French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)
May 23rd 2003, 10:15 pm
#136
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 11:54:42 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> So German inflation of 0.1% with no indication
>> that it'll go up is a good thing?
>Yes. The ideal long-term evolution of prices is no change at all, i.e., 0%.
>I've never understood how economists get the idea that inflation is good.
>Just because it is virtually ubiquitous in human societies doesn't make it
>good.
Such stability is completely impractical in real life, and because of
that it's better to have some growth because "it'll be cheaper
tomorrow" will always make people postpone purchases/investment etc.
which will reduce growth.
Jim.
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> So German inflation of 0.1% with no indication
>> that it'll go up is a good thing?
>Yes. The ideal long-term evolution of prices is no change at all, i.e., 0%.
>I've never understood how economists get the idea that inflation is good.
>Just because it is virtually ubiquitous in human societies doesn't make it
>good.
Such stability is completely impractical in real life, and because of
that it's better to have some growth because "it'll be cheaper
tomorrow" will always make people postpone purchases/investment etc.
which will reduce growth.
Jim.
May 23rd 2003, 11:27 pm
#137
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Such stability is completely impractical in real
> life ...
If people believe it to be impractical, it will be.
[email protected]...
> Such stability is completely impractical in real
> life ...
If people believe it to be impractical, it will be.
May 23rd 2003, 11:33 pm
#138
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 13:27:03 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Such stability is completely impractical in real
>> life ...
>If people believe it to be impractical, it will be.
Hardly, the implication of completely stable prices, would mean that
the workers in 3rd world currently producing consumer goods could
never raise their incomes other than by increasing productivity or a
reduction in the raw materials cost - since there's inflation in your
utopia - the raw materials cost can't change therefore they can only
increase their productivity. I certainly don't want to alleviate
world porverty by that method alone - I'd much rather see them raise
their prices...
Jim.
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Such stability is completely impractical in real
>> life ...
>If people believe it to be impractical, it will be.
Hardly, the implication of completely stable prices, would mean that
the workers in 3rd world currently producing consumer goods could
never raise their incomes other than by increasing productivity or a
reduction in the raw materials cost - since there's inflation in your
utopia - the raw materials cost can't change therefore they can only
increase their productivity. I certainly don't want to alleviate
world porverty by that method alone - I'd much rather see them raise
their prices...
Jim.
May 24th 2003, 1:57 am
#139
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Hardly, the implication of completely stable
> prices, would mean that the workers in 3rd world
> currently producing consumer goods could never
> raise their incomes other than by increasing
> productivity or a reduction in the raw materials
> cost ...
What's wrong with increasing productivity? That's how rich countries get
rich, after all.
> ... the raw materials cost can't change therefore
> they can only increase their productivity.
So?
> I certainly don't want to alleviate world porverty
> by that method alone - I'd much rather see them raise
> their prices...
Why? You don't favor education, automation, equality for women and
children, and technological advancement?
--
Swap hotmail and mxsmanic to e-mail me for real.
[email protected]...
> Hardly, the implication of completely stable
> prices, would mean that the workers in 3rd world
> currently producing consumer goods could never
> raise their incomes other than by increasing
> productivity or a reduction in the raw materials
> cost ...
What's wrong with increasing productivity? That's how rich countries get
rich, after all.
> ... the raw materials cost can't change therefore
> they can only increase their productivity.
So?
> I certainly don't want to alleviate world porverty
> by that method alone - I'd much rather see them raise
> their prices...
Why? You don't favor education, automation, equality for women and
children, and technological advancement?
--
Swap hotmail and mxsmanic to e-mail me for real.
May 24th 2003, 2:18 am
#140
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 15:57:36 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Hardly, the implication of completely stable
>> prices, would mean that the workers in 3rd world
>> currently producing consumer goods could never
>> raise their incomes other than by increasing
>> productivity or a reduction in the raw materials
>> cost ...
>What's wrong with increasing productivity? That's how rich countries get
>rich, after all.
It is indeed, but due to the fact we have severe inequality between
rich and poor, I believe that should be balanced out, that isn't going
to happen if everyone in the world is equally productive, but 3rd
world workers are paid a fraction of their first world equivalents.
