The Brits ID card crisis
Dec 22nd 2004 | 1:10 am
#76
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
th' barn wrote:
>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>
> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
Why? Did you not have any on you?
I remember your post but can't remember the details.
>> Having a formal proof of identity is better than the UK bollocks of
>> having to produce utility bills etc. to prove identity.
>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
>passports.
In the sense that :
if you want to travel, you need a passport.
if you want to identify yourself you need an ID?
--
Tim C.
th' barn wrote:
>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>
> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
Why? Did you not have any on you?
I remember your post but can't remember the details.
>> Having a formal proof of identity is better than the UK bollocks of
>> having to produce utility bills etc. to prove identity.
>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
>passports.
In the sense that :
if you want to travel, you need a passport.
if you want to identify yourself you need an ID?
--
Tim C.
Dec 22nd 2004 | 1:12 am
#77
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:00:33 +0100, Tim Challenger
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:24 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>th' barn wrote:
>>> It's funny, I think that in many parts of the EU identity cards are
>>> commonplace, yet the populations baulk at the idea of video cameras in
>>> public places, yet in the UK it's the other way round. Videos all over the
>>> place actively watching your every move, yet they can't accept a passive ID
>>> card.
>>
>> Actually, there's nothing at all passive about an ID card, depending on
>> how it's implemented. It's already going to _cost_ something. Well, what
>> if it's mandatory as _well_ as costing something? ...
>I mean it's sitting in your pocket until asked for, rather than actively
>shouting your position and identity to all LEOs with a reciever in the
>area. - unless they're going to put RIF tags on them as well.
>Of course they'll cost something. Everything invented by every government
>in history does.
>>With ID cards, it's not only the potential for
>> abuse, but a general distrust of the UK government and technology, given
>> many recent computer cock-ups- passports, benefits and so on.
>The potential for abuse exists for both ID cards and cameras.
The same potential exists for marriage birth & death certificates,
passports, credit cards, driving licenses, utility provider receipts,
bank statements ...
Three of the main Dutch motorways now have cameras linked to computers
that track individual vehicles, calculate, average speed and issue
fines to those whose average speed exceeds the speed limit. Spooky eh?
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:24 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>th' barn wrote:
>>> It's funny, I think that in many parts of the EU identity cards are
>>> commonplace, yet the populations baulk at the idea of video cameras in
>>> public places, yet in the UK it's the other way round. Videos all over the
>>> place actively watching your every move, yet they can't accept a passive ID
>>> card.
>>
>> Actually, there's nothing at all passive about an ID card, depending on
>> how it's implemented. It's already going to _cost_ something. Well, what
>> if it's mandatory as _well_ as costing something? ...
>I mean it's sitting in your pocket until asked for, rather than actively
>shouting your position and identity to all LEOs with a reciever in the
>area. - unless they're going to put RIF tags on them as well.
>Of course they'll cost something. Everything invented by every government
>in history does.
>>With ID cards, it's not only the potential for
>> abuse, but a general distrust of the UK government and technology, given
>> many recent computer cock-ups- passports, benefits and so on.
>The potential for abuse exists for both ID cards and cameras.
The same potential exists for marriage birth & death certificates,
passports, credit cards, driving licenses, utility provider receipts,
bank statements ...
Three of the main Dutch motorways now have cameras linked to computers
that track individual vehicles, calculate, average speed and issue
fines to those whose average speed exceeds the speed limit. Spooky eh?
--
Martin
Dec 22nd 2004 | 1:13 am
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:04:23 +0100, Tim Challenger
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:39:47 +0100, nitram wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:24 +0000, [email protected]
>> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>>
>>>Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:34:13 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>>>> th' barn wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Stu <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I really don't know what the fuss is about. If you've got nothing to hide
>>>> >> then who cares about carrying an ID card. It's not just some sort of "Big
>>>> >> Brother" measure. It can actually be useful if you're in an accident or
>>>> >> something.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree with the use of them, and there are many instances nowadays
>>>> > where _some_ form of ID is required (taking flights, making hotel
>>>> > bookings, etc.)- I think most people would support a voluntary system of
>>>> > ID card. I'd certainly prefer a credit card form of ID over carrying
>>>> > round my passport. The problem is that people in the UK, quite rightly,
>>>> > don't trust their government to, at some point, make the ID cards
>>>> > mandatory, and intrusive.
