Hatunen

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:51:08 +0100, "maladodo"
wrote:

    >hello
    >how did the war began ? Do you remember the germano-russian pact in august
    >1939, do you remember how you treated the polish ( katyn ) how you invaded
    >finland, you didn't have to cooperate with the german for the holocaust ,
    >you had your own pogroms .Don't remember that soviets moved a single finger
    >when the varsovian ghettho claims for help , while soviets where just on the
    >other side of the vistul river.Instead of russian sacrifice you'd better say
    >soviet because many of them were georgian belarus , mongolian etc.Ten
    >million personnel in the maginot line ?? in fact 500.000 .france had only 23
    >divisions and 800 planes ; 39 divisions and 2700 planes for the germans .Why
    >didn't england and france move to save poland , because they didn't expect
    >their ex allied russia to help the nazis and finish the "work".
    >dominique

He clearly said,

    >> I will not apologize for the actions of the Soviet Union - Stalin was
    >> aggressive, megalomaniacal, and evil. But I do not claim that Stalin
    >> was the defender of the free world [...]

So why are you bothering with this?

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Izzy

"Steve Leyland" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > izzy wrote:
    > : "Dr. Flonkenstein " wrote in message
    > : news:[email protected]...
    > :: On the immemorial day Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:27:51 GMT,
    > :: in an ultimate attempt to be funny
    > :: and witty at once, that summum of the evolution
    > :: of human race, "Jade" wrote:
    > ::
    > :::
    > ::: "Dr. Flonkenstein " wrote in message
    > ::: news:[email protected]...
    > :::: On the immemorial day Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:09:43 GMT,
    > :::: in an ultimate attempt to be funny
    > :::: and witty at once, that summum of the evolution
    > :::: of human race, "Jade" wrote:
    > ::::
    > :::::
    > ::::: "Mike Soja" wrote in message
    > ::::: news:[email protected]...
    > :::::: On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:03:44 -0800, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
    > :::::: posted:
    > ::::::
    > ::::::: Jade wrote:
    > ::::::
    > :::::::: Hatunen is a known troll. Please stop responding to him.
    > ::::::
    > ::::::: "Hatunen is a known troll"? "Known" to WHOM? He's been posting
    > : here
    > ::: a
    > ::::::: good deal longer than you have, missy, and generally has
interesting
    > ::::::: (and intelligent) things to say! (More than can be said for you -
a
    > ::::::: confessed troll.)
    > ::::::
    > :::::: Jade is one of those people, too stupid or otherwise mentally
    > :::::: challenged to carry on any kind of normal conversation, who thinks
it
    > :::::: the height of coolness to pretend to even greater stupidity than is
    > :::::: his/her/its natural state.
    > ::::::
    > :::::
    > ::::: Welcome to rec.travel.europe, Mike. No clams to talk to? You did not
    > : need
    > ::: to
    > ::::: come all the way here to flirt with me.
    > :::::
    > :::::: Also goes by deranged and uthor, and probably others.
    > :::::
    > ::::: You like to smell my socks.
    > ::::
    > :::: Did you know Mike has been k00k of the month July 2002 ?
    > ::::
    > :::: http://www.geocities.com/alc4troll/KOTM07.html
    > ::::
    > :::
    > ::: This was a most disturbing tale. He really wears that Colonel Klink
hat too,
    > ::: doesn't he?
    > :::
    > :: Jahwohl !
    > :
    > : No, Jade's on to something here. He's after our socks! Oh, my.
    > he'll netKKKop yer socks, yer stockings and yer pantyhose!

He can have my socks, I tos them after a couple of weeks anyway. But my
pantyhose? Never!

