Jp

"TMOliver" <olive(DEL)@calpha.com> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (amp_spamfree) iterated.....
    > > [email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Second, what is McDonalds if not an "authentic" American restaurant - now I've
    > >> >been able to find one of those in every country I've visited.
    > >>
SNIP
    > For its first 200 years, "American" food was largely a composite of European
    > culinary origins blended with the fairly simple menus of native Americans (inc.
    > Mexico and Canada). In the last fifty years, the melange has begun to taste of new
    > waves of immigrants, each wave of which has quickly altered its home and restaurant
    > kitchens to reflect availability and tastes, often quaintly, as in the little
    > Filipino "Mongolian" restaurant on Galveston Bay which quickly stir fries fresh
    > seafood from the counters of the Vietnamese shrimpers a 100' down the road with
    > vegetables on what appear to be surplus farm disk harrows converted for kitchen use
    > with the axle holes welded shut.
    > Now, that's American cuisine....
    > A friend, an OB/GYN of Persian heritage, agrees, claiming that absent the ripe,
    > full fleshed peaches of Shiraz, he'll have to make do with the ones from Mexia.
    > TMO


Bravo, bravo, bravo !! Trois fois bravo !!!

jp


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
(http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 /
Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 2/08/02

Amp_spamfree

[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Furthermore, most fishing in North America is large scale commercial fishing.
    > Most fishing anywhere is large scale commercial fishing.

Where do you come up with these tidbits of misinformation? UK fisheries industry
employees 22,000 in 581 concerns - that is an average of 78 employees per. Not
exactly Large Scale.

ANTONIO BARILLARI S.A., one of the largest in Argentina - 9 boats. ARCTIC
Fisheries, one of the larger producers in the US - 4 ocean trawlers. Boyd (UK) - two
trawlers Chun Cheng - about the biggest shashimi provider out of Singopore - 4
trawlers. Fisherie Products Int. - Canada - Size of fleet? 18.

There are no dominant players - a lot of small ones from a lot of places. It's
commercial but it is far from large scale (in the automobile sense of scale,
anyway.). There are over 300 MAJOR international fishery licensees and that doesn't
include the thousands of small local ma and pas or any of the inland fisheries.

    > >Go to the evening/afternoon fish auction, say, in a small town in Spain, you'll
    > >end up with lots of local shore stuff that's hard to find in the US.
    > It's hard to find only because the fish/seafood species are different (probably
    > my most favorite seafood is something called ``percepes'' which I only saw in
    > Spain and Portugal, never in the US). Otherwise, there are plenty of little
    > harbors on both coasts of the US where you can drive up to the pier and buy fish
    > from a small boat, or have it cooked right there and then. Places like
    > Princeton-by-the-Sea and Moss Landing near where I live, or similar places in New
    > England. I've seen plenty. Much prettier than Europe, too.

Defeats the whole argument that it's big and commercial - now it's small and quaint?

Yeh, right - there you go again.

    > >Then there is the issue of cold vs. warm water. With cold sea fish usually being
    > >better.
    > This is true, but most of the west coast and New England are cold water.

As is the Baltic. But then again, you don't get much mahi mahi in cold water, now do
you. And how are the North Atlantic shrimp? Grouper doesn't do so well in cold
water, nor does tuna. Red snapper
- now there's a taste favorite.

If you want salmon, Scotland and Sweden beat anything Oregon has to offer.

So, where does that leave this? Fisheries is a cottage industry, warm versus cold
seems to be a toss up, and "prettier" places on the New England coast? Apparently
you missed out on the Med.

I'm all for opinion entitlements, but Vitaly, at least get the basic facts straight
before you go to the Europe bashing.

amp

David Horne

JBM <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Ach, the difference hits you in the face. And, for all intents and purposes, there
    > are two different pisco sours...

Well, I've had two different kinds- doubt they're _the_ two different kinds though.
Made by myself, with a packet of mix, or made by a Pervuvian, with a wisked egg.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

David Horne

JBM <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Ach, don't even start about my mum (bless her) and her "chili con carne." To broach
    > the topic another way: when she made "curry," it would always include a boiled egg.
    > Now what was that about? Still...

