"szozu" <hoppbunny at hotmail com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > About a week ago someone said that a 50 EUR note was rejected because the
    > signature on the note was "fraudulent." Today the same thing happened to
    > me
    > at the supermarket with a 10 EUR note in spite of it being Jean-Claude
    > Trichet's signature. These new notes are just coming into circulation and
    > apparently many cashiers are not being informed:
    > http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/business/3726634.stm
    > http://www.bportugal.pt/bnotes/assinatura_notas_e.htm
    > http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/stor...x8z&n=73841124
    > The whole issue is rather illogical; if someone were going to manufacture
    > counterfeit notes they would probably reproduce the current signature of
    > Wim
    > Duisenberg instead of being creative.

They are signed?

I never realised, presumably it's the squiggle at the top that looks like
a childs attempt to draw a picture of a paper dart.

tim

"Martin Bienwald" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" schrieb:
    >> szozu wrote:
    >>> About a week ago someone said that a 50 EUR note was rejected because
    >>> the
    >>> signature on the note was "fraudulent." Today the same thing happened to
    >>> me
    >>> at the supermarket with a 10 EUR note in spite of it being Jean-Claude
    >>> Trichet's signature. These new notes are just coming into circulation
    >>> and
    >>> apparently many cashiers are not being informed:
    >> Interesting to know that European supermarket clerks can be
    >> as clueless as Amercan ones!
    > They definitely can. Back in 2002, shortly after the Euro was introduced,
    > there were reports of German shop clerks refusing non-German Euro coins,
    > claiming the customer had to exchange them for German Euro coins at a bank
    > ...

There was also a story that in the first week a German supermarket
accepted a 'sample' 500 E note from somebody and gave a substantial
amount of change. If the sample was of the same type that I have, then
it's thin card and only printed on one side.

tim

"Tom Peel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Gerard van Wilgen wrote:

    >> Indeed, and moreover, it seems very unlikely that counterfeiting notes of
    >> 10
    >> euro would be a good idea. It probably costs as much money and effort to
    >> produce them as counterfeit notes of 50 euro, but you have to bring a lot
    >> of
    >> them into circulation (which to me seems to be the riskiest part of the
    >> operation) before you "earn" a decent profit. And I think that
    >> counterfeiting notes of 500 euro is also a bad idea, because it is likely
    >> that such notes will be thoroughly examined before they are accepted (and
    >> they are often used for transactions with people who will do very nasty
    >> things to you when they find out that you payed for the "merchandise"
    >> with
    >> counterfeit money :-) Notes of 50 and 100 euro are by far the most likely
    >> candidates for being counterfeit money.
    >> Gerard van Wilgen
    > Indeed, 50 euro note forgeries appear to be the commonest ones. See
    > http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/eurocft2002.htm for example.

Some time ago there was a prog on the TV where they tested
people with counterfeit notes. They implied that they had actually
asked people to check and see if a note was counterfeit.
They said that *no-one* had spotted the counterfeits.

I am confidient that I (and many others) could spot a counterfeit
if checked unless they counterfeiter had made a good attempt at
creating the watermark and the metal bits (which the report suggest
that they did not). Of course in the real world you don't check
each note for its watermark as you receive it, so it's not that
no-one can spot a counterfeit noite, it's that no-one checked
for one.

Does anybody know if there really are notes in circulation
that could fool the average person if they checked properly
or if the system relies on the punter never checking (which
they don't)

tim

tim wrote:

    >
    > They are signed?
    >
    > I never realised, presumably it's the squiggle at the top that looks like
    > a childs attempt to draw a picture of a paper dart.
    >
    > tim
    >
THAT'S a signature? Like you, I thought is was some sort of
artistic embellishment. Do all euro notes, in every
country, bear the same signature? I just checked all those
I brought back from my last trip, and that "squiggle"
appears to be identical on all of them. Of course they were
all obtained in Paris (mostly from a bank ATM) so they would
most likely all have been issued in France.

I notice the American currency in my wallet bears what are
purportedly signatures of the "Treasurer of the United
States" and "Secretary of the Treasury" - all recognizable
as signatures (although not exactly legible).