>>>>
>>>> It's funny, I think that in many parts of the EU identity cards are
>>>> commonplace, yet the populations baulk at the idea of video cameras in
>>>> public places, yet in the UK it's the other way round. Videos all over the
>>>> place actively watching your every move, yet they can't accept a passive ID
>>>> card.
>>>Actually, there's nothing at all passive about an ID card, depending on
>>>how it's implemented. It's already going to _cost_ something. Well, what
>>>if it's mandatory as _well_ as costing something? People are very well
>>>aware of cameras being around, and used a lot in the UK. They'd have to
>>>perceive it was being abused, and it's certainly not a perception I
>>>have. Indeed, I tend to _like_ seeing a sign somewhere mentioning that
>>>you're being recorded. With ID cards, it's not only the potential for
>>>abuse, but a general distrust of the UK government and technology, given
>>>many recent computer cock-ups- passports, benefits and so on.
>>
>> All the result of Mrs T handing out computer contracts to the same US
>> company.
>>
>>>I've mentioned several times before that I was asked to produce ID by an
>>>Italian policeman on the street in Rome. I won't go into the details
>>>again, but the circumstances of it were very intrusive indeed, and I
>>>didn't like it one bit. That said, even without an ID card system,
>>>people in the UK already can be stopped by police- the 'stop and search'
>>>policy is controversial among some people.
>>
>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>> Having a formal proof of identity is better than the UK bollocks of
>> having to produce utility bills etc. to prove identity.
>I moved into a house and in the first week went to get the phone connected.
>"Have you got a gas/electricity bill with your name/address on it, sir?"
>"Course I haven't I've just moved in. Will a passport do?"
>"Ooh, I don't know sir, I'll have to go and ask the manager. ..."
my daughter had the same thing in a UK bank.
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:39:47 +0100, nitram wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:24 +0000, [email protected]
>> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>>
>>>Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:34:13 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>>>> th' barn wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Stu <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I really don't know what the fuss is about. If you've got nothing to hide
>>>> >> then who cares about carrying an ID card. It's not just some sort of "Big
>>>> >> Brother" measure. It can actually be useful if you're in an accident or
>>>> >> something.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree with the use of them, and there are many instances nowadays
>>>> > where _some_ form of ID is required (taking flights, making hotel
>>>> > bookings, etc.)- I think most people would support a voluntary system of
>>>> > ID card. I'd certainly prefer a credit card form of ID over carrying
>>>> > round my passport. The problem is that people in the UK, quite rightly,
>>>> > don't trust their government to, at some point, make the ID cards
>>>> > mandatory, and intrusive.
>>>>
>>>> It's funny, I think that in many parts of the EU identity cards are
>>>> commonplace, yet the populations baulk at the idea of video cameras in
>>>> public places, yet in the UK it's the other way round. Videos all over the
>>>> place actively watching your every move, yet they can't accept a passive ID
>>>> card.
>>>Actually, there's nothing at all passive about an ID card, depending on
>>>how it's implemented. It's already going to _cost_ something. Well, what
>>>if it's mandatory as _well_ as costing something? People are very well
>>>aware of cameras being around, and used a lot in the UK. They'd have to
>>>perceive it was being abused, and it's certainly not a perception I
>>>have. Indeed, I tend to _like_ seeing a sign somewhere mentioning that
>>>you're being recorded. With ID cards, it's not only the potential for
>>>abuse, but a general distrust of the UK government and technology, given
>>>many recent computer cock-ups- passports, benefits and so on.
>>
>> All the result of Mrs T handing out computer contracts to the same US
>> company.
>>
>>>I've mentioned several times before that I was asked to produce ID by an
>>>Italian policeman on the street in Rome. I won't go into the details
>>>again, but the circumstances of it were very intrusive indeed, and I
>>>didn't like it one bit. That said, even without an ID card system,
>>>people in the UK already can be stopped by police- the 'stop and search'
>>>policy is controversial among some people.
>>
>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>> Having a formal proof of identity is better than the UK bollocks of
>> having to produce utility bills etc. to prove identity.
>I moved into a house and in the first week went to get the phone connected.
