Earl Evleth

dans l'article [email protected], Forrest Ã
[email protected] a écrit le 14/12/02 18:14 :

    > Earl, are you sure you posted to the right thread? You have posted sense.
    >
    > Michael Forrest


Having fun, I don't venture over on this group much anymore, to Donna`s
dismay. I fight the internet wars on other newsgroups.

Earl

Icono Clast

[email protected] (jay) wrote:
    > a free society must allow 'Cross Burning' and Flag desecration as part
    > of the RIGHT to Free Speech... but the public should also shun them at
    > every opportunity.

Bravo! You're absolutely correct, Jay. For the record, it's the Skokie
decision that caused me to finally join the American Civil Liberties
Union.

I'm looking forward to a correct decision on the cross burning case
the Supreme Court heard recently. Unfortunately, the law in question
complicates the matter.

Yes, we've gone a bit off topic but one of the most important
contributions UseNet makes to the planet is the evidence that we, the
fortunate citizens of the USA, truly do not fear to speak against our
politicians, system, and public figures.

In ICQ correspondence with others around the planet, I've been told "I
can't talk about that" regarding numerous subjects in answer to
questions that I've asked. Can you imagine a citizen of the USA saying
something like that?!?
__________________________________________________ ___________
A San Franciscan in 47.335 mile2 San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Icono Clast

[email protected] (Pan) wrote:
    > >"Nice day, isn't it"
    > >
    > >The New Yorker responds:
    > >
    > >"What are you, some kind of wise-guy"?
    >
    > As a New Yorker, I immediately laughed at that. :-)

I'm not a New Yorker but the exchange elicited a guffaw. (And I'm still chuck'ling.)

    > I can imagine exactly the tone of voice the elevator man used and what
    > expression he made.

Can't we all? I can even mimic it!
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Sjoerd

"Icono Clast" schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (jay) wrote:
    > > a free society must allow 'Cross Burning' and Flag desecration as part
    > > of the RIGHT to Free Speech... but the public should also shun them at
    > > every opportunity.
    > Bravo! You're absolutely correct, Jay. For the record, it's the Skokie
    > decision that caused me to finally join the American Civil Liberties
    > Union.
    > I'm looking forward to a correct decision on the cross burning case
    > the Supreme Court heard recently. Unfortunately, the law in question
    > complicates the matter.
    > Yes, we've gone a bit off topic but one of the most important
    > contributions UseNet makes to the planet is the evidence that we, the
    > fortunate citizens of the USA, truly do not fear to speak against our
    > politicians, system, and public figures.
    > In ICQ correspondence with others around the planet, I've been told "I
    > can't talk about that" regarding numerous subjects in answer to
    > questions that I've asked. Can you imagine a citizen of the USA saying
    > something like that?!?

O yes. I have had on-line chats with US citizens who had been to Amsterdam,
they refused to answer my question if they had been to a coffeeshop.

Sjoerd

Sjoerd

"gary" schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
    > "Sjoerd" wrote in message
news:...
    > > "Hatunen" schreef in bericht
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:48:37 +0100, "Sjoerd"
    > > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >"Jade" schreef in bericht
    > > > >news:[email protected]...
    > > > >> Last summer I traveled for two days to Paris and had the worst time
of
    > > my
    > > > >> life due to the rudeness of the people there.
    > > > >
    > > > >Not my opinion, but it seems that some people in the Paris tourist
board
    > > > >agree.
    > > > >
    > > > >From:
    > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >But those cities have a natural advantage, said Remi Calmon, a
spokesman
    > > for
    > > > >France's 600-member National Union of Gay Businesses.
    > > > >
    > > > >"The French are not always -- how shall I say this -- the nicest
people,"
    > > > >said Calmon, whose group is part of Paris' gay-friendly planning
    > > committee.
    > > > >"It's one thing to bring tourists here, but when they arrive you
can't
    > > take
    > > > >an attitude with them."
    > > >
    > > > Are you suggesting Jade is gay?
    > >
    > > No, why do you believe I am?
    > >
    > > Sjoerd
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
    > I was in Amsterdam a few weeks ago and a Dutch friend took me to the
    > Amstel Taverne. When we arrived there was some sort of commotion
    > going on. As we entered we were confronted by a sight I wont soon
    > forget. A pleasant looking man was dancing from table top to table
    > top shouting at the top of his voice "My posts to rec.europe.travel
    > are the best. The very best. I am the King of the Posters. Nobody
    > beats me". My friend said "Oh no. Not him again. He comes in every
    > Saturday night and does this. We feed him beer to calm him down".
    > I don't know who the man was.
    > Gary

Well, I haven't met this guy yet, but I must admit that I don't go to Amstel
Taveerne very often these days. :-))

Sjoerd

Marie Lewis

In article , Earl Evleth
writes
    >Having fun, I don't venture over on this group much anymore, to Donna`s
    >dismay. I fight the internet wars on other newsgroups.
    >Earl

Please come back: we miss you.