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:53:26 +0100, "tim"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Tom Peel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Gerard van Wilgen wrote:
    >>> Indeed, and moreover, it seems very unlikely that counterfeiting notes of
    >>> 10
    >>> euro would be a good idea. It probably costs as much money and effort to
    >>> produce them as counterfeit notes of 50 euro, but you have to bring a lot
    >>> of
    >>> them into circulation (which to me seems to be the riskiest part of the
    >>> operation) before you "earn" a decent profit. And I think that
    >>> counterfeiting notes of 500 euro is also a bad idea, because it is likely
    >>> that such notes will be thoroughly examined before they are accepted (and
    >>> they are often used for transactions with people who will do very nasty
    >>> things to you when they find out that you payed for the "merchandise"
    >>> with
    >>> counterfeit money :-) Notes of 50 and 100 euro are by far the most likely
    >>> candidates for being counterfeit money.
    >>> Gerard van Wilgen
    >> Indeed, 50 euro note forgeries appear to be the commonest ones. See
    >> http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/eurocft2002.htm for example.
    >Some time ago there was a prog on the TV where they tested
    >people with counterfeit notes. They implied that they had actually
    >asked people to check and see if a note was counterfeit.
    >They said that *no-one* had spotted the counterfeits.
    >I am confidient that I (and many others) could spot a counterfeit
    >if checked unless they counterfeiter had made a good attempt at
    >creating the watermark and the metal bits (which the report suggest
    >that they did not). Of course in the real world you don't check
    >each note for its watermark as you receive it, so it's not that
    >no-one can spot a counterfeit noite, it's that no-one checked
    >for one.
    >Does anybody know if there really are notes in circulation
    >that could fool the average person if they checked properly
    >or if the system relies on the punter never checking (which
    >they don't)

A team in UK was reported to have successfully made around GBP50
million worth of forged notes before being caught.

The BBC made a documentary of this case
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/575154.stm


Other successful forgers ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/2951091.stm
http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtime...of_forgers.php
http://www.dotprint.com/newspast/pwfeb22.htm#story4

and on a smaller scale here
http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtime...ote_racket.php
--
Martin

"tim" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
    > They are signed?
    > I never realised, presumably it's the squiggle at the top that looks like
    > a childs attempt to draw a picture of a paper dart.

I have noticed that in some countries (such as the US) people normally just
write their name and this is their signature. In other countries (such as
the Netherlands, where Mr. Duisenberg is from) people normally use any
"scribble" that they like and can reproduce, and that's their signature. It
is impossible for instance to reproduce my name from my signature, and the
same goes for most Dutch people.

Sjoerd

nitram <[email protected]> wrote:

    > A team in UK was reported to have successfully made around GBP50
    > million worth of forged notes before being caught.

Which reminds of a test for authenticity of a £50 note. You dampen the
note - a licked finger will do, then rub it against a piece of paper.
The note - of course - should not be smeared, but a distinct pink smudge
should show on the paper.

joan
--
Joan McGalliard, UK http://www.mcgalliard.org

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:03:35 +0000, jem*NO-SPAM*@netspace.net.au (Joan
McGalliard) wrote:

    >nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> A team in UK was reported to have successfully made around GBP50
    >> million worth of forged notes before being caught.
    >Which reminds of a test for authenticity of a £50 note. You dampen the
    >note - a licked finger will do, then rub it against a piece of paper.
    >The note - of course - should not be smeared, but a distinct pink smudge
    >should show on the paper.

Only if they use crap colours. The successful professionals use almost
the same materials as the Bank of England.

The silver strip was put on the forged notes with a machine that had
been procured for putting a silver strip on fake scent boxes in a
previous less profitable scam. The manager of the bank note forgeries
was actually in prison for much of the time that the team were
printing the notes.
--
Martin

Sjoerd wrote:

    > In other countries (such as
    > the Netherlands, where Mr. Duisenberg is from) people normally use any
    > "scribble" that they like and can reproduce, and that's their signature. It

Max [1] had a nice one:
http://private.addcom.de/koniarek/un...maximilian.jpg

Jens

[1] Maximilian I., Duke and Elector of Bavaria, 1597-1651

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:37:27 +0100, "Sjoerd" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >I have noticed that in some countries (such as the US) people normally just
    >write their name and this is their signature. In other countries (such as
    >the Netherlands, where Mr. Duisenberg is from) people normally use any
    >"scribble" that they like and can reproduce, and that's their signature. It
    >is impossible for instance to reproduce my name from my signature, and the
    >same goes for most Dutch people.