    > :
    > :
    > ::
    > :::::
    > ::::::
    > :::::: Mike
    > ::::::
    > :::::
    > ::::: Jade
    > ::::: --
    > ::::: Is Soja French?
    > :::: Yes, it means "turd".
    > :::::
    > :::::
    > ::::
    > :::: --
    > :::: Dr Flonkenstein
    > :::: Alcatroll Labs Inc. Flame, troll and
    > :::: antispaem bots
    > :::: development.
    > ::::
    > :::: mhm 27x12 MEOW MEOW ARMY
    > :::: ICQ 146303664 TNPJRL # -1
    > ::::
    > :::: http://www.geocities.com/alc4troll
    > ::::
    > :::: Highpriest of the
    > :::: Romath Religion
    > ::::
    > :::: Professor Kookology at
    > :::: BUNGMUNCH Univ.
    > ::::
    > :::: Flonk leader #19
    > :::: Wereldsman's hate lits #7
    > :::: Political Compass :Economic Left/Right: -3.25,
    > :::: Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.13
    > :::: ================================================== ==============
    > :::: Max Ernst (1972) The Four Shoes :
    > :::: http://www.si.umich.edu/Art_History/...1983_2.240.jpg
    > :::: ================================================== ==============
    > :::: [email protected] (Teem) loves to PKB in
    > :::: Message-ID: :
    > :::: "Idiot! If you were interested in a.b.c. you would have lurked long
    > :::: enough to realize that your unthinking juvenile hostility is the only
    > :::: unwelcome thing around here."
    > :::: ================================================== ==============
    > :::: rapist k00k "Bob" points out that rape
    > :::: is no crime, in article
    > :::: "Sex is a normal, pleasurable body function. Rape is
    > :::: normal pleasurable body function, even sometimes including
    > :::: orgasm, with a disagreement over who is to decide."
    > :::: ================================================== ==============
    > :::: woman beating k00k Mike Soja writes in article Message-ID:
    > :::: :
    > :::: ">I may not know much but I do know real men don't cascade!
    > :::: LOL."
    > ::::
    > :::
    > :::
    > :::
    > ::
    > :: --
    > :: Dr Flonkenstein
    > :: Alcatroll Labs Inc. Flame, troll and
    > :: antispaem bots
    > :: development.
    > ::
    > :: mhm 27x12 MEOW MEOW ARMY
    > :: ICQ 146303664 TNPJRL # -1
    > ::
    > :: http://www.geocities.com/alc4troll
    > ::
    > :: Highpriest of the
    > :: Romath Religion
    > ::
    > :: Professor Kookology at
    > :: BUNGMUNCH Univ.
    > ::
    > :: Flonk leader #19
    > :: Wereldsman's hate lits #7
    > :: Political Compass :Economic Left/Right: -3.25,
    > :: Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.13
    > :: ================================================== ==============
    > :: Max Ernst (1972) The Four Shoes :
    > :: http://www.si.umich.edu/Art_History/...1983_2.240.jpg
    > :: ================================================== ==============
    > :: [email protected] (Teem) loves to PKB in
    > :: Message-ID: :
    > :: "Idiot! If you were interested in a.b.c. you would have lurked long
    > :: enough to realize that your unthinking juvenile hostility is the only
    > :: unwelcome thing around here."
    > :: ================================================== ==============
    > :: rapist k00k "Bob" points out that rape
    > :: is no crime, in article
    > :: "Sex is a normal, pleasurable body function. Rape is
    > :: normal pleasurable body function, even sometimes including
    > :: orgasm, with a disagreement over who is to decide."
    > :: ================================================== ==============
    > :: woman beating k00k Mike Soja writes in article Message-ID:
    > :: :
    > :: ">I may not know much but I do know real men don't cascade!
    > :: LOL."
    > --
    > Steve Leyland
    > mhm32x16 Smeeter#35
    > flower: three 6 four 9 five 8 eight 9
    > =^/\/\E0\/\/ /\/\E0\/\/ ARMY^=
    > Time flies... after you hit the snooze button.
    > ================================================== ====================
    > "Warning to all:
    > Steve Leyland is a trolling twat of the highest order. Killfile the muppet
now
    > and move on. Even the briefest of searches on his past UseNet posts will
reveal
    > the truth. You have been warned. *plonk*"
    > Bastard Bear, uk.rec.motorcycles
    > ================================================== ====================
    > "It's a bigger shame that packs of idiots can't keep their profanities
    > and idiocies in groups where such is the norm, but instead have to go
    > crying for attention in groups that don't deal in heavy cross posting,
    > cascades, profanity, abject stupidity, and every other moronic thing
    > that Steve Leyland, Dean Humphries, and Eddie Bernard represent."
    > Mike Soja, alt.bad.clams

Alex Y. K.