It's simply unfair - you may be happy to not see prices rise on the
backs of underpaid 3rd world workers, but I'm not.
Jim.
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Hardly, the implication of completely stable
>> prices, would mean that the workers in 3rd world
>> currently producing consumer goods could never
>> raise their incomes other than by increasing
>> productivity or a reduction in the raw materials
>> cost ...
>What's wrong with increasing productivity? That's how rich countries get
>rich, after all.
It is indeed, but due to the fact we have severe inequality between
rich and poor, I believe that should be balanced out, that isn't going
to happen if everyone in the world is equally productive, but 3rd
world workers are paid a fraction of their first world equivalents.
It's simply unfair - you may be happy to not see prices rise on the
backs of underpaid 3rd world workers, but I'm not.
Jim.
May 24th 2003, 2:44 am
#141
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> It is indeed, but due to the fact we have severe
> inequality between rich and poor, I believe that
> should be balanced out, that isn't going
> to happen if everyone in the world is equally
> productive ...
Why not?
> ... but 3rd world workers are paid a fraction of
> their first world equivalents.
They won't be, if they are equally productive. They are poorly paid because
they do work that isn't worth lots of money.
[email protected]...
> It is indeed, but due to the fact we have severe
> inequality between rich and poor, I believe that
> should be balanced out, that isn't going
> to happen if everyone in the world is equally
> productive ...
Why not?
> ... but 3rd world workers are paid a fraction of
> their first world equivalents.
They won't be, if they are equally productive. They are poorly paid because
they do work that isn't worth lots of money.
May 24th 2003, 2:52 am
#142
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 16:44:59 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> It is indeed, but due to the fact we have severe
>> inequality between rich and poor, I believe that
>> should be balanced out, that isn't going
>> to happen if everyone in the world is equally
>> productive ...
>Why not?
Because the current situation in the world is that workers in the 1st
world are paid more than identically productive workers in the 3rd, to
overcome this the 3rd world worker needs to raise his wages, not
simply raise his productivity, he's already as productive as his 1st
counterpart.
>> ... but 3rd world workers are paid a fraction of
>> their first world equivalents.
>They won't be, if they are equally productive. They are poorly paid because
>they do work that isn't worth lots of money.
Garbage, they're underpaid because they are willing to work for a
relative pittance compared to what a 1st world worker would be willing
to be paid (a 1st world worker for example is interested in travelling
etc.)
If a computer maker shifts production of their computers from the 1st
world to the 3rd, they reduce their labour costs, if they have 1 plant
in the 1st and 1 in the 3rd world, the workers do identical jobs, but
are paid differently, it's got little to do with the value of the
work.
Jim.
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> It is indeed, but due to the fact we have severe
>> inequality between rich and poor, I believe that
>> should be balanced out, that isn't going
>> to happen if everyone in the world is equally
>> productive ...
>Why not?
Because the current situation in the world is that workers in the 1st
world are paid more than identically productive workers in the 3rd, to
overcome this the 3rd world worker needs to raise his wages, not
simply raise his productivity, he's already as productive as his 1st
counterpart.
>> ... but 3rd world workers are paid a fraction of
>> their first world equivalents.
>They won't be, if they are equally productive. They are poorly paid because
>they do work that isn't worth lots of money.
Garbage, they're underpaid because they are willing to work for a
relative pittance compared to what a 1st world worker would be willing
to be paid (a 1st world worker for example is interested in travelling
etc.)
If a computer maker shifts production of their computers from the 1st
world to the 3rd, they reduce their labour costs, if they have 1 plant
in the 1st and 1 in the 3rd world, the workers do identical jobs, but
are paid differently, it's got little to do with the value of the
work.
Jim.
May 24th 2003, 3:33 am
#143
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Because the current situation in the world
> is that workers in the 1st world are paid more
> than identically productive workers in the 3rd ...
Generally because they are doing work that is worth a lot more money, which
in turn is a form of higher productivity.
> Garbage, they're underpaid because they are
> willing to work for a relative pittance ...
Only in jobs that are worth a relative pittance. For these relatively
worthless jobs, First-World workers are often overpaid, thanks to unions and
other factors. Third-World workers get only what such work is actually
worth, and that isn't much.
