i just saw this and thought why did i have to go to see this at the
cinema? its sort of TV material...war documentary...uncensored
civilian & military wounded & cadavres...uncut interviews of troops on
the field...then I realized why... they never aired this sort of stuff
on TV before. in some parts its hard to fight the tears.

Sam

On 2004-09-25 16:03, Sam wrote:
    > i just saw this and thought why did i have to go to see this at the
    > cinema? its sort of TV material...war documentary...uncensored
    > civilian & military wounded & cadavres...uncut interviews of troops on
    > the field...then I realized why... they never aired this sort of stuff
    > on TV before. in some parts its hard to fight the tears.
    >
    > Sam

More factual is:
http://www.fahrenhype911.com/

Jim

unknown <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<W3n5d.112562$yh.23046@fed1read05>...
    > On 2004-09-25 16:03, Sam wrote:
    > > i just saw this and thought why did i have to go to see this at the
    > > cinema? its sort of TV material...war documentary...uncensored
    > > civilian & military wounded & cadavres...uncut interviews of troops on
    > > the field...then I realized why... they never aired this sort of stuff
    > > on TV before. in some parts its hard to fight the tears.
    > >
    > > Sam
    >
    > More factual is:
    > http://www.fahrenhype911.com/

I watched it a couple of nights ago, and must confess to nearly
wetting myself laughing at some points. His choice of songs are bloody
hilarious!!! It is very entertaining, and has a number of truly
chilling moments too. Now there has been a spate of anti-Moore films
that have come out, but from observations they all seems to attack the
man, and NOT what he is actually saying.

Now I do not agree with every one of Michaels conclusions, but I would
much prefer to hear the critics attack his probing accusations,
instead of just trying to discredit him. Heck, I don't really want to
believe that all he says in 9/11 is true, but what he says makes a lot
more sense than the bullshit we have heard from the administration.

So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
out of the country straight after 9/11? And why is it that Osama has
been all but forgotten? Surely that is sending a clear signal that
terrorists can get away with murder. And why don't the members of
congress send THEIR kids to war? (ok, that one's easy). And the WMD
lies, questionable voting interference, publicity stunts, irrational
fear campaign, blah, blah, blah...

Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
years of this. Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
clear.
---
DFM

In article <[email protected]> , Deep
Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote:

    > unknown <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<W3n5d.112562$yh.23046@fed1read05>...
    > > On 2004-09-25 16:03, Sam wrote:
    > > > i just saw this and thought why did i have to go to see this at the
    > > > cinema? its sort of TV material...war documentary...uncensored
    > > > civilian & military wounded & cadavres...uncut interviews of troops on
    > > > the field...then I realized why... they never aired this sort of stuff
    > > > on TV before. in some parts its hard to fight the tears.
    > > >
    > > > Sam
    > >
    > > More factual is:
    > > http://www.fahrenhype911.com/
    >
    > I watched it a couple of nights ago, and must confess to nearly
    > wetting myself laughing at some points. His choice of songs are bloody
    > hilarious!!! It is very entertaining, and has a number of truly
    > chilling moments too. Now there has been a spate of anti-Moore films
    > that have come out, but from observations they all seems to attack the
    > man, and NOT what he is actually saying.
    >
    > Now I do not agree with every one of Michaels conclusions, but I would
    > much prefer to hear the critics attack his probing accusations,
    > instead of just trying to discredit him. Heck, I don't really want to
    > believe that all he says in 9/11 is true, but what he says makes a lot
    > more sense than the bullshit we have heard from the administration.
    >
    > So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
    > out of the country straight after 9/11?


Cause they weren't. It is very clear when they left from the official
911 report. Strange too, cause Richard Clark is interviewed for the
'drama', but not on this subject. Richard Clark signed off on the
Saudis leaving the U.S., days after the airspace was open to all.



    > And why is it that Osama has
    > been all but forgotten? Surely that is sending a clear signal that
    > terrorists can get away with murder.

At some point, the U.S. may need to violate Pakistan sovereignty to get
him.

    > And why don't the members of
    > congress send THEIR kids to war? (ok, that one's easy).

No one is 'sent' to war, they are ALL volunteers.