As I said, I would never apologize for Stalin's actions - I feel shame
at much of what went on during the Soviet era. The statues of Stalin
were torn down - he is not worshipped. Russians remember the invasions
of Poland and Finland as being the treacherous deeds of their former
leaders. There is no pretention about this. The French, on the other
hand, pretend like they were heroes.
Now, it is true that many non-Russian Soviet citizens died, but that
does not change the casualty lists. In the near-Japan-sea region
alone, there is a memorial that lists the names of dead soldiers from
that area that completely dwarfs the Vietnam memorial.
Now, as for your assertions about the non-aggresion pact, you are very
clearly wrong. The reason that it 'stunned' the world was because the
British, Americans, and French were hoping that the Communists and
Nazis would destroy each other. You must remember that in the Western
Allied nations, Communism was much more detested than Fascism. Russia
was never their ally until later in the war; in fact, all three of
those countries had invaded Russia twenty years earlier. Nobody was
relying on an alliance with Russia. They were relying on Hitler's
hatred of Stalin.

"maladodo" wrote in message news:...
    > hello
    > how did the war began ? Do you remember the germano-russian pact in august
    > 1939, do you remember how you treated the polish ( katyn ) how you invaded
    > finland, you didn't have to cooperate with the german for the holocaust ,
    > you had your own pogroms .Don't remember that soviets moved a single finger
    > when the varsovian ghettho claims for help , while soviets where just on the
    > other side of the vistul river.Instead of russian sacrifice you'd better say
    > soviet because many of them were georgian belarus , mongolian etc.Ten
    > million personnel in the maginot line ?? in fact 500.000 .france had only 23
    > divisions and 800 planes ; 39 divisions and 2700 planes for the germans .Why
    > didn't england and france move to save poland , because they didn't expect
    > their ex allied russia to help the nazis and finish the "work".
    > dominique
    >
    > "Alex Y. K." a écrit dans le message news:
    > [email protected]...

Alex Y. K.

Oh, it turns out we are both wrong about the personnel in the French
army:
7 active motorized divisions
10 active infantry
17 active infantry from the 'A' (first) reserve
19 active infantry from the 'B' (second) reserve
5 cavalry divisions
3 mechanized
4 armoured
2 other alpine divisions
Which is significantly more than your assertion but much less than
mine. This was a respectable fighting force however - I think we can
agree on that.
"maladodo" wrote in message news:...
    > hello
    > how did the war began ? Do you remember the germano-russian pact in august
    > 1939, do you remember how you treated the polish ( katyn ) how you invaded
    > finland, you didn't have to cooperate with the german for the holocaust ,
    > you had your own pogroms .Don't remember that soviets moved a single finger
    > when the varsovian ghettho claims for help , while soviets where just on the
    > other side of the vistul river.Instead of russian sacrifice you'd better say
    > soviet because many of them were georgian belarus , mongolian etc.Ten
    > million personnel in the maginot line ?? in fact 500.000 .france had only 23
    > divisions and 800 planes ; 39 divisions and 2700 planes for the germans .Why
    > didn't england and france move to save poland , because they didn't expect
    > their ex allied russia to help the nazis and finish the "work".
    > dominique
    >
    > "

Go Fig

In article ,
[email protected] (Alex Y. K.) wrote:

    > Oh, it turns out we are both wrong about the personnel in the French
    > army:
    > 7 active motorized divisions
    > 10 active infantry
    > 17 active infantry from the 'A' (first) reserve
    > 19 active infantry from the 'B' (second) reserve
    > 5 cavalry divisions
    > 3 mechanized
    > 4 armoured
    > 2 other alpine divisions
    > Which is significantly more than your assertion but much less than
    > mine. This was a respectable fighting force however - I think we can
    > agree on that.