Marie
--
Marie Lewis

Greg Byshenk

Joe Janecka wrote:

    > Isn't this something? You share your experiences from a recent trip to
    > France and what happens? You had some bad experiences in France, but
    > it was obviously all your fault! You get the typical clap-trap of
    > always blaming the victim.

Unfortunately, it is difficult for me to conclude anything else (and I
suspect that such is true for many readers).

I have travelled to some number of cities and countries, and have
_never_ experienced any kind of _general_ rudeness or other improper
behaviour. Of course there are unpleasant people everywhere, but
they seem to be a fairly small minority everywhere. Thus, if someone
reports experiences about some city or country that are so
unrelentingly awful that they recommend that such place be avoided,
my immediate suspicion is that there is something strange going on
with the person reporting the experiences. And if the report is of
a place with which I happen to be familiar, and about which I know
that the population is generally at least polite if not actually
pleasant, then I cannot draw any conclusion other than that there is
something strange going on with the person reporting the experiences.


    > Throw a dog a bone and he will chew on it all day, just like the news
    > media and this news group. At least 50 people here, who obviously
    > haven't even met you, have been psychoanalyzing you for days. Wow,
    > that's impressive. Such experts of the French society.

    > Anybody here got any original thoughts? I'm tired of the same old
    > "learn a few words of French" and "speak to the proprietor first" and
    > "say bon jour, parlez-vous anglais", etc. Come on folks, how many
    > times do you have to repeat it. Once again, you sound like our news
    > media, repeating the same stuff over and over.

As for your question, I'm not sure how many times it needs to be
repeated. I do know that some number of people seem not yet to
have understood, so perhaps it bears continued repetition.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

Greg Byshenk

David Gascon wrote:
    > Danielle wrote:

    > > I SERIOUSLY THINK JADE IS JOKING TO GET US GOING, HOW CAN ANYONE POSSIBLY
    > > BELIEVE THIS TALE OF WOE!

    > Yep, she actually admits it elsewhere in this thread: "YHBT".

But in answer to the question: because some of us have run into people
who think in just that way.

I often used to think: "no one can be _that_ stupid!" But now that
I have more experience, I have come to realize that, no matter _how_
unbelieveably stupid something seems, yes, someone can indeed be that
stupid.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

Andy

"greg byshenk" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > David Gascon wrote:
    > > Danielle wrote:
    > > > I SERIOUSLY THINK JADE IS JOKING TO GET US GOING, HOW CAN ANYONE
POSSIBLY
    > > > BELIEVE THIS TALE OF WOE!
    > > Yep, she actually admits it elsewhere in this thread: "YHBT".
    > But in answer to the question: because some of us have run into people
    > who think in just that way.
    > I often used to think: "no one can be _that_ stupid!" But now that
    > I have more experience, I have come to realize that, no matter _how_
    > unbelieveably stupid something seems, yes, someone can indeed be that
    > stupid.

It isn't just Jade that tars all French with the same brush, it is a common
stereotype. Rather than blow steam out of your ears, accept the fact that
the stereotype is there for a reason. It might be because most tourists
choose Paris as a destination rather than the more chilled and friendly
country dwellers.

Jx Bardant

    > I actually observed several guys, French-speakers, in shorts & tank tops
    > at lunch at Le Petit Picard a few years ago, & nobody gave them a second
    > glance. Apparently the Marais has its own dress code.

Definitely The Marais is the gay part of town...

nkosi278

"Excusez-moi, s'il vous plait, de vous deranger, mais
- je ne parle pas francais ...or
- j'ai un petit problem...or
and
- wearing appropriate CLOTHES in Paris (suit/tie in my bistro, please)
- not raising your voice(s) in a restaurant
- NEVER, EVER wearing SNEAKERS, and......
lastly
- NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS WEARING A BASEBALL CAP !!!!!!!!

nkosi and nkosi-kazi

p.s. one Christmas in Paris I gave our bistro "maitre d'" a 200 FF tip for all his courtesy and friendliness to our family and friends down the years!!
p.p.s another time my wife and I went back to a restaurant to see the owner and thank him for his waiter's courtesy - he loved it !!