>"Have you got a gas/electricity bill with your name/address on it, sir?"
>"Course I haven't I've just moved in. Will a passport do?"
>"Ooh, I don't know sir, I'll have to go and ask the manager. ..."
my daughter had the same thing in a UK bank.
--
Martin
Dec 22nd 2004 | 1:16 am
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:10:14 +0100, Tim Challenger
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>th' barn wrote:
>>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>>
>> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
>Why? Did you not have any on you?
>I remember your post but can't remember the details.
Was it the story of aliens lurking outside the Italian station urinals
in the blackout?
>>> Having a formal proof of identity is better than the UK bollocks of
>>> having to produce utility bills etc. to prove identity.
>>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
>>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
>>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
>>passports.
Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
>In the sense that :
>if you want to travel, you need a passport.
>if you want to identify yourself you need an ID?
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>th' barn wrote:
>>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>>
>> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
>Why? Did you not have any on you?
>I remember your post but can't remember the details.
Was it the story of aliens lurking outside the Italian station urinals
in the blackout?
>>> Having a formal proof of identity is better than the UK bollocks of
>>> having to produce utility bills etc. to prove identity.
>>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
>>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
>>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
>>passports.
Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
>In the sense that :
>if you want to travel, you need a passport.
>if you want to identify yourself you need an ID?
--
Martin
Dec 22nd 2004 | 2:58 am
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:10:14 +0100, Tim Challenger
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
> >th' barn wrote:
> >
> >>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
> >>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
> >>
> >> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
> >
> >Why? Did you not have any on you?
> >I remember your post but can't remember the details.
>
> Was it the story of aliens lurking outside the Italian station urinals
> in the blackout?
That's an interesting story- but nothing to do with mine.
> >>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
> >>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
> >>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
> >>passports.
>
> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
You don't have to go abroad- correct.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:10:14 +0100, Tim Challenger
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
> >th' barn wrote:
> >
> >>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
> >>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
> >>
> >> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
> >
> >Why? Did you not have any on you?
> >I remember your post but can't remember the details.
>
> Was it the story of aliens lurking outside the Italian station urinals
> in the blackout?
That's an interesting story- but nothing to do with mine.
> >>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
> >>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
> >>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
> >>passports.
>
> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
You don't have to go abroad- correct.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Dec 22nd 2004 | 2:58 am
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
> th' barn wrote:
>
> >> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
> >> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
> >
> > It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
>
> Why? Did you not have any on you?
No, I didn't, and I didn't know I was required to. Further, as the hotel
insisted on holding my passport, what ID was I required to show? I
showed my Harvard ID FWIW, and that convinced them I was "americano"-
which I'm not.
[]
> >I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
> >ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
> >support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
> >passports.
>
> In the sense that :
> if you want to travel, you need a passport.
> if you want to identify yourself you need an ID?
No. There are times when you _do_ need to identify youself, and people
manage it, amazingly, without an ID card. FWIW, I can identify myself,
say at the bank, with my passport. Actually, my bank has allowed me to
identify myself (when I lost my card, and had no ID) simply by asking
some security questions.
If the government issued non-compulsory ID's, then it would be up to
various institutions to decide whether or not they needed them. An ID,
instead of a passport would, for me, would be preferable to a passport,
simply due to its size. However, do I want my medical history, my bank
details and so on, recorded on the card? [This has been talked about in
the UK as possible add-ons.] I might- it could even be useful, but I'd
prefer the choice.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
> th' barn wrote:
>
> >> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
> >> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
> >
> > It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
>
> Why? Did you not have any on you?
No, I didn't, and I didn't know I was required to. Further, as the hotel
insisted on holding my passport, what ID was I required to show? I
showed my Harvard ID FWIW, and that convinced them I was "americano"-
which I'm not.
[]
> >I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
> >ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
> >support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
> >passports.
>
> In the sense that :
> if you want to travel, you need a passport.
> if you want to identify yourself you need an ID?
No. There are times when you _do_ need to identify youself, and people
manage it, amazingly, without an ID card. FWIW, I can identify myself,
say at the bank, with my passport. Actually, my bank has allowed me to
identify myself (when I lost my card, and had no ID) simply by asking
some security questions.