Except that they were being lead by a General with a hose and buggy
mentality.

jay
Mon, Dec 23, 2002
mailto:[email protected]



    > "maladodo" wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > hello
    > > how did the war began ? Do you remember the germano-russian pact in august
    > > 1939, do you remember how you treated the polish ( katyn ) how you invaded
    > > finland, you didn't have to cooperate with the german for the holocaust ,
    > > you had your own pogroms .Don't remember that soviets moved a single finger
    > > when the varsovian ghettho claims for help , while soviets where just on
    > > the
    > > other side of the vistul river.Instead of russian sacrifice you'd better
    > > say
    > > soviet because many of them were georgian belarus , mongolian etc.Ten
    > > million personnel in the maginot line ?? in fact 500.000 .france had only
    > > 23
    > > divisions and 800 planes ; 39 divisions and 2700 planes for the germans
    > > .Why
    > > didn't england and france move to save poland , because they didn't expect
    > > their ex allied russia to help the nazis and finish the "work".
    > > dominique
    > >
    > > "

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Magda

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:20:58 +0000, in rec.travel.europe, Marie Lewis
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... In article , maladodo
... writes
... >my christmas menu
... >huitres , saumon fumé , magret de canard , dinde chaponée aux haricots
... >blancs , fromages , buche de noel
...
...
... Sounds wonderful. Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année!

What I'll never understand is where people find room for all this, for they *don't* eat
only two or three "spoonfuls" of each. The two first items are quite enough for me - with
a few chocolates for dessert, of course. ;-)).

=======
Princess, having had sufficient experience with Princes, seeks Frog.

Maladodo

hello
just before the war (36 to 38 ) the government in france was the "front
populaire" with socialist and communist.. many socialist and communist did
participates with soviet partisan in the internationnal brigades which
helped the republicans in spain.Churchill and Roosevelt was known to be anti
soviet , but not the french.many groups of "resistance" during the
occupation were communist groups.The franco-russian friendship was a known
fact before and after the war.France was one of the western country to go in
moscow olympics in 1980 .Are there many stalingrad road in the us or in
england , in france i don't know a city without a stalingrad avenue or
boulevard.is there a stalingrad metro station in NY or London ? the
molotov-ribbentrop pact was a real surprise for the french .The number of
divisions I gave you was active divisions in september 39 , divisions with
really trained soldiers .the reserve divisions were 51 .The english had only
4 active divisions .it's with other things the reason why french and english
didn't have a direct fight with germans in sept 39.Other reasons was the
fact that many soldiers were sons of the ww1 soldiers and they didn't want
to be crushed when assaulting the gustav line.I didn't say russian was
allied but ex allied , they did fight with english french italian americans
in ww1
dominique