Well, not boiled eggs eggsactly, but some fusions have a lot of eggs- for example
Parsi cooking in India. I had the pleasure of staying in such a woman's house in
Delhi when I was 16, and most meals would include eggs in various form, usually
simply steamed atop spicy spinach. Really yummy. Persian cuisine in some forms
features eggs quite a lot.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

David Horne

JBM <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Meanwhile, off topic I know, but I'm climbing into a plane tomorrow morning--off
    > to Scandinavia and Spitzbergen.

Spitzbergen? I'm jealous. What on earth takes you there? Not Latino studies, I
take it?

    > I've never been fully convinced by Scandinavian food, on the principle that black
    > bread and herring is good for one meal a day, but not all three. However, I'm
    > excited by the possibility of whale meat--perhaps even polar bear?--in
    > Longyearbyen. I'll report back.

I have had whale meat, and I thought it was OK. I'm half norwegian, and I find some
food there absolutely divine (good kjøttkaker or raspeballer for example) and others
(steamed cod with boiled potatoes!) a bit humdrum. On the whole though- really tasty
IMO. Sheep's Head? Really is very good! Hope you have some good food!

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Erilar

In article <[email protected]>, "Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > O-o-o-o-h, if it's hazelnut flavored, I like it already, untasted! (My favorite
    > flavor of gelato is hazelnut, also.)

Ritter Sport Alpenmilch. And I've found Ritter Sport in the US. Unfortunately, I
can't find my favorite, their Halbbitter, but I have found the one with whole
hazelnuts in it, as well as Alpenmilch and a few others.

--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)


Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstr-
eamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Hatunen

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:10:59 GMT, TMOliver <olive(DEL)@calpha.com> wrote:

    >[email protected] (amp_spamfree) iterated.....
    >> [email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
    >> news:<[email protected]>...
    >>> In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> >Second, what is McDonalds if not an "authentic" American restaurant - now I've
    >>> >been able to find one of those in every country I've visited.
    >>> McDonalds is an authentic fast-food restaurant, with emphasis on fast. While
    >>> there are plenty of McDonaldses all over Europe, speaking of authentic American
    >>> cuisine, it's still very difficult to find a good hamburger or a good BBQ.
    >> I haven't had problems on either account. In fact, Planet Hollywood, TGIF, and
    >> Hard Rock...all "typical" American restaurants are readily available, with almost
    >> identical menus, in most major and many minor European cities. As for authentic
    >> American food, what is more authentic than your major chains. If it wasn't
    >> authentic American, why so many and so much?
    >Jeez, if you think the food served at places like Planet Hollywood, TGIF or Hard
    >rock is "authentic American", I've got this bridge I'd like to sell you. They are
    >about as far from authentic American as it gets....

This gets down to the question everyone is avoiding, perhaps because it woudl spoil
the fun, to wit: What does "authentic" mean when it comes to national food?


[...]

>> At Sainsbury's I can get, without a problem, everything but linguica - in part
>> because I'm not quite sure what that is and I've never looked.
>
>No, you simply think you can, and in ignorance is bliss, and enough to prepare some
>pretty basic TexMex, but not mexican food....

You make an important point being overlooked: TexMex is NOT Mexican food; it is
TexMex. On the other hand, that makes it an "authentic" American food. Like the
chimichanga.

    >"Chili" in my eyes and to my palate is a dish immeasurably different than that
    >called chili in Ohio or down at Wendy's. Like so much else in the American culinary
    >palette, it's a blend (or a hundred lifferent local blends), of what to do with a
    >lot of beef (and we've always had a lot, often so much that the hides were worth
    >more than the loins), especially less than prime/choice beef, that could be done
    >easily and in "big pot' volume for public sale or several days feeding.

In this area, which partakes of the Sonoran culture, chile (as it's spelled here)
does not have ground beef or beans in it. Chile con carne rojo is a very different
thing than that chili con carne that comes in a can from Hormel.

[...]

************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******

David Horne

Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Chacun a son gout, as they say. I wonder, though, if you have had true Mexican
    > cuisine, rather than the tacos and burritos that basically constitute the diet of
    > the poorer folk.

That doesn't make it any less authentic though, surely?