If the government issued non-compulsory ID's, then it would be up to
various institutions to decide whether or not they needed them. An ID,
instead of a passport would, for me, would be preferable to a passport,
simply due to its size. However, do I want my medical history, my bank
details and so on, recorded on the card? [This has been talked about in
the UK as possible add-ons.] I might- it could even be useful, but I'd
prefer the choice.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Dec 22nd 2004 | 2:58 am
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
[]
> I moved into a house and in the first week went to get the phone connected.
> "Have you got a gas/electricity bill with your name/address on it, sir?"
> "Course I haven't I've just moved in. Will a passport do?"
> "Ooh, I don't know sir, I'll have to go and ask the manager. ..."
When I moved back to the UK (I never lived there as an adult), I called
up BT, and asked them to connect my service in the flat I'd just moved
into, and they said yes, without asking for any kind of ID. That was in
2000.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
[]
> I moved into a house and in the first week went to get the phone connected.
> "Have you got a gas/electricity bill with your name/address on it, sir?"
> "Course I haven't I've just moved in. Will a passport do?"
> "Ooh, I don't know sir, I'll have to go and ask the manager. ..."
When I moved back to the UK (I never lived there as an adult), I called
up BT, and asked them to connect my service in the flat I'd just moved
into, and they said yes, without asking for any kind of ID. That was in
2000.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Dec 22nd 2004 | 2:59 am
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:58:01 +0000, [email protected]
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:10:14 +0100, Tim Challenger
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>> >th' barn wrote:
>> >
>> >>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>> >>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>> >>
>> >> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
>> >
>> >Why? Did you not have any on you?
>> >I remember your post but can't remember the details.
>>
>> Was it the story of aliens lurking outside the Italian station urinals
>> in the blackout?
>That's an interesting story- but nothing to do with mine.
Shame! :-)
>> >>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
>> >>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
>> >>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
>> >>passports.
>>
>> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
>You don't have to go abroad- correct.
and if you do want to go abroad?
--
Martin
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:10:14 +0100, Tim Challenger
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:50:54 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>> >th' barn wrote:
>> >
>> >>> In almost 40 years of travelling around Europe with the exception of
>> >>> frontiers, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
>> >>
>> >> It's only happened to me once. But, it's not nice.
>> >
>> >Why? Did you not have any on you?
>> >I remember your post but can't remember the details.
>>
>> Was it the story of aliens lurking outside the Italian station urinals
>> in the blackout?
>That's an interesting story- but nothing to do with mine.
Shame! :-)
>> >>I've said already written that I think this is a useful, uh, use, of an
>> >>ID card. If I trusted the government not to cock it up, I'd probably
>> >>support it- and I certainly support a purely voluntary scheme- as with
>> >>passports.
>>
>> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
>You don't have to go abroad- correct.
and if you do want to go abroad?
--
Martin
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:04 am
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:58:01 +0000, [email protected]
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>
> >nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
[]
> >> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
> >
> >You don't have to go abroad- correct.
>
> and if you do want to go abroad?
You get a passport, just like you have to get a driver's license and
pass a test if you want to drive. I really don't see a relevant
connection here. I'll say it again. I don't particularly have a problem
with the government issuing ID cards- I just don't like being forced to
have one. The UK government is making a very poor case at the moment for
why we need one, all the more risible as if they were _that_ useful and
important, and post September 11, blah, blah, blah, why are we talking
about them being introduced around a decade hence?
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:58:01 +0000, [email protected]
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>
> >nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
[]
> >> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
> >
> >You don't have to go abroad- correct.
>
> and if you do want to go abroad?
You get a passport, just like you have to get a driver's license and
pass a test if you want to drive. I really don't see a relevant
connection here. I'll say it again. I don't particularly have a problem
with the government issuing ID cards- I just don't like being forced to
have one. The UK government is making a very poor case at the moment for
why we need one, all the more risible as if they were _that_ useful and
important, and post September 11, blah, blah, blah, why are we talking
about them being introduced around a decade hence?
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:15 am
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:04:26 +0000, [email protected]
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:58:01 +0000, [email protected]
>> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>>
>> >nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>[]
>> >> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
>> >
>> >You don't have to go abroad- correct.
>>
>> and if you do want to go abroad?