"Alex Y. K." a écrit dans le message news:
[email protected]...
    > As I said, I would never apologize for Stalin's actions - I feel shame
    > at much of what went on during the Soviet era. The statues of Stalin
    > were torn down - he is not worshipped. Russians remember the invasions
    > of Poland and Finland as being the treacherous deeds of their former
    > leaders. There is no pretention about this. The French, on the other
    > hand, pretend like they were heroes.
    > Now, it is true that many non-Russian Soviet citizens died, but that
    > does not change the casualty lists. In the near-Japan-sea region
    > alone, there is a memorial that lists the names of dead soldiers from
    > that area that completely dwarfs the Vietnam memorial.
    > Now, as for your assertions about the non-aggresion pact, you are very
    > clearly wrong. The reason that it 'stunned' the world was because the
    > British, Americans, and French were hoping that the Communists and
    > Nazis would destroy each other. You must remember that in the Western
    > Allied nations, Communism was much more detested than Fascism. Russia
    > was never their ally until later in the war; in fact, all three of
    > those countries had invaded Russia twenty years earlier. Nobody was
    > relying on an alliance with Russia. They were relying on Hitler's
    > hatred of Stalin.
    > "maladodo" wrote in message
news:...
    > > hello
    > > how did the war began ? Do you remember the germano-russian pact in
august
    > > 1939, do you remember how you treated the polish ( katyn ) how you
invaded
    > > finland, you didn't have to cooperate with the german for the holocaust
,
    > > you had your own pogroms .Don't remember that soviets moved a single
finger
    > > when the varsovian ghettho claims for help , while soviets where just on
the
    > > other side of the vistul river.Instead of russian sacrifice you'd better
say
    > > soviet because many of them were georgian belarus , mongolian etc.Ten
    > > million personnel in the maginot line ?? in fact 500.000 .france had
only 23
    > > divisions and 800 planes ; 39 divisions and 2700 planes for the germans
.Why
    > > didn't england and france move to save poland , because they didn't
expect
    > > their ex allied russia to help the nazis and finish the "work".
    > > dominique
    > >
    > > "Alex Y. K." a écrit dans le message news:
    > > [email protected]...

Erilar

In article , [email protected]
(Hatunen) wrote:
    > He clearly said,
    >
    > >> I will not apologize for the actions of the Soviet Union - Stalin was
    > >> aggressive, megalomaniacal, and evil. But I do not claim that Stalin
    > >> was the defender of the free world [...]
    >
    > So why are you bothering with this?
    >
If you can't refute the opponent's data, attack him for something else
8-)

--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)


Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

David Gascon

Hatunen wrote:
    >
    > He clearly said,
    >
    > >> I will not apologize for the actions of the Soviet Union - Stalin was
    > >> aggressive, megalomaniacal, and evil. But I do not claim that Stalin
    > >> was the defender of the free world [...]
    >
    > So why are you bothering with this?
    >

Just notint for the sake of clarity that "apologize for" seems to be
used here in the sense of "defend" rather than "admit to be at fault".

David Gascon

David Gascon wrote:
    >
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > hello
    > > chaponnée (sorry for the mystype) means castrated in the early age ,
    > > so a dinde chaponnée is a male adult turkey castrated in his early
    > > age.We say "une" because he has no more the things to be called "un".
    > > .the flesh is not dry after cooking as a female turkey can be.
    > > the other word is "un chapon"
    >
    > Yes, there is the English word "capon" that means the same thing,
    > usually referring to a (former) rooster subjected to the same treatment.
    >
    > By the way, isn't there a Robert Browning poem that refers to "the capon
    > priests"? Or is it from Ezra Pound?
    >

Not that a anyone else gives a damn, but this got into my head & I had
to track it down; clutter from university days.
Ezra Pound, "Ballad of the Goodly Fere":

No capon priest was the Goodly Fere
But a man o' men was he.


There, that's better.

Evelynvogtgamble

"Alex Y. K." wrote:
    >

    > Now, I already know two languages and quite a bit of French (I studied
    > it for several years). I can say much more than a few simple phrases.
    > My brother has studied it far more than I have, and while he is not
    > fluent, he can express many different things. However, many Parisians
    > he came in contact with refused to either speak English or spoke
    > French too fast - if they slowed down, they would have been
    > understood, but they didn't.

I really wonder about the people who post things like this - my French
is practically non-existent, yet I have encountered exceptional courtesy
and thoughtfulness as a foreign traveler to Paris. Not only have I had
people repeat their sentences more slowly, but also rephrase their
remarks, and patiently persist until they were sure I understood. I
seriously doubt whether it's a matter of "refusing" to speak English -
they simply may not KNOW our language. (Why should they? The language
of the country is French, not English.)

