On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:32:48 +0100, B Vaughan<[email protected]>
wrote:

    >The problem with Ryanair is that in order to lock in those low fares,
    >you have to reserve well in advance. Take a look at what it would cost
    >to fly tomorrow with Ryanair and you'll see what I mean.

One should also be careful to find out exactly where the airport
is that Ryanair is using. Many of their fields are old military
airports or small city municipal fields somewhat distant from the
nominal target city, and with minimal facilities and not always
with good transport. For instance, anyone flying into Stockholm
(Skavsta) thinking it is convenient to Stockholm is in for a rude
surprise.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Martin wrote:

    > How many people here carry Ian Allen publications with them?

Don't know. I usually keep them at home.

... Martin

Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    > On 2006-02-23, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> But then, I particularly like old trams, and Milan does have a lot of these
    >> (providing a nice way of exploring the city).
    >
    > But where you're supposed to pay for the trip is a mystery.

As in almost all Italian cities, you buy a ticket at a cigarette kiosk (or
at a ticket office, or from a metro ticket machine) and validate it on the
tram. Not much of a mystery.

... Martin

On 2006-02-24, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    >> On 2006-02-23, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> But then, I particularly like old trams, and Milan does have a lot of these
    >>> (providing a nice way of exploring the city).
    >>
    >> But where you're supposed to pay for the trip is a mystery.
    > As in almost all Italian cities, you buy a ticket at a cigarette kiosk (or
    > at a ticket office, or from a metro ticket machine) and validate it on the
    > tram. Not much of a mystery.

It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
stop or on the vehicle.

On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On 2006-02-24, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    >>> On 2006-02-23, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> But then, I particularly like old trams, and Milan does have a lot of these
    >>>> (providing a nice way of exploring the city).
    >>>
    >>> But where you're supposed to pay for the trip is a mystery.
    >> As in almost all Italian cities, you buy a ticket at a cigarette kiosk (or
    >> at a ticket office, or from a metro ticket machine) and validate it on the
    >> tram. Not much of a mystery.
    >It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
    >have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
    >stop or on the vehicle.

Quite a bit of London now...

Jim.

Jim Ley wrote:
    > On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On 2006-02-24, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    >>>> On 2006-02-23, Martin Bienwald <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>> But then, I particularly like old trams, and Milan does have a
    >>>>> lot of these (providing a nice way of exploring the city).
    >>>> But where you're supposed to pay for the trip is a mystery.
    >>> As in almost all Italian cities, you buy a ticket at a cigarette
    >>> kiosk (or at a ticket office, or from a metro ticket machine) and
    >>> validate it on the tram. Not much of a mystery.
    >> It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket.
    >> Nowhere else have I seen a public transport system where you can't
    >> buy a ticket at the
    >> stop or on the vehicle.
    > Quite a bit of London now...

Eh? If you're referring to buses in London, in the central area where
you can't buy a ticket on the bus, there is a ticket machine at every
bus stop.
--
Richard J.
www.stayparis.net

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 02:43:00 GMT, "Richard J." <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Jim Ley wrote:
    >> Quite a bit of London now...
    >Eh? If you're referring to buses in London, in the central area where
    >you can't buy a ticket on the bus, there is a ticket machine at every
    >bus stop.

Unless they've installed a lot of machines recently (which would be a
crazy waste of money they could've spent on reducing fares etc.) then
the stops with payment facilities are not every stop, just every stop
not near enough to a place with payment abilities.

Jim.

On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
    >have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
    >stop or on the vehicle.

Helsinki.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen <[email protected]> writes:

    > On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
    > >have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
    > >stop or on the vehicle.
    >
    > Helsinki.

I'll see your Helsinki and raise you an Italian peninsular.

Des

"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestissä:2dtt129eo8pptstftv1m3r85iraft690cg@4ax. com...
    > On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
    >>have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
    >>stop or on the vehicle.
    > Helsinki.
You have metro stations in mind? Drivers in trams sell tickets.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:25:32 +0200, "Markku Grönroos"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
    >viestissä:2dtt129eo8pptstftv1m3r85iraft690cg@4ax .com...
    >> On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
    >>>have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
    >>>stop or on the vehicle.
    >> Helsinki.
    >You have metro stations in mind? Drivers in trams sell tickets.
I thought they phased that out with tbe new Oyster type tickets.
Otherwise I stand corrected.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestissä:v1t02290h12qs0604amhonvt33svpmd0cv@4ax. com...
    > On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:25:32 +0200, "Markku Grönroos"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
    >>viestissä:2dtt129eo8pptstftv1m3r85iraft690cg@4a x.com...
    >>> On 19 Mar 2006 22:00:24 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere
    >>>>else
    >>>>have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at
    >>>>the
    >>>>stop or on the vehicle.
    >>> Helsinki.
    >>You have metro stations in mind? Drivers in trams sell tickets.
    > I thought they phased that out with tbe new Oyster type tickets.
    > Otherwise I stand corrected.
Drivers still sell (at least) single journey tickets.