>You get a passport, just like you have to get a driver's license and
>pass a test if you want to drive. I really don't see a relevant
>connection here.
It's odd that others do.
>I'll say it again. I don't particularly have a problem
>with the government issuing ID cards- I just don't like being forced to
>have one. The UK government is making a very poor case at the moment for
>why we need one,
To anybody, who has had to prove ID in UK, it's all to obvious why you
need one.
>all the more risible as if they were _that_ useful and
>important, and post September 11, blah, blah, blah, why are we talking
>about them being introduced around a decade hence?
You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half the
population goes abroad, what's the difference?
--
Martin
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:58:01 +0000, [email protected]
>> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>>
>> >nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>[]
>> >> Passports are only voluntary if you don't want to go abroad.
>> >
>> >You don't have to go abroad- correct.
>>
>> and if you do want to go abroad?
>You get a passport, just like you have to get a driver's license and
>pass a test if you want to drive. I really don't see a relevant
>connection here.
It's odd that others do.
>I'll say it again. I don't particularly have a problem
>with the government issuing ID cards- I just don't like being forced to
>have one. The UK government is making a very poor case at the moment for
>why we need one,
To anybody, who has had to prove ID in UK, it's all to obvious why you
need one.
>all the more risible as if they were _that_ useful and
>important, and post September 11, blah, blah, blah, why are we talking
>about them being introduced around a decade hence?
You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half the
population goes abroad, what's the difference?
--
Martin
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:19 am
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half the
>population goes abroad, what's the difference?
Not quite: you can come to Ireland.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
>You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half the
>population goes abroad, what's the difference?
Not quite: you can come to Ireland.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:22 am
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:19:33 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:
>nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>>You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half the
>>population goes abroad, what's the difference?
>Not quite: you can come to Ireland.
Only if I am forced to :-)
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>>You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half the
>>population goes abroad, what's the difference?
>Not quite: you can come to Ireland.
Only if I am forced to :-)
--
Martin
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:27 am
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
nitram wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:04:26 +0000,
[email protected]
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
[snip]
> >I'll say it again. I don't particularly have a problem
> >with the government issuing ID cards- I just don't like being forced
to
> >have one. The UK government is making a very poor case at the moment
for
> >why we need one,
> To anybody, who has had to prove ID in UK, it's all to obvious why
you
> need one.
Don't you have a wide variety of options available? Corporate
ID, passports, credit cards, a wide variety of government issued
ID's? My problem isn't having enough per se, it's more of a case
of too many. Well, at least as far as my wallet is concerned.
> >all the more risible as if they were _that_ useful and
> >important, and post September 11, blah, blah, blah, why are we
talking
> >about them being introduced around a decade hence?
> You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half
the
> population goes abroad, what's the difference?
Are you? Here is the US we can technically go alot of places
without passports. Passports are a requirement of the country
to which to travel to. Getting back in the US can be tough without
one, but as long as you can "prove" your citizenship, they basically
have to let you back in.
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:04:26 +0000,
[email protected]
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
[snip]
> >I'll say it again. I don't particularly have a problem
> >with the government issuing ID cards- I just don't like being forced
to
> >have one. The UK government is making a very poor case at the moment
for
> >why we need one,
> To anybody, who has had to prove ID in UK, it's all to obvious why
you
> need one.
Don't you have a wide variety of options available? Corporate
ID, passports, credit cards, a wide variety of government issued
ID's? My problem isn't having enough per se, it's more of a case
of too many. Well, at least as far as my wallet is concerned.
> >all the more risible as if they were _that_ useful and
> >important, and post September 11, blah, blah, blah, why are we
talking
> >about them being introduced around a decade hence?
> You are *forced* to have a passport if you want to go abroad. Half
the
> population goes abroad, what's the difference?
Are you? Here is the US we can technically go alot of places
without passports. Passports are a requirement of the country
to which to travel to. Getting back in the US can be tough without
one, but as long as you can "prove" your citizenship, they basically
have to let you back in.
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:30 am
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:58:02 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
th' barn wrote:
> Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> []
>> I moved into a house and in the first week went to get the phone connected.
>> "Have you got a gas/electricity bill with your name/address on it, sir?"
>> "Course I haven't I've just moved in. Will a passport do?"
>> "Ooh, I don't know sir, I'll have to go and ask the manager. ..."
>
> When I moved back to the UK (I never lived there as an adult), I called
> up BT, and asked them to connect my service in the flat I'd just moved
> into, and they said yes, without asking for any kind of ID. That was in
> 2000.
Mine was in 1990, and I want into the phoneshop in person. Maybe I just
look shifty.
--
Tim C.
th' barn wrote:
> Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> []
>> I moved into a house and in the first week went to get the phone connected.
>> "Have you got a gas/electricity bill with your name/address on it, sir?"
>> "Course I haven't I've just moved in. Will a passport do?"
>> "Ooh, I don't know sir, I'll have to go and ask the manager. ..."
>
> When I moved back to the UK (I never lived there as an adult), I called
> up BT, and asked them to connect my service in the flat I'd just moved
> into, and they said yes, without asking for any kind of ID. That was in
> 2000.
Mine was in 1990, and I want into the phoneshop in person. Maybe I just
look shifty.
--
Tim C.
Dec 22nd 2004 | 3:31 am
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brits ID card crisis
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:12:59 +0100, nitram wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:00:33 +0100, Tim Challenger
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:24 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>>th' barn wrote:
>>>> It's funny, I think that in many parts of the EU identity cards are
>>>> commonplace, yet the populations baulk at the idea of video cameras in
>>>> public places, yet in the UK it's the other way round. Videos all over the
>>>> place actively watching your every move, yet they can't accept a passive ID
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> Actually, there's nothing at all passive about an ID card, depending on
>>> how it's implemented. It's already going to _cost_ something. Well, what
>>> if it's mandatory as _well_ as costing something? ...
>>I mean it's sitting in your pocket until asked for, rather than actively
>>shouting your position and identity to all LEOs with a reciever in the
>>area. - unless they're going to put RIF tags on them as well.
>>Of course they'll cost something. Everything invented by every government
>>in history does.
>>>With ID cards, it's not only the potential for
>>> abuse, but a general distrust of the UK government and technology, given
>>> many recent computer cock-ups- passports, benefits and so on.
>>The potential for abuse exists for both ID cards and cameras.
>
> The same potential exists for marriage birth & death certificates,
> passports, credit cards, driving licenses, utility provider receipts,
> bank statements ...
>
> Three of the main Dutch motorways now have cameras linked to computers
> that track individual vehicles, calculate, average speed and issue
> fines to those whose average speed exceeds the speed limit. Spooky eh?
They're starting to do that on stretches of road in Austria. "Section
Control" they call it. Starting with a few accident hotspots, they'll
almost certainly be extended to anywhere they fancy, limited only by
political will and budget.
--
Tim C.
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:00:33 +0100, Tim Challenger
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:24 +0000, chancellor of the duchy of besses o'
>>th' barn wrote:
>>>> It's funny, I think that in many parts of the EU identity cards are
>>>> commonplace, yet the populations baulk at the idea of video cameras in
>>>> public places, yet in the UK it's the other way round. Videos all over the
>>>> place actively watching your every move, yet they can't accept a passive ID
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> Actually, there's nothing at all passive about an ID card, depending on
>>> how it's implemented. It's already going to _cost_ something. Well, what
>>> if it's mandatory as _well_ as costing something? ...
>>I mean it's sitting in your pocket until asked for, rather than actively
>>shouting your position and identity to all LEOs with a reciever in the
>>area. - unless they're going to put RIF tags on them as well.
>>Of course they'll cost something. Everything invented by every government
>>in history does.
>>>With ID cards, it's not only the potential for
>>> abuse, but a general distrust of the UK government and technology, given
>>> many recent computer cock-ups- passports, benefits and so on.
>>The potential for abuse exists for both ID cards and cameras.
>
> The same potential exists for marriage birth & death certificates,
> passports, credit cards, driving licenses, utility provider receipts,
> bank statements ...
>
> Three of the main Dutch motorways now have cameras linked to computers
> that track individual vehicles, calculate, average speed and issue
> fines to those whose average speed exceeds the speed limit. Spooky eh?
They're starting to do that on stretches of road in Austria. "Section
Control" they call it. Starting with a few accident hotspots, they'll
almost certainly be extended to anywhere they fancy, limited only by
political will and budget.
--
Tim C.