For highly-qualified jobs, the situation is different. They pay a lot more,
but the Third World doesn't get them because it lacks the productivity
necessary to obtain them.
--
Swap hotmail and mxsmanic to e-mail me for real.
[email protected]...
> Because the current situation in the world
> is that workers in the 1st world are paid more
> than identically productive workers in the 3rd ...
Generally because they are doing work that is worth a lot more money, which
in turn is a form of higher productivity.
> Garbage, they're underpaid because they are
> willing to work for a relative pittance ...
Only in jobs that are worth a relative pittance. For these relatively
worthless jobs, First-World workers are often overpaid, thanks to unions and
other factors. Third-World workers get only what such work is actually
worth, and that isn't much.
For highly-qualified jobs, the situation is different. They pay a lot more,
but the Third World doesn't get them because it lacks the productivity
necessary to obtain them.
--
Swap hotmail and mxsmanic to e-mail me for real.
May 24th 2003, 3:47 am
#144
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 17:33:51 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Because the current situation in the world
>> is that workers in the 1st world are paid more
>> than identically productive workers in the 3rd ...
>Generally because they are doing work that is worth a lot more
> money, which in turn is a form of higher productivity.
No they're not, Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical phones in
Finland and the developing world don't pay their workers identical
wages, equally car builders, building identical cars - even between
1st world countries there's wage differentials, the ones between 1st
and 3rd are extreme though.
Identical workers in different countries are not paid the same.
>> Garbage, they're underpaid because they are
>> willing to work for a relative pittance ...
>Only in jobs that are worth a relative pittance. For these relatively
>worthless jobs, First-World workers are often overpaid, thanks to unions and
>other factors.
The reasons why the wage differentials exist is irrelevant, either the
1st world needs to reduce those wages (resulting in deflation) or the
3rd world needs to increase (resulting in inflation) there's no chance
of price stability and getting a more equitable world. You may not
care about an equitable world, but I do, hence I don't want price
stability but some inflation.
>For highly-qualified jobs, the situation is different. They pay a lot more,
>but the Third World doesn't get them because it lacks the productivity
>necessary to obtain them.
The 3rd world has plenty of highly qualified jobs, and a number of
others which are exactly comparable to jobs in the first world.
For example in the UK night time call centers are often manned in
India, whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs identical, yet the
Scottish workers recieve a lot higher wage. Where's the productivity
difference here?
Jim.
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Because the current situation in the world
>> is that workers in the 1st world are paid more
>> than identically productive workers in the 3rd ...
>Generally because they are doing work that is worth a lot more
> money, which in turn is a form of higher productivity.
No they're not, Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical phones in
Finland and the developing world don't pay their workers identical
wages, equally car builders, building identical cars - even between
1st world countries there's wage differentials, the ones between 1st
and 3rd are extreme though.
Identical workers in different countries are not paid the same.
>> Garbage, they're underpaid because they are
>> willing to work for a relative pittance ...
>Only in jobs that are worth a relative pittance. For these relatively
>worthless jobs, First-World workers are often overpaid, thanks to unions and
>other factors.
The reasons why the wage differentials exist is irrelevant, either the
1st world needs to reduce those wages (resulting in deflation) or the
3rd world needs to increase (resulting in inflation) there's no chance
of price stability and getting a more equitable world. You may not
care about an equitable world, but I do, hence I don't want price
stability but some inflation.
>For highly-qualified jobs, the situation is different. They pay a lot more,
>but the Third World doesn't get them because it lacks the productivity
>necessary to obtain them.
The 3rd world has plenty of highly qualified jobs, and a number of
others which are exactly comparable to jobs in the first world.
For example in the UK night time call centers are often manned in
India, whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs identical, yet the
Scottish workers recieve a lot higher wage. Where's the productivity
difference here?
Jim.
May 24th 2003, 4:15 am
#145
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical
> phones in Finland and the developing world
> don't pay their workers identical wages ...
They don't do their engineering or management in the Third World, either.
> Identical workers in different countries are
> not paid the same.
True, but only because First-World workers are paid too much for work that
is almost worthless. The Third-World workers are paid what the work is
actually worth, since they have no unions.