Some signatures are pretty scribbled but, if your name is not evident
in your signature, how is it different from an illiterate person
making a mark (on a legal document, for example) which would require a
witness signature?

Gordon

nitram <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Which reminds of a test for authenticity of a £50 note. You dampen the
    > >note - a licked finger will do, then rub it against a piece of paper.
    > >The note - of course - should not be smeared, but a distinct pink smudge
    > >should show on the paper.
    >
    > Only if they use crap colours. The successful professionals use almost
    > the same materials as the Bank of England.

Sorry, I didn't describe that very well: it's the real notes that leave
the pink smear. If the paper is clean, you've got a forgery.

try it!

joan
--
Joan McGalliard, UK http://www.mcgalliard.org

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:42:38 -0800, Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:

    >An illiterate's mark is rarely distinctive enough to constitute
    >personal ID, and usually not repeatable.

unless the mark is a finger or thumb print.


--
Martin

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:29:54 +0000, jem*NO-SPAM*@netspace.net.au (Joan
McGalliard) wrote:

    >nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >Which reminds of a test for authenticity of a £50 note. You dampen the
    >> >note - a licked finger will do, then rub it against a piece of paper.
    >> >The note - of course - should not be smeared, but a distinct pink smudge
    >> >should show on the paper.
    >>
    >> Only if they use crap colours. The successful professionals use almost
    >> the same materials as the Bank of England.
    >Sorry, I didn't describe that very well: it's the real notes that leave
    >the pink smear. If the paper is clean, you've got a forgery.
    >try it!

LOL sorry!

I don't think I can try it without a forged and a real £50. Perhaps
you could lend me a real one for the experiment? :-)
--
Martin

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > tim wrote:
    >> They are signed?
    >> I never realised, presumably it's the squiggle at the top that looks like
    >> a childs attempt to draw a picture of a paper dart.
    >> tim
    > THAT'S a signature? Like you, I thought is was some sort of artistic
    > embellishment.

This is probably the problem. It looks like it is part of the design
and when you get a note that has something different you think
it's not genuine. If it looked like a signature, few would query it
when it changed.

    > Do all euro notes, in every country, bear the same signature?

Yep, it appears so

    > I just checked all those I brought back from my last trip, and that
    > "squiggle" appears to be identical on all of them. Of course they were
    > all obtained in Paris (mostly from a bank ATM) so they would most likely
    > all have been issued in France.

If the sequence letter is the same then they come from the same
country. I think France is N (my list is at work).

I currently have notes from 5 different countries in my wallet.

    > I notice the American currency in my wallet bears what are purportedly
    > signatures of the "Treasurer of the United States" and "Secretary of the
    > Treasury" - all recognizable as signatures (although not exactly legible).

As are the other countries notes that I have in my 'collection'

tim

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:16:34 -0800, Gordon Forbess
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:37:27 +0100, "Sjoerd" <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>I have noticed that in some countries (such as the US) people normally just
    >>write their name and this is their signature. In other countries (such as
    >>the Netherlands, where Mr. Duisenberg is from) people normally use any
    >>"scribble" that they like and can reproduce, and that's their signature. It
    >>is impossible for instance to reproduce my name from my signature, and the
    >>same goes for most Dutch people.
    >Some signatures are pretty scribbled but, if your name is not evident
    >in your signature, how is it different from an illiterate person
    >making a mark (on a legal document, for example) which would require a
    >witness signature?

An illiterate's mark is rarely distinctive enough to constitute
personal ID, and usually not repeatable. A person's scrawled
signature may not be readable, but it distinctive and more or
less consistent.




************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *