On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 03:13:47 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
wrote:

    >le Thu, 27 Feb 2003 02:46:35 GMT, dans l'article , Larry & Wanda Finch a dit ...

    >> It is important to be polite yourself; Parisians (and French people in
    >> general) are more formal that we in the US are used to. In the offices I
    >> visited everyone says hello (well, actually "bonjour") when they come
    >> into an office, and also shake hands all around.
    >True. Also, the American habit of using people's first name five minutes
    >after you first meet, will get you short shrift here.

From my visits to France it also seems customary to greet the
shopkeeper with a "bonjour" when one enters. Is this true? If so,
what's the protocol: Does the customer greet first, or the
shopkeeper? How far does this custom extend - is it only in small,
single-proprietor shops or does one also greet the hired staff in
larger shops? What about restaurants or other establishments?

Not that I think anyone would refuse service for failure to greet
them, just "when in Rome..." (or in Nice, or wherever). Please excuse
all the questions but I find these different social customs one of the
more interesting aspects of travel!


___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

le Thu, 27 Feb 2003 03:39:49 GMT, dans l'article , Charles Hawtrey a dit ...=20

    >>> It is important to be polite yourself; Parisians (and French people i=
n
    >>> general) are more formal that we in the US are used to. In the office=
s I
    >>> visited everyone says hello (well, actually "bonjour") when they come
    >>> into an office, and also shake hands all around.

    >>True. Also, the American habit of using people's first name five minut=
es
    >>after you first meet, will get you short shrift here.

    > From my visits to France it also seems customary to greet the
    > shopkeeper with a "bonjour" when one enters. Is this true? If so,
    > what's the protocol: Does the customer greet first, or the
    > shopkeeper? How far does this custom extend - is it only in small,
    > single-proprietor shops or does one also greet the hired staff in
    > larger shops? What about restaurants or other establishments?=20=20

Well if you walk into a 1000m=B2 hypermarket, you're not going to say hel=
lo
to anyone !! As for protocol, there isn't really one. Walk into the
shop, and just say, 'Bonjour, m'sieur' (or 'madame'). Change the greetin=
g
depending on time, i.e. if it's after say 17h00, say 'bonsoir'. If there
is more than one person, say, 'Bonjour, messieurs-'dames'. You're in fac=
t
saying hello to the shopkeeper and to the customers, too ! If you need t=
o
go to a doctor or whatever (and I hope you don't), you'd say the same thi=
ng
to the people in the waiting room.=20=20

    > Not that I think anyone would refuse service for failure to greet
    > them, just "when in Rome..." (or in Nice, or wherever). Please excuse
    > all the questions but I find these different social customs one of the
    > more interesting aspects of travel!

Absolutely, and it's refreshing to be discussing travel on
news:rec.travel.europe, rather than trying to tell someone that the Frenc=
h
_aren't_ 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys'. :-)

Just play it by ear. If the owner of the shop is visible when you walk i=
n,
say hello. C'est de la politesse fran=E7aise ... :-)

--=20
Desmond Coughlan=20
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

In article ,
Desmond Coughlan wrote:

    >
    > > From my visits to France it also seems customary to greet the
    > > shopkeeper with a "bonjour" when one enters. Is this true? If so,
    > > what's the protocol: Does the customer greet first, or the
    > > shopkeeper? How far does this custom extend - is it only in small,
    > > single-proprietor shops or does one also greet the hired staff in
    > > larger shops? What about restaurants or other establishments?
    >
    > Well if you walk into a 1000m2 hypermarket, you're not going to say hello
    > to anyone !! As for protocol, there isn't really one. Walk into the
    > shop, and just say, 'Bonjour, m'sieur' (or 'madame'). Change the greeting
    > depending on time, i.e. if it's after say 17h00, say 'bonsoir'. If there
    > is more than one person, say, 'Bonjour, messieurs-'dames'. You're in fact
    > saying hello to the shopkeeper and to the customers, too !

I think the Japanese exemplify a more enlightened approach, the store
owner feels they are your host and like a good host they greet you long
before you have the chance too. Large Department stores even hire
greeters and place them at the entrances.

jay
Wed, Feb 26, 2003
mailto:[email protected]

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

And just so I am prepared, can somebody please tell me how to say (and
pronounce) the following phrases in French?

"have you been to Normandy"
"you would be speaking German"
"cheese-eating surrender monkey"

Thanks!

Rudy wrote:
    > And just so I am prepared, can somebody please tell me how to say (and
    > pronounce) the following phrases in French?
    > "have you been to Normandy"

Veuillez frapper mon visage.

    > "you would be speaking German"

Dans mon pays nous mangeons des souris pour le petit dejeuner.

    > "cheese-eating surrender monkey"

Je suis presque aussi fute comme un pomme de terre.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

In article ,
[email protected] (Charles Hawtrey) wrote:

    > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 03:13:47 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
    > wrote:
    >
    > >le Thu, 27 Feb 2003 02:46:35 GMT, dans l'article
    > >, Larry & Wanda Finch
    > > a dit ...
    >
    > >> It is important to be polite yourself; Parisians (and French people in
    > >> general) are more formal that we in the US are used to. In the offices I
    > >> visited everyone says hello (well, actually "bonjour") when they come
    > >> into an office, and also shake hands all around.
    > >
    > >True. Also, the American habit of using people's first name five minutes
    > >after you first meet, will get you short shrift here.
    >
    > From my visits to France it also seems customary to greet the
    > shopkeeper with a "bonjour" when one enters. Is this true? If so,
    > what's the protocol: Does the customer greet first, or the
    > shopkeeper? How far does this custom extend - is it only in small,
    > single-proprietor shops or does one also greet the hired staff in
    > larger shops? What about restaurants or other establishments?

you great first -- and err on the side of doing it rather than not --
e.g. in a supermarket, it is not the custom -- but any establishment
where you make eye contact with the proprietor e.g. a small shop, a
restaurant etc, requires it.