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

    > >>> But then, I particularly like old trams, and Milan does have a lot
    > >>> of these (providing a nice way of exploring the city).

Glad you like the 1928 "carrelli" trams, although not many lines use
them nowadays.

    > >> But where you're supposed to pay for the trip is a mystery.
    > >
    > > As in almost all Italian cities, you buy a ticket at a cigarette kiosk (or
    > > at a ticket office, or from a metro ticket machine) and validate it on the
    > > tram. Not much of a mystery.

There are no such things as "cigarette kiosks" in Italy, the kiosks you
refer to are newsagents. Tickets are also sold at tobacconists, but
these are usually located in coffee bars. Every metro station has a
newsagent shop which sells newspaper and tickets. Vending machines are
not much used for a variety of reasons.

Selling tickets onboard in Milan (by a conductor) was abolished in 1970
to save on staff. For some reasons (I suppose mainly related to trade
union affairs) drivers do not sell tickets. They do not even press a key
to activate loudspeaker stop announcements !

Anyhow you can even buy tram tickets in advance on Internet (have a
look at the www.atm-mi.it web site) :-)

    > It is when you're standing at the tram stop without a ticket. Nowhere else
    > have I seen a public transport system where you can't buy a ticket at the
    > stop or on the vehicle.

I would say this is the standard way almost everywhere in Italy.

In Milan on the old (large, non electronic) bus stops there was usually
a notice with the location of the closest ticket resellers (if not
vandalized). Not sure of the new small signposts (those with an
electronic display). It is very easy to find a reseller within walking
distance from any stop in Milan, at least in those parts you are likely
to go (and provided it is not a Sunday afternoon or August, when
newsagents and tobacconists may be closed).

The "standard" way for a tourist or occasional traveller would be to buy
a day pass, or a "carnet" of 10 tickets.

Otherwise you can always ask other passengers to sell you a ticket.

As a last resort, play the portuguese :-)

I agree that the unavailability of tickets onboard or at "stations" can
be a pain, but much more in the country or on railways than in a city
where there is always a reseller within a few hundred meters.

It is quite a pain instead to go for a walk in the country or the
mountains, and come down to a bus stop in the middle of nowhere, with
the closest reseller at a few km. Or to go for a walk along a canal not
knowing whether you will be arriving at A or B (so you do not buy the
train return ticket in advance), and when in B you discover the train
station is unmanned, the reseller is closed, and you'd have to pay a
surcharge to buy the ticket on the train (in the past, arguing with the
conductor could result in waiving the surcharge).

This business of the surcharge, and other fare amenities, are not a good
way to encourage tourism with public transport.

In Lombardy on country buses in principle it is possible to get tickets
onboard with a surcharge which is more of the order of a fine (I guess 5
euro or more).

In Ligury tickets are sold by the driver on "inland" buses, but for the
coastal routes there is a different surcharge system. If you buy the
ticket at a tobacconist for instance one zone is 0.90 euro, two zones
1.20 euro and so on. You can buy tickets at a "prezzo maggiorato"
onboard from the driver, and with counted money, but this goes in steps
of 1.50 euro, and according to kilometers, not zones. So for instance
Alassio-Laigueglia (1 zone 0.90 euro) and Andora-Laigueglia (2 zones
1.20 euro) are both 1.50 euro when bought onboard.

Also the business of unmanned stations discourages people to use the
train for local transport (trains are faster than buses specially on
inter-province stretches). You have to get the ticket in advance at a
reseller, and not all bus ticket resellers sell train tickets.

And in some cases even travel agents do not sell all train tickets,
which is absurd.

I just went to Laigueglia from Milan as I do almost every year. This is
a small unmanned station served only by local trains, close to Alassio
which was served by interregional and intercity trains. Anyhow, when
travelling with luggage, it is much more convenient to catch a direct
train from Milan to Alassio and get a train connection there at the same
platform, then going downstairs, outside and walk a few 100 m to catch a
bus.

This year they've abolished all interregional trains and replaced them
with IC plus with compulsory reservation (which means they take the same
time and cost about twice). In the past you got a through ticket
Milan-Laigueglia and an optional IC surcharge Milan-Alassio (if you
travelled by IC) and an optionally optional reservation if you really
wanted to reserve (unnecessary except in peak times).

Now you get an IC ticket with reservation Milan-Alassio, and a separate
1 euro ticket Alassio-Laigueglia (the former requires no validation
since it is for a fixed train, the latter requires validation).

On the way back the travel agent in Laigueglia is not entitled to issue
IC tickets or make reservations (it has only a ticket machine, no
terminal), so you have to go to Alassio station in advance to book (and
you still get two tickets as for the way in).

--
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