    > And the WMD
    > lies, questionable voting interference, publicity stunts, irrational
    > fear campaign, blah, blah, blah...

Yup, blah... blah... blah.

jay
Sun Sep 26, 2004
mailto:[email protected]


    >
    > Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
    > years of this. Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
    > clear.
    > ---
    > DFM

Obeying those funny little voices, [email protected] (Deep
Frayed Morgues) wrote:

    >So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
    >out of the country straight after 9/11?

Because they weren't?

Free clue: if Michael Moore tells you the sun rises in the east, you
should get up at 5 a.m. to check. It may be true and it may not.

    >And why is it that Osama has
    >been all but forgotten?

Because he hasn't? A full-fledged hunt for OBL would involve
trampling on Pakistani sovereignty (since I think the Pakistanis lack
both the will and capability to find OBL). That would give "old
Europe" yet another excuse to hate us.

    >And why don't the members of
    >congress send THEIR kids to war? (ok, that one's easy).

Same as it ever was -- all those years ago, GWB himself managed to get
himself out of from Vietnam.

    >And the WMD
    >lies, questionable voting interference, publicity stunts, irrational
    >fear campaign, blah, blah, blah...

Nobody, but nobody, ever gave a damn whether Saddam had WMDs. It's
yet another mark of Bush's incompetence that he cast his argument in
terms of the WMD issue.

    >Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
    >years of this. Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
    >clear.

I'm afraid the Democrats will once again display their talent for
snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

My New Year's resolution was not to respond to political threads.
Forgive me for I have sinned.


--
Cases heard in U.S. civil and criminal courts as posted on the
American Bar Association's online magazine:
* Schmuck v. Dumm
* Gerald Mayo v. Satan and His Staff
* State v. Big Hair
* United States of America v. 2,116 Boxes of Boned
Beef, Weighing Approx. 154,121 Pounds, and 541 Boxes
of Offal, Weighing Approximately 17,732 pounds

As a Brit I've met many people from the USA over the last couple of years
and every single one without exception has apologised about both being
American and voting in Bush as president at the very start of any
conversation. It is now looking likely that the same thing will happen all
over again. You get the president you deserve, I guess!
"Go Fig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:260920040911377540%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]> , Deep
    > Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> unknown <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:<W3n5d.112562$yh.23046@fed1read05>...
    >> > On 2004-09-25 16:03, Sam wrote:
    >> > > i just saw this and thought why did i have to go to see this at the
    >> > > cinema? its sort of TV material...war documentary...uncensored
    >> > > civilian & military wounded & cadavres...uncut interviews of troops
    >> > > on
    >> > > the field...then I realized why... they never aired this sort of
    >> > > stuff
    >> > > on TV before. in some parts its hard to fight the tears.
    >> > >
    >> > > Sam
    >> >
    >> > More factual is:
    >> > http://www.fahrenhype911.com/
    >> I watched it a couple of nights ago, and must confess to nearly
    >> wetting myself laughing at some points. His choice of songs are bloody
    >> hilarious!!! It is very entertaining, and has a number of truly
    >> chilling moments too. Now there has been a spate of anti-Moore films
    >> that have come out, but from observations they all seems to attack the
    >> man, and NOT what he is actually saying.
    >> Now I do not agree with every one of Michaels conclusions, but I would
    >> much prefer to hear the critics attack his probing accusations,
    >> instead of just trying to discredit him. Heck, I don't really want to
    >> believe that all he says in 9/11 is true, but what he says makes a lot
    >> more sense than the bullshit we have heard from the administration.
    >> So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
    >> out of the country straight after 9/11?
    > Cause they weren't. It is very clear when they left from the official
    > 911 report. Strange too, cause Richard Clark is interviewed for the
    > 'drama', but not on this subject. Richard Clark signed off on the
    > Saudis leaving the U.S., days after the airspace was open to all.
    >> And why is it that Osama has
    >> been all but forgotten? Surely that is sending a clear signal that
    >> terrorists can get away with murder.
    > At some point, the U.S. may need to violate Pakistan sovereignty to get
    > him.
    >> And why don't the members of
    >> congress send THEIR kids to war? (ok, that one's easy).
    > No one is 'sent' to war, they are ALL volunteers.
    >> And the WMD
    >> lies, questionable voting interference, publicity stunts, irrational
    >> fear campaign, blah, blah, blah...
    > Yup, blah... blah... blah.
    > jay
    > Sun Sep 26, 2004
    > mailto:[email protected]
    >> Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
    >> years of this. Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
    >> clear.
    >> ---
    >> DFM

ash <[email protected]> wrote:
    > As a Brit I've met many people from the USA over the last couple of years
    > and every single one without exception has apologised about both being
    > American and voting in Bush as president at the very start of any
    > conversation.

I assume this is because you haven't spent time in the USA. The farther you
get (in sociogeographical terms; leave Mexico out of this) from Texas the
more likely the Americans you meet are the type who (A) aren't afraid of the
rest of the world just because it's different, and (B) recognize that this
is a big difference between them and George Bush.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 31 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Sam wrote:

    > i just saw this and thought why did i have to go to see this at the
    > cinema? its sort of TV material...war documentary...uncensored
    > civilian & military wounded & cadavres...uncut interviews of troops on
    > the field...then I realized why... they never aired this sort of stuff
    > on TV before. in some parts its hard to fight the tears.

They CERTAINLY never, in the U.S., aired the bits about
Bush's 2001 inaugural parade being "egged"! (And that was
BEFORE his illegal invasion of Iraq.)

Deep Frayed Morgues wrote:


    >
    > I watched it a couple of nights ago, and must confess to nearly
    > wetting myself laughing at some points. His choice of songs are bloody
    > hilarious!!! It is very entertaining, and has a number of truly
    > chilling moments too. Now there has been a spate of anti-Moore films
    > that have come out, but from observations they all seems to attack the
    > man, and NOT what he is actually saying.

Probably because it's easy to make ad hominum attacks, but
more difficult to refute the truth?

    >
    > Now I do not agree with every one of Michaels conclusions, but I would
    > much prefer to hear the critics attack his probing accusations,
    > instead of just trying to discredit him. Heck, I don't really want to
    > believe that all he says in 9/11 is true, but what he says makes a lot
    > more sense than the bullshit we have heard from the administration.

I "don't want to believe" a great deal that seems to be
going on in the U.S., unopposed, these days! Unfortunately
too many people turn a blind eye, and suffer from truncated
memory function - if it happened more than a couple of days
ago they don't remember, so accept whatever lies they are
told, instead.

    >
    > Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
    > years of this.

Alas, if the polls are to be believed, you're probably right.

    > Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
    > clear.

And harder to combat. Too many people think "It can't
happen here" - overlooking the fact that 1930's Germany had
a constitution, too, and that although Hitler was originally
elected to office, it was NOT as dictator with supreme
authority!

ash wrote:

    > As a Brit I've met many people from the USA over the last couple of years
    > and every single one without exception has apologised about both being
    > American and voting in Bush as president at the very start of any
    > conversation. It is now looking likely that the same thing will happen all
    > over again. You get the president you deserve, I guess!

IF we actually "elect" him, this time - but with the
possiblities for election fraud inherent in the "electronic"
voting machines they're rushing to adopt, who will be able
to PROVE whether he's actually the choice of the people or
not? Last time I was in England, we were in the throes of
what I then termed "The Great American Comedy". In
retrospect it seems more tragedy than comedy, and things
don't seem to be getting any better.

Miguel Cruz wrote:

    > ash <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>As a Brit I've met many people from the USA over the last couple of years
    >>and every single one without exception has apologised about both being
    >>American and voting in Bush as president at the very start of any
    >>conversation.
    >
    >
    > I assume this is because you haven't spent time in the USA. The farther you
    > get (in sociogeographical terms; leave Mexico out of this) from Texas the
    > more likely the Americans you meet are the type who (A) aren't afraid of the
    > rest of the world just because it's different, and (B) recognize that this
    > is a big difference between them and George Bush.

That's definitely been my experience, here at home - but how
then explain the many polls which show the election as
either too close to call or giving Dubya a slight edge? I
certainly hope all our citizens living abroad have applied
for absentee ballots! (Although one ex-pat friend I saw in
Paris last week expressed doubt as to whether they would be
delivered - apparently the least typo or similar inaccuracy
is looked upon as voiding the application in its entirety.)

"ash" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > As a Brit I've met many people from the USA over the last couple of years
    > and every single one without exception has apologised about both being
    > American and voting in Bush as president at the very start of any
    > conversation. It is now looking likely that the same thing will happen all
    > over again. You get the president you deserve, I guess!


Birds of a feather have a way of sticking together. It must just reflect the
circle you travel in and class of Americans you've met.

2000 Election Vote by Education:

Gore Bush
No H.S. Degree 59% 38%
High School Graduate 48% 49%
Some College 45% 51%
College Graduate 45% 51%


I'll qoute Barry Rubin in "Hating America: A History" (Oxford
University Press):

"Another anti-American technique is to compare the average or even
lowest level of culture or society in the United States with elite
habits in Europe."

[email protected] (Charles Hawtrey) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Obeying those funny little voices, [email protected] (Deep
    > Frayed Morgues) wrote:
    >
    > >So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
    > >out of the country straight after 9/11?
    >
    > Because they weren't?

OK, fine. So can someone point me to a web resource that illustrates
accurately what happened in this regard? I find it hard to believe it
was all made up. There are many cites in Moores book, although I
haven't personally verified them.

    > >And why is it that Osama has
    > >been all but forgotten?
    >
    > Because he hasn't? A full-fledged hunt for OBL would involve
    > trampling on Pakistani sovereignty (since I think the Pakistanis lack
    > both the will and capability to find OBL). That would give "old
    > Europe" yet another excuse to hate us.

Whatever Old Europe is. Italy and Spain are surely part of Old Europe,
even if they backed the war.

Either way, Bush does certainly does appear to have "moved on" from
Osama and created some terrorists that he does know the location of.

    > >And why don't the members of
    > >congress send THEIR kids to war? (ok, that one's easy).
    >
    > Same as it ever was -- all those years ago, GWB himself managed to get
    > himself out of from Vietnam.
    >
    > >And the WMD
    > >lies, questionable voting interference, publicity stunts, irrational
    > >fear campaign, blah, blah, blah...
    >
    > Nobody, but nobody, ever gave a damn whether Saddam had WMDs. It's
    > yet another mark of Bush's incompetence that he cast his argument in
    > terms of the WMD issue.
    >
    > >Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
    > >years of this. Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
    > >clear.
    >
    > I'm afraid the Democrats will once again display their talent for
    > snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

It doesn't help that their policies are damn near identical to the
Republicans, except they suggest they could have done it better. What
is it about the Democrats that make them so scared to actually take
the opposition head-on?

    > My New Year's resolution was not to respond to political threads.
    > Forgive me for I have sinned.

I have been away, and kinda missed them.
---
DFM

In article <[email protected] >, Deep
Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote:

    > [email protected] (Charles Hawtrey) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Obeying those funny little voices, [email protected] (Deep
    > > Frayed Morgues) wrote:
    > >
    > > >So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
    > > >out of the country straight after 9/11?
    > >
    > > Because they weren't?
    >
    > OK, fine. So can someone point me to a web resource that illustrates
    > accurately what happened in this regard? I find it hard to believe it
    > was all made up. There are many cites in Moores book, although I
    > haven't personally verified them.

I already stated: "The 911 Commission Report". Amazon has it. You will
find that Richard Clark, featured prominently in the film, was the
official person to authorize the release of the aircraft and its 24
individuals... yet with about 25% of the film relating to this
incident, Moore elected not to interview (show) the actual person
responsible... Richard Clark.

Moore clearly lied about this.

    >
    > > >And why is it that Osama has
    > > >been all but forgotten?
    > >
    > > Because he hasn't? A full-fledged hunt for OBL would involve
    > > trampling on Pakistani sovereignty (since I think the Pakistanis lack
    > > both the will and capability to find OBL). That would give "old
    > > Europe" yet another excuse to hate us.
    >
    > Whatever Old Europe is. Italy and Spain are surely part of Old Europe,
    > even if they backed the war.
    >
    > Either way, Bush does certainly does appear to have "moved on" from
    > Osama and created some terrorists that he does know the location of.