Last winter I was having a problem with my camera, and went into a
camera shop where no one spoke English. With sign language and a phrase
book, I managed to convey the fact that I could not get the film to
advance. The girl in the shop took my camera into the back of the shop,
where she could examine it, and established that the problem was simply
that the batteries were dead. She replaced the batteries, made sure
everything was functioning properly, and didn't even charge me for the
batteries! (So I bought a couple of rolls of film I didn't really need,
by way of "thank you", but she didn't try to sell me a thing!) I've
seldon encountered quite that sort of courtesy from tradespeople here at
home, but it seems to be the norm, in Paris.

Axqi Rqvst

The French have a curious attitude towards their language. It is not that
they are rude as some foreigners may think, but that they give it an
importance in areas where you may deem it irrelevant.

Some years ago my (then) nanny went to the French consular office with her
Philippine passport to get a visitor's visa. She was denied a visa. So I
went there, explaining that we had been living in Côte d'Ivoire and that I
was travelling to Paris on business and needed her to accompany me to take
care of the children. The consular officer told me that no, she'd have to
apply in Abidjan ... and when I said we weren't going back there, he said
she'd have to apply in Manila. I argued that this was ridiculous and then
suddenly his demeanour changed and he said that 'puisque vous parlez
Français, et uniquement à cause de cela, je vous donne le visa' -- i.e., he
was giving me (her, actually) the visa solely because I speak French.

P.S.: the nanny is now more than 12 years into her marriage to a Frenchman,
has 2 lovely French kids, and speaks perfect French herself now. And has
been naturalized French. (FWIW, which is nothing, she has one sister who is
now an Australian and another who is now British.)


On 24/12/02 05:27, in article [email protected],
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:

    >
    >
    > "Alex Y. K." wrote:
    >>
    >
    >> Now, I already know two languages and quite a bit of French (I studied
    >> it for several years). I can say much more than a few simple phrases.
    >> My brother has studied it far more than I have, and while he is not
    >> fluent, he can express many different things. However, many Parisians
    >> he came in contact with refused to either speak English or spoke
    >> French too fast - if they slowed down, they would have been
    >> understood, but they didn't.
    >
    > I really wonder about the people who post things like this - my French
    > is practically non-existent, yet I have encountered exceptional courtesy
    > and thoughtfulness as a foreign traveler to Paris. Not only have I had
    > people repeat their sentences more slowly, but also rephrase their
    > remarks, and patiently persist until they were sure I understood. I
    > seriously doubt whether it's a matter of "refusing" to speak English -
    > they simply may not KNOW our language. (Why should they? The language
    > of the country is French, not English.)

Evelynvogtgamble

Axqi Rqvst wrote:
    >
    > The French have a curious attitude towards their language. It is not that
    > they are rude as some foreigners may think, but that they give it an
    > importance in areas where you may deem it irrelevant.

Perhaps that's where we touch a common chord, the French and I! I've
always considered the precise use of words important (it's like a red
flag to me, when I hear an actor mis-read a line of Shakespeare). To
me, correct usage is NEVER irrelevant, and I don't in the least mind
being corrected when I say something incorrectly in another language.

Marie Lewis

In article ,
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" writes
    >Axqi Rqvst wrote:
    >> The French have a curious attitude towards their language. It is not that
    >> they are rude as some foreigners may think, but that they give it an
    >> importance in areas where you may deem it irrelevant.
    >Perhaps that's where we touch a common chord, the French and I! I've
    >always considered the precise use of words important (it's like a red
    >flag to me, when I hear an actor mis-read a line of Shakespeare). To
    >me, correct usage is NEVER irrelevant, and I don't in the least mind
    >being corrected when I say something incorrectly in another language.


Hear, hear!

And, may I add, on the occasion I (automatically for I have spent my
life teaching French) corrected a French person on incorrect usage of
his own language (blush) the French person was extremely gracious and
said that I was perfectly correct to do so.
--
Marie Lewis