The good-paying jobs are not exported to the Third-World, since nobody there
is qualified to hold them, and even if some such people can be found, they
can demand nearly as much as they would receive in the home country of the
company.
> The reasons why the wage differentials exist
> is irrelevant ...
Indeed? Productivity doesn't matter ... reasons for wage differentials are
irrelevant ... you have unconventional views.
> You may not care about an equitable world, but
> I do, hence I don't want price stability but
> some inflation.
Your methods would produce unpleasant results incongruent with your
expectations, I think.
> The 3rd world has plenty of highly qualified
> jobs ...
Really, where?
> For example in the UK night time call centers
> are often manned in India ...
Customer service is not a highly-qualified job. It's at about the same
level as serving coffee in a café.
> ... whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs
> identical, yet the Scottish workers recieve a lot
> higher wage. Where's the productivity difference here?
There isn't any. The Scottish workers are overpaid.
[email protected]...
> Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical
> phones in Finland and the developing world
> don't pay their workers identical wages ...
They don't do their engineering or management in the Third World, either.
> Identical workers in different countries are
> not paid the same.
True, but only because First-World workers are paid too much for work that
is almost worthless. The Third-World workers are paid what the work is
actually worth, since they have no unions.
The good-paying jobs are not exported to the Third-World, since nobody there
is qualified to hold them, and even if some such people can be found, they
can demand nearly as much as they would receive in the home country of the
company.
> The reasons why the wage differentials exist
> is irrelevant ...
Indeed? Productivity doesn't matter ... reasons for wage differentials are
irrelevant ... you have unconventional views.
> You may not care about an equitable world, but
> I do, hence I don't want price stability but
> some inflation.
Your methods would produce unpleasant results incongruent with your
expectations, I think.
> The 3rd world has plenty of highly qualified
> jobs ...
Really, where?
> For example in the UK night time call centers
> are often manned in India ...
Customer service is not a highly-qualified job. It's at about the same
level as serving coffee in a café.
> ... whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs
> identical, yet the Scottish workers recieve a lot
> higher wage. Where's the productivity difference here?
There isn't any. The Scottish workers are overpaid.
May 24th 2003, 5:10 am
#146
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 18:15:25 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical
>> phones in Finland and the developing world
>> don't pay their workers identical wages ...
>They don't do their engineering or management in the Third World, either.
Of course they do, look at the the worlds large software companies in
India, all of them do huge amounts of software engineering there.
They don't pay them Silicon Valley wages...
>> Identical workers in different countries are
>> not paid the same.
>True, but only because First-World workers are paid too much for work that
>is almost worthless.
Yes, we've agreed on this, I'm asking what your solution is, leave the
3rd world in poverty, or continue rewarding 1st world workers
unnecessarily?
>The good-paying jobs are not exported to the Third-World, since nobody there
>is qualified to hold them,
Rubbish, India and China almost certainly have a larger number of
highly qualified people than Belgium in almost profession.
>> The reasons why the wage differentials exist
>> is irrelevant ...
>Indeed? Productivity doesn't matter ...
Productivity matters certainly, but productivity levels do not
represent all of the wage differential.
> reasons for wage differentials are irrelevant...
When have I said that? The reasons are relevant, but as far as I can
see your argument is that the 3rd world workers should remain in
poverty so that you can have no inflation.
> you have unconvential views.
My views on inflation seem to be on a par with every central bank in
the world, all of them want some inflation, the UK central bank wants
a midpoint of 2.5%, the Euro central bank wants not more than 2%,
these levels are often criticised as being too low, not too high,
you're just about the first person I've ever met arguing for 0%
inflation.
>> You may not care about an equitable world, but
>> I do, hence I don't want price stability but
>> some inflation.
>Your methods would produce unpleasant results incongruent with your
>expectations, I think.
Well the world has inflation, and there's certainly some evidence that
the 3rd world is getting richer, I'm not arguing for any change, I'm
arguing that the current state is all right (of course lots of change
would probably make it even better, but that's not relevant to the
argument)
>> The 3rd world has plenty of highly qualified jobs ...
>Really, where?
India has one the largest software industries in the world for
example, I'm sure you can find others. Every country has doctors for
example...