Icono Clast

"Sjoerd" wrote:
    > > In ICQ correspondence with others around the planet, I've been told "I
    > > can't talk about that" regarding numerous subjects in answer to
    > > questions that I've asked. Can you imagine a citizen of the USA saying
    > > something like that?!?
    >
    > O yes. I have had on-line chats with US citizens who had been to Amsterdam,
    > they refused to answer my question if they had been to a coffeeshop.

Perhaps they were at work, Sjoerd, using the boss's computer and in
fear of a urine test.

Perhaps they were at home and too stoned to know the answer.
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Lawrence

It was easier to communicate speaking English to those French people who
knew English but not Italian.

    > I never studied italian or spanish but i
    > understand 99 % of what they say.

That's a lot. I'd say I genrally understood 60%. 15% when they spoke fast.

Loz


"maladodo" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > hello
    > you are italian , and when you came to france , you spoke english ??? do
you
    > remember that julius caesar invaded gauls 50 bc and for that time we in
    > france spoke a latin language.I never studied italian or spanish but i
    > understand 99 % of what they say.
    > dominique
    > "Lawrence" a écrit dans le message news:
    > [email protected]...
    > > Gosh, your answer is a little bit harsh!
    > >
    > > I spent a month in France in March and generally found them quite rude
to
    > me
    > > when I spoke English to them, a little less rude when I spoke Italian to
    > > them and amused when I spoke my basic French to them.
    > >
    > > Here in Italy I find Italians often rude. Especially shopkeepers when
you
    > > don't have change and hand over a 50 Euro note to by a cheap item. And
I'm
    > > an Italian.
    > >
    > > Loz
    > >
    > > --
    > > www · http://www.cityfacts.it
    > >
    > > "wessie" wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > "Jade" wrote in
    > > > news:[email protected]:
    > > >
    > > > > Last summer I traveled for two days to Paris and had the worst time
of
    > > > > my life due to the rudeness of the people there. I believe they
    > > > > specifically hated Americans, because I saw them being perfectly
    > > > > hospitable toward the British and the Germans I ran into.
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > Wake up.
    > > >
    > > > If a Frenchman came to Idaho, walked into Burger King and spoke only
    > > French
    > > > do you think he would be treated with respect?
    > > >
    > > > No
    > > >
    > > > You are very naive, or extremely arrogant, if you think that wherever
    > you
    > > > go you will find English speakers.
    > > >
    > > > Perhaps if you took the trouble to learn just a few phrases of French
    > then
    > > > you would be treated with respect.
    > > >
    > > > I speak a little French and can get by with non English speakers. The
    > > > French people that speak English usually stop me from embarrasing
myself
    > > by
    > > > laughing a little and then continuing the conversation in English.
    > > >
    > > > As for the mugging. Any city in the world is a dangerous place if you
go
    > > > out at night. Again, you show a level of naivity here. The authorities
    > did
    > > > not think that you were stupid because you were American. Just stupid
    > > > period.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > [email protected]
    > > >
    > > > BMW R1150GS
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >

Evelynvogtgamble

Marie Lewis wrote:
    >
    > In article ,
    > "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" writes
    > >That makes sense - academic grades are based mostly upon the
    > >"correctness" of your paperwork, not necessarily fluency of vocabulary
    > >or whether your accent is good enough so native-speakers will understand
    > >you.
    >
    > This is certainly *not* the case in the UK. The exams tend to be
    > equally weighted: speaking, reading, writing and listening get each one
    > quarter of the marks.

I'm sure you're right - but then "education" in America never HAS been
on a par with that in the UK - not in our public schools in many areas
of the country, anyway. Heck, when I took Spanish in my Minnesota high
school, we were seldom required to speak a word - and since our teacher
was French (Breton, actually) with a thick French accent, I suspect what
we WERE taught bore little resemblance to a Spaniard's pronunciation, to
begin with.

    >
    > As now languages are (or are supposed to be) taught entirely in the
    > target language, speaking and understanding come first.
    >
    > I write this as an examiner of GCSE and A Level French.
    > --
    > Marie Lewis

Evelynvogtgamble

Andy wrote:
    >
    > It isn't just Jade that tars all French with the same brush, it is a common
    > stereotype. Rather than blow steam out of your ears, accept the fact that
    > the stereotype is there for a reason. It might be because most tourists
    > choose Paris as a destination rather than the more chilled and friendly
    > country dwellers.

So? It would seem, both from things posted here and my own experiences,
that many of us do NOT consider Parisians particularly rude! Certainly
not when treated with courtesy by the tourists who approach them. (And
why should anyone expect courteous treatment from people they themselves
are rude to?)