And it is equally important to say goodbye formally when you leave.

In article ,
[email protected] (Charles Hawtrey) wrote:

    > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 03:13:47 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
    > wrote:
    >
    > >le Thu, 27 Feb 2003 02:46:35 GMT, dans l'article
    > >, Larry & Wanda Finch
    > > a dit ...
    >
    > >> It is important to be polite yourself; Parisians (and French people in
    > >> general) are more formal that we in the US are used to. In the offices I
    > >> visited everyone says hello (well, actually "bonjour") when they come
    > >> into an office, and also shake hands all around.
    > >
    > >True. Also, the American habit of using people's first name five minutes
    > >after you first meet, will get you short shrift here.
    >
    > From my visits to France it also seems customary to greet the
    > shopkeeper with a "bonjour" when one enters. Is this true? If so,
    > what's the protocol: Does the customer greet first, or the
    > shopkeeper? How far does this custom extend - is it only in small,
    > single-proprietor shops or does one also greet the hired staff in
    > larger shops? What about restaurants or other establishments?

oh and correctly it is not 'bonjour' but 'bonjour Monsieur' or Madam

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:17:43 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, [email protected] (Miguel Cruz)
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... Rudy wrote:
... > And just so I am prepared, can somebody please tell me how to say (and
... > pronounce) the following phrases in French?
... >
... > "have you been to Normandy"
...
... Veuillez frapper mon visage.
...
... > "you would be speaking German"
...
... Dans mon pays nous mangeons des souris pour le petit dejeuner.
...
... > "cheese-eating surrender monkey"
...
... Je suis presque aussi fute comme un pomme de terre.
...
... miguel


Je te dois un verre, Miguel, histoire de te remercier pour cette crise de rire... LOL

======
Due to a lack of interest, tomorrow has been cancelled.

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:13:12 -0600, in rec.travel.europe, Jenn arranged
some electrons, so they looked like this :

...
... you great first -- and err on the side of doing it rather than not --
... e.g. in a supermarket, it is not the custom -- but any establishment
... where you make eye contact with the proprietor e.g. a small shop, a
... restaurant etc, requires it.

In the supermarket you say bonjour to the person who will be nice enough to register your
shopping and take your money.

... And it is equally important to say goodbye formally when you leave.

======
Due to a lack of interest, tomorrow has been cancelled.

"Jenn" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > yada yada yada -- the idea that 'sincere' surliness is preferable to
    > insincere friendliness or politeness seems odd -- the purpose of polite
    > phrases is to lubricate commercial interactions and make them smoother
    > and more pleasant -- what virtue in understanding the 'true' feelings of
    > the person serving you?
    > having put up with the abysmal customer service, particularly of
    > England, I can't imagine why being treated like dirt is less annoying
    > than those slightly annoying chipper servers in American chain
    > restaurants

What I want, and ALL I want, from a waiter is that he takes the order,
answers any questions about the menu, then SHUTS UP!

    > Je suis presque aussi fute comme un pomme de terre.

I am ... like a potato. Good one.

Seriously, to return to the original question, which was serious, can
an American who has been to France in the past month report about
their attitudes?

Thanks!

Jenn wrote in message news:...
    > In article ,
    > [email protected] (David) wrote:
    >
    > > The English for example, are rude and insulting to people they know
    > > and like, and impeccably polite to those they don't. This can be
    > > confusing for others used to it the other way round...
    > > Dave
    >
This is fair comment, and every time I think of it I think of the
"Hunney Bunney" conversation in Pulp Fiction where Tim Roth is talking
to Amanda Plummer about the Bus-Boy on $1.50/hour not taking a cap for
the register. Unfortunately service staff in UK are badly paid and
badly regarded, and there exists a minimal tipping culture. That said,
good service when you find it, is usually sincere.

Cultural differences play a part too, European waiters are not
reknowned for being gushing and ingratiating :-)
Dave

    > not so in customer service where many [certainly not all] shopkeepers
    > and other customer service types are downright rude and surly to
    > customers

In article , David
writes
    >Unfortunately service staff in UK are badly paid
But! the minimum wage applies to them, too.
--
Marie Lewis

In article ,
[email protected] says...
    >
    >
    > Why go to France when you can go to Spain?. I'll never understand that. You get
    > friendly people, great food, excellent service and nice weather. I dare anybody
    > to find that complete package in France.
    >


spain isn't paris. plain and simple. parisians are rude to everyone,
including each other. if you are an ass, than you can expect to be
hassled and treated poorly. just like everywhere in the world. be kind
and you will be treated with kindness.

easy to type, maybe harder to follow.

d...

d wrote:

    > > Why go to France when you can go to Spain?. I'll never understand that. You get
    > > friendly people, great food, excellent service and nice weather. I dare anybody
    > > to find that complete package in France.
    > >
    > spain isn't paris. plain and simple. parisians are rude to everyone,
    > including each other. if you are an ass, than you can expect to be
    > hassled and treated poorly. just like everywhere in the world. be kind
    > and you will be treated with kindness.

I have been to Paris on three occasions. I did not find people to be rude, certainly
not the French. I found people to be extremely friendly.