>> For example in the UK night time call centers
>> are often manned in India ...
>Customer service is not a highly-qualified job. It's at about the same
>level as serving coffee in a café.
Really? surely that depends on what the call center is for, there are
UK call centers manned by nurses - are nurses not highly qualified?
>> ... whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs
>> identical, yet the Scottish workers recieve a lot
>> higher wage. Where's the productivity difference here?
>There isn't any. The Scottish workers are overpaid.
So they should recieve a pay cut, which would make price stability an
impossibility? Remember you're arguing that 0% inflation rate is the
ideal...
Jim.
rely that depends on what the call center is for, there are UK call
centers manned by nurses - are nurses not hi qualified jobs ...
>Really, where?
India has one the largest software industries in the world for
example, I'm sure you can find others. Every country has doctors for
example...
>> For example in the UK night time call centers
>> are often manned in India ...
>Customer service is not a highly-qualified job. It's at about the same
>level as serving coffee in a café.
Really? surely that depends on what the call center is for, there are
UK call centers manned by nurses - are nurses not highly qualified?
>> ... whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs
>> identical, yet the Scottish workers recieve a lot
>> higher wage. Where's the productivity difference here?
wrote:
>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical
>> phones in Finland and the developing world
>> don't pay their workers identical wages ...
>They don't do their engineering or management in the Third World, either.
Of course they do, look at the the worlds large software companies in
India, all of them do huge amounts of software engineering there.
They don't pay them Silicon Valley wages...
>> Identical workers in different countries are
>> not paid the same.
>True, but only because First-World workers are paid too much for work that
>is almost worthless.
Yes, we've agreed on this, I'm asking what your solution is, leave the
3rd world in poverty, or continue rewarding 1st world workers
unnecessarily?
>The good-paying jobs are not exported to the Third-World, since nobody there
>is qualified to hold them,
Rubbish, India and China almost certainly have a larger number of
highly qualified people than Belgium in almost profession.
>> The reasons why the wage differentials exist
>> is irrelevant ...
>Indeed? Productivity doesn't matter ...
Productivity matters certainly, but productivity levels do not
represent all of the wage differential.
> reasons for wage differentials are irrelevant...
When have I said that? The reasons are relevant, but as far as I can
see your argument is that the 3rd world workers should remain in
poverty so that you can have no inflation.
> you have unconvential views.
My views on inflation seem to be on a par with every central bank in
the world, all of them want some inflation, the UK central bank wants
a midpoint of 2.5%, the Euro central bank wants not more than 2%,
these levels are often criticised as being too low, not too high,
you're just about the first person I've ever met arguing for 0%
inflation.
>> You may not care about an equitable world, but
>> I do, hence I don't want price stability but
>> some inflation.
>Your methods would produce unpleasant results incongruent with your
>expectations, I think.
Well the world has inflation, and there's certainly some evidence that
the 3rd world is getting richer, I'm not arguing for any change, I'm
arguing that the current state is all right (of course lots of change
would probably make it even better, but that's not relevant to the
argument)
>> The 3rd world has plenty of highly qualified jobs ...
>Really, where?
India has one the largest software industries in the world for
example, I'm sure you can find others. Every country has doctors for
example...
>> For example in the UK night time call centers
>> are often manned in India ...
>Customer service is not a highly-qualified job. It's at about the same
>level as serving coffee in a café.
Really? surely that depends on what the call center is for, there are
UK call centers manned by nurses - are nurses not highly qualified?
>> ... whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs
>> identical, yet the Scottish workers recieve a lot
>> higher wage. Where's the productivity difference here?
>There isn't any. The Scottish workers are overpaid.
So they should recieve a pay cut, which would make price stability an
impossibility? Remember you're arguing that 0% inflation rate is the
ideal...
Jim.
rely that depends on what the call center is for, there are UK call
centers manned by nurses - are nurses not hi qualified jobs ...
>Really, where?
India has one the largest software industries in the world for
example, I'm sure you can find others. Every country has doctors for
example...
>> For example in the UK night time call centers
>> are often manned in India ...
>Customer service is not a highly-qualified job. It's at about the same
>level as serving coffee in a café.
