ability in Italian or Spanish. To acquire this is fairly simple.

How did non-english speaking people do ? Don't they travel ? If you're frightened
when people don't speak english, don't travel !! It's not a troll , but for me
travelling is not only looking at nice churches through a bus window. Travelling
means discovering the world : the world's languages, the world's people, the world's
cuisine, the world's music,etc,etc...

"hamilton" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Miguel
    > Cruz) wrote:
    >
    > > Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English
    > > > I was always told that you can get anywhere with this
language.
    > > > So I was a bit disappointed that this is not true. Was it ever true?
    > >
    > > More than with any other language. Almost anywhere you go, someone will
be
    > > able to come up with an English speaker given sufficient interest in
helping
    > > you out. However that's different from assuming that all people
everywhere
    > > actually speak it fluently themselves.
    > >
    > > As to whether that's something to be disappointed about, that's probably
a
    > > controversial question.
    >
    > we ran across a very disgruntled [and rather rude]= Chinese woman in Rome who was
    > quite perturbed that everyone couldn't speak English -- since that is how she had
    > prepared to travel to Europe. We gave her a list of basic Italian phrases -- but
    > she was too miffed to care.
    >
    > Once you get outside outright tourist shops in Italy or Spain, the odds are good
    > that people won't speak any English. It is pretty important to have the minimum of
    > getting around ability in Italian or Spanish. To acquire this is fairly simple.

hamilton <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Once you get outside outright tourist shops in Italy or Spain, the odds are good
    > that people won't speak any English. It is pretty important to have the minimum of
    > getting around ability in Italian or Spanish. To acquire this is fairly simple.

In January I was the only uninvolved witness to a scary traffic accident in southern
Spain. I can get around in Spanish as a tourist, but I never picked up the vocabulary
necessary to accurately describe things involving physics.

I have to admit I was pretty surprised at how many people joined the process without
a single English speaker among them. Ironically enough, if the same had happened in
many places in the USA, finding a Spanish speaker would have been no problem!

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini
photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:12:18 -0500, [email protected] (hamilton) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Miguel
    >Cruz) wrote:
    >
    >> Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> > And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English I
    >> > was always told that you can get anywhere with this language. So I was a bit
    >> > disappointed that this is not true. Was it ever true?
    >>
    >> More than with any other language. Almost anywhere you go, someone will be able to
    >> come up with an English speaker given sufficient interest in helping you out.
    >> However that's different from assuming that all people everywhere actually speak
    >> it fluently themselves.
    >>
    >> As to whether that's something to be disappointed about, that's probably a
    >> controversial question.
    >
    >we ran across a very disgruntled [and rather rude]= Chinese woman in Rome who was
    >quite perturbed that everyone couldn't speak English -- since that is how she had
    >prepared to travel to Europe. We gave her a list of basic Italian phrases -- but she
    >was too miffed to care.
    >
    >Once you get outside outright tourist shops in Italy or Spain, the odds are good
    >that people won't speak any English. It is pretty important to have the minimum of
    >getting around ability in Italian or Spanish. To acquire this is fairly simple.

Carry a *good* phrase book. If they don't understand your pronunciation, show them
the words in the book. You will see faces light up and help is on the way!

I would add that the Italians are MUCH more considerate of travelers who even *try*
to get out a few phrases in their languages.

After living in France for some years, and speaking reasonable French (had it at
university and picked up more on the ground), I moved to Italy. Immediately I noted a
great difference in the attitude of the French and Italians toward people who try to
speak their respective languages.

With the caveat that my French experience was mostly in Paris, and that things might
be better out in the provinces, I would say that the French will just stare at you
and do nothing to help.

But the Italians are so warm and eager, that if you are partway through a phrase and
get stuck, they will finish it for you. If you have your "learning antennae" up, you
will not only deal with the immediate situatioin, but will take note of what they
said and add it to your repertoire. Taking notes is useful.

Within two weeks of arriving in Italy, I was getting along pretty well because (a) I
CARED a lot! and (b) because I paid close attention not only to my interlocutor's
helpful phrases, but to billboards, newspapers, radio/TV programs - in short all the
learning opportunities that are out there, if you just take advantage of them.

This does *not* make me special; just someone who cares deeply about communicating
with the host country's people, and who -- confession time -- is a language
professional, so use all the tricks in my playbook.

(end fervent speech <g>)

--
Polar

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    > On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:12:18 -0500, [email protected] (hamilton) wrote:
    >
    > >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Miguel
    > >Cruz) wrote:
    > >
    > >> Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> > And then there is this "world language" thing. When I started to learn English
    > >> > I was always told that you can get anywhere with this language. So I was a bit
    > >> > disappointed that this is not true. Was it ever true?
    > >>
    > >> More than with any other language. Almost anywhere you go, someone will be able
    > >> to come up with an English speaker given sufficient interest in
helping
    > >> you out. However that's different from assuming that all people everywhere
    > >> actually speak it fluently themselves.
    > >>
    > >> As to whether that's something to be disappointed about, that's probably a
    > >> controversial question.
    > >
    > >we ran across a very disgruntled [and rather rude]= Chinese woman in Rome who was
    > >quite perturbed that everyone couldn't speak English -- since that is how she had
    > >prepared to travel to Europe. We gave her a list of basic Italian phrases -- but
    > >she was too miffed to care.
    > >
    > >Once you get outside outright tourist shops in Italy or Spain, the odds are good
    > >that people won't speak any English. It is pretty important to have the minimum of
    > >getting around ability in Italian or Spanish. To acquire this is fairly simple.
    >
    > Carry a *good* phrase book. If they don't understand your pronunciation, show them
    > the words in the book. You will see faces light up and help is on the way!

but Italian IS the easiest of all languages to pronounce -- generally if you know a
word or two and can gesture, you are home free
    >
    > I would add that the Italians are MUCH more considerate of travelers who even *try*
    > to get out a few phrases in their languages.

oh absolutely -- what it does is make clear that the defect is YOURS for not speaking
their language not that you expect them to speak yours -- and this is a much more
polite way to seek information or help than in your own language