Perhaps, but that does not change the fact that OBL is in Pakistan, out
of reach of U.S. or any coalition members... Europe, old Europe or
other.
    >
    > > >And why don't the members of
    > > >congress send THEIR kids to war? (ok, that one's easy).
    > >
    > > Same as it ever was -- all those years ago, GWB himself managed to get
    > > himself out of from Vietnam.
    > >
    > > >And the WMD
    > > >lies, questionable voting interference, publicity stunts, irrational
    > > >fear campaign, blah, blah, blah...
    > >
    > > Nobody, but nobody, ever gave a damn whether Saddam had WMDs. It's
    > > yet another mark of Bush's incompetence that he cast his argument in
    > > terms of the WMD issue.
    > >
    > > >Anyway, good luck America, coz I suspect you are gonna get another 4
    > > >years of this. Perhaps after that the pattern will become undeniably
    > > >clear.
    > >
    > > I'm afraid the Democrats will once again display their talent for
    > > snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
    >
    > It doesn't help that their policies are damn near identical to the
    > Republicans, except they suggest they could have done it better. What
    > is it about the Democrats that make them so scared to actually take
    > the opposition head-on?

Half of their constituency wants OUT NOW, the other half wants to
finnish the job... it is doubtful Kerry can walk both sides of this
clear line and maintain his base.

jay
Mon Sep 27, 2004
mailto:[email protected]


    >
    > > My New Year's resolution was not to respond to political threads.
    > > Forgive me for I have sinned.
    >
    > I have been away, and kinda missed them.
    > ---
    > DFM

Go Fig wrote:

    > > > >So can someone tell me a good reason why the Saudis where whisked off
    > > > >out of the country straight after 9/11?
    > > >
    > > > Because they weren't?
    > >
    > > OK, fine. So can someone point me to a web resource that illustrates
    > > accurately what happened in this regard? I find it hard to believe it
    > > was all made up. There are many cites in Moores book, although I
    > > haven't personally verified them.
    > I already stated: "The 911 Commission Report". Amazon has it. You will
    > find that Richard Clark, featured prominently in the film, was the
    > official person to authorize the release of the aircraft and its 24
    > individuals... yet with about 25% of the film relating to this
    > incident, Moore elected not to interview (show) the actual person
    > responsible... Richard Clark.
    > Moore clearly lied about this.

Moore lied? And you think he lied because he did not interview Clark?
Moore reported that some Saudis were picked up and flown out of the country
while the skies were closed to everyone else. The administration denied that
for a long time. It was just recently that they finally came clean and
admitted that it had happened. For more than two years the administration
denied something that only the administration could have approved, and you
call Moore a liar because he didn't interview Clark. AMazing.


    > > Either way, Bush does certainly does appear to have "moved on" from
    > > Osama and created some terrorists that he does know the location of.
    > Perhaps, but that does not change the fact that OBL is in Pakistan, out
    > of reach of U.S. or any coalition members... Europe, old Europe or
    > other.

The fact <?> that Osama bin Laden is in Pakistan? Do you know for a fact that
he is there? Maybe you could sell that information to the government. He has a
huge bounty on his head that you would be able to collect.

    > > It doesn't help that their policies are damn near identical to the
    > > Republicans, except they suggest they could have done it better. What
    > > is it about the Democrats that make them so scared to actually take
    > > the opposition head-on?
    > Half of their constituency wants OUT NOW, the other half wants to
    > finnish the job... it is doubtful Kerry can walk both sides of this
    > clear line and maintain his base.

There were lots of reasons not to go. Aside from the fact that the claims
about an imminent threat to the US, WMDS etc where without any basis in fact,
you had to have known that it was going to create a mess. Having failed to
find WMDs, the US has clearly embarrassed itself. It would be nice to cut your
losses and get out. The problem now is that you opened up that hornets nest,
so it is not practical to get out. You have managed to create the same state
of anarchy in Iraq that you helped to cause in Afghanistan when you thought it
would be funny to screw the soviets by supporting the Islamic fundies. It's
beginning to look like the only way to clean up Iraq is to tolerate another
oppressive despot that you might be able to get along with.

Perhaps this will be a good lesson for people like Kerry who agreed to support
an attack on Iraq in order to force compliance. People who are willing to
make a threat have to be willing to carry out on that threat.