Really? surely that depends on what the call center is for, there are
UK call centers manned by nurses - are nurses not highly qualified?
>> ... whilst the daytime in Scotland, the jobs
>> identical, yet the Scottish workers recieve a lot
>> higher wage. Where's the productivity difference here?
May 24th 2003, 5:31 am
#147
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 17:10:54 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Ley) wrote:
>>True, but only because First-World workers are paid too much for work that
>>is almost worthless.
>Yes, we've agreed on this, I'm asking what your solution is, leave the
>3rd world in poverty, or continue rewarding 1st world workers
>unnecessarily?
Anecdotal evidence: I have a young computer-programmer relative in
Raleigh who says that so much programming has gone to India that
freelance pay is down 20-30%.
The high-tech jobs such as semiconductor manufacturing and computer
programming are leaving the US and other countries for cheaper
locales.
Apropos of this, these are two industries that have been in a
deflationary economy for 20-30 years and have done well. Prices of
supplies and prices the companies can charge their customers go down
constantly. They respond by constantly producing innovative new
products to get people to buy, constant improvements in productivity
and by steadfast determination not to hold depreciating inventory.
>>True, but only because First-World workers are paid too much for work that
>>is almost worthless.
>Yes, we've agreed on this, I'm asking what your solution is, leave the
>3rd world in poverty, or continue rewarding 1st world workers
>unnecessarily?
Anecdotal evidence: I have a young computer-programmer relative in
Raleigh who says that so much programming has gone to India that
freelance pay is down 20-30%.
The high-tech jobs such as semiconductor manufacturing and computer
programming are leaving the US and other countries for cheaper
locales.
Apropos of this, these are two industries that have been in a
deflationary economy for 20-30 years and have done well. Prices of
supplies and prices the companies can charge their customers go down
constantly. They respond by constantly producing innovative new
products to get people to buy, constant improvements in productivity
and by steadfast determination not to hold depreciating inventory.
May 24th 2003, 5:52 am
#148
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 15:47:54 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Ley) wrote:
>On Sat, 24 May 2003 17:33:51 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
>wrote:
>>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>>[email protected]...
>>> Because the current situation in the world
>>> is that workers in the 1st world are paid more
>>> than identically productive workers in the 3rd ...
>>Generally because they are doing work that is worth a lot more
>> money, which in turn is a form of higher productivity.
>No they're not, Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical phones in
>Finland and the developing world don't pay their workers identical
>wages, equally car builders, building identical cars - even between
>1st world countries there's wage differentials, the ones between 1st
>and 3rd are extreme though.
>Identical workers in different countries are not paid the same.
Identical workers in different countries don't have the same living
costs. What would be poverty wages in the West buys quite a reasonable
standard of living in many 3rd world countries.
>On Sat, 24 May 2003 17:33:51 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
>wrote:
>>"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
>>[email protected]...
>>> Because the current situation in the world
>>> is that workers in the 1st world are paid more
>>> than identically productive workers in the 3rd ...
>>Generally because they are doing work that is worth a lot more
>> money, which in turn is a form of higher productivity.
>No they're not, Companies like Nokia etc. who make identical phones in
>Finland and the developing world don't pay their workers identical
>wages, equally car builders, building identical cars - even between
>1st world countries there's wage differentials, the ones between 1st
>and 3rd are extreme though.
>Identical workers in different countries are not paid the same.
Identical workers in different countries don't have the same living
costs. What would be poverty wages in the West buys quite a reasonable
standard of living in many 3rd world countries.
May 24th 2003, 6:05 am
#149
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
On Sat, 24 May 2003 18:52:12 +0100, [email protected] wrote:
>On Sat, 24 May 2003 15:47:54 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Ley) wrote:
>>Identical workers in different countries are not paid the same.
>Identical workers in different countries don't have the same living
>costs. What would be poverty wages in the West buys quite a reasonable
>standard of living in many 3rd world countries.
Indeed, but my argument is that we should be aiming to raise the
standard of living of everyone in the world, and that reasonable
standard of living is only possible because it relies on the suppliers
of goods and services to those individuals being at subsistence
levels. The worker can afford to have cleaners etc. but only because
they aren't getting a wage to give themselves a reasonable standard of
living - to bring them up to the standard of a similar 1st world
person, means that the better qualified persons wage will also need to
rise.
Jim.
>On Sat, 24 May 2003 15:47:54 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Ley) wrote:
>>Identical workers in different countries are not paid the same.
>Identical workers in different countries don't have the same living
>costs. What would be poverty wages in the West buys quite a reasonable
>standard of living in many 3rd world countries.
Indeed, but my argument is that we should be aiming to raise the
standard of living of everyone in the world, and that reasonable
standard of living is only possible because it relies on the suppliers
of goods and services to those individuals being at subsistence
levels. The worker can afford to have cleaners etc. but only because
they aren't getting a wage to give themselves a reasonable standard of
living - to bring them up to the standard of a similar 1st world
person, means that the better qualified persons wage will also need to
rise.
Jim.
May 24th 2003, 6:33 am
#150
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Public Toilets [was Re: French Toilet (INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO USE)]
"Jim Ley" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Of course they do, look at the the worlds large
> software companies in India, all of them do huge
> amounts of software engineering there.
That is the exception, not the rule.
> They don't pay them Silicon Valley wages...
They don't pay them typical Third-World wages, either.
> Yes, we've agreed on this, I'm asking what
> your solution is, leave the 3rd world in poverty,
> or continue rewarding 1st world workers
> unnecessarily?
Neither. The Third World must look to education, equality (between men and
women, primarily), and honesty (i.e., lack of corruption) to correct its
problems and improve productivity and the standard of living.
The Third World makes its own problems; the Third World must therefore take
responsibility for fixing them.
> Rubbish, India and China almost certainly have
> a larger number of highly qualified people than
> Belgium in almost profession.
But a lower percentage; in addition, they are exceptions to the rule for the
Third World.
> ... as far as I can see your argument is that
> the 3rd world workers should remain in
> poverty so that you can have no inflation.
What I see is that you are creating connections and correlations where none
existing, confusing your own position and arguments.
> India has one the largest software industries
> in the world for example ...
India is an exception to the rule.
> ... I'm sure you can find others.
No, I can't. List a few.
> Really? surely that depends on what the call
> center is for, there are UK call centers manned
> by nurses - are nurses not highly qualified?
Not compared to doctors; and in any case, what percentage of call centers
are manned by Indian nurses, exactly?
> So they should recieve a pay cut, which would
> make price stability an impossibility?
A pay cut would not affect price instability, since not all jobs are low in
required qualifications. It is usually union workers who are overpaid.
--
Swap hotmail and mxsmanic to e-mail me for real.
[email protected]...
> Of course they do, look at the the worlds large
> software companies in India, all of them do huge
> amounts of software engineering there.
That is the exception, not the rule.
> They don't pay them Silicon Valley wages...
They don't pay them typical Third-World wages, either.
> Yes, we've agreed on this, I'm asking what
> your solution is, leave the 3rd world in poverty,
> or continue rewarding 1st world workers
> unnecessarily?
Neither. The Third World must look to education, equality (between men and
women, primarily), and honesty (i.e., lack of corruption) to correct its
problems and improve productivity and the standard of living.
The Third World makes its own problems; the Third World must therefore take
responsibility for fixing them.
> Rubbish, India and China almost certainly have
> a larger number of highly qualified people than
> Belgium in almost profession.
But a lower percentage; in addition, they are exceptions to the rule for the
Third World.
> ... as far as I can see your argument is that
> the 3rd world workers should remain in
> poverty so that you can have no inflation.
What I see is that you are creating connections and correlations where none
existing, confusing your own position and arguments.
> India has one the largest software industries
> in the world for example ...
India is an exception to the rule.
> ... I'm sure you can find others.
No, I can't. List a few.
> Really? surely that depends on what the call
> center is for, there are UK call centers manned
> by nurses - are nurses not highly qualified?
Not compared to doctors; and in any case, what percentage of call centers
are manned by Indian nurses, exactly?
> So they should recieve a pay cut, which would
> make price stability an impossibility?
A pay cut would not affect price instability, since not all jobs are low in
required qualifications. It is usually union workers who are overpaid.
--
Swap hotmail and mxsmanic to e-mail me for real.