FWIW, I've had real Mexican food, if having it in Mexico counts, and I've enjoyed it
on the whole. I find it a bit heavy at first, because it seems to use a lot more lard
than I'm used to, but that passes after a while. I've had some really humdrum food
there too, but I attribute that to bad luck in touristy areas. Unfortunately, I've
never managed to get off the beaten track in Mexico- I'm sure I'd enjoy that, and the
food. But, as I mentioned before, once you _get_ to Mexico, you realise that each
state practically has its own unique cuisine.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Hatunen

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:30:13 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne) wrote:

    >Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Chacun a son gout, as they say. I wonder, though, if you have had true Mexican
    >> cuisine, rather than the tacos and burritos that basically constitute the diet of
    >> the poorer folk.
    >That doesn't make it any less authentic though, surely?

No, it doesn't. My point is that one shouldn't condemn an entire country's cuisine
based on one part of it. And see my post in another place about just what "authentic"
means in this context.

    >FWIW, I've had real Mexican food, if having it in Mexico counts, and I've enjoyed it
    >on the whole. I find it a bit heavy at first, because it seems to use a lot more
    >lard than I'm used to,

Well, yeah. but it seems to make it taste better so to hell with my cardiologist from
time to time.

    >but that passes after a while. I've had some really humdrum food there too, but I
    >attribute that to bad luck in touristy areas. Unfortunately, I've never managed to
    >get off the beaten track in Mexico- I'm sure I'd enjoy that, and the food. But, as I
    >mentioned before, once you _get_ to Mexico, you realise that each state practically
    >has its own unique cuisine.

That it does. It's like slamming French food when all you've had is Provencal
(although I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't like Provencal).



************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******

David Horne

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:

    > But restaurant cuisine differs from home cuisine almost everywhere. The stuff you
    > get in restaurants in India is not what you get in most homes - people don't have
    > the time or energy - or equipment.

I'd beg to differ there, at least as far as India is concerned. I spent quite a bit
of time there as a teenager, staying with Indians, and eating out a lot. If anything,
and this might seem strange, I found the standard of home cooking _superior_ to that
in restaurants. Then again, it's worth remembering that the middle class in India
have cooks, servants etc., so it's perhaps easier for them to cook creatively than
the average middle-class household in the West. It was an experience that really
spoils you, obviously. At one point, I had a cook simply employed for _me_. I was
lavished with freshly made chapatis with every meal- as a result I can't bare to
order them in restaurants. They just don't taste as good- freshly made or not!

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

David Horne

Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > No, it doesn't. My point is that one shouldn't condemn an entire country's cuisine
    > based on one part of it. And see my post in another place about just what
    > "authentic" means in this context.

Ah, sorry- it's hard to keep up!

    > >FWIW, I've had real Mexican food, if having it in Mexico counts, and I've enjoyed
    > >it on the whole. I find it a bit heavy at first, because it seems to use a lot
    > >more lard than I'm used to,
    > Well, yeah. but it seems to make it taste better so to hell with my cardiologist
    > from time to time.

I agree, and it's not just Mexico. Quite a lot of latin american cuisine uses lard,
but (as with US Mexican) often substitutes it for vegetable oils in the US, Western
Europe, etc. A bit like the wonderful Indian Ghee (clarified butter), which isn't
used as much in Indian restaurants in the west- but really is the essence of the
taste of much of the food
IMO.

    > That it does. It's like slamming French food when all you've had is Provencal
    > (although I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't like Provencal).

I'm a rather strange bird in that, I reckon I like almost anything, providing it's
well made. I've not been everywhere, by any means, and friends of mine have
complained, for example, about the food in the Czech republic, but I'm convinced they
have good food (most cultures do, don't they?) and I'd enjoy it if I went to the
right places!

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Evelyn Vogt Gamble

David Horne wrote:
    > Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > (aside from having the same basic ingredients), my (Minnesota) mother's recipe
    > > for "chili con carne" was mostly red beans, ground beef, canned tomatoes, onion
    > > and a single teaspoonful (!!!) of chili-powder.
    > Think that's bad? A texan friend of mine (not Latina, obviously) complained that
    > her mum used to make chili con carne using ketchup!

Well, we grew tomatoes in the summer, and Mom was into home-preserving stuff for
winter use. Also, ketchup cost money (and I grew up during the "Great Depression") -
otherwise, she might have, too!

Tmoliver

[email protected] (Hatunen) iterated.....


    > Chacun a son gout, as they say. I wonder, though, if you have had true Mexican
    > cuisine, rather than the tacos and burritos that basically constitute the diet of
    > the poorer folk.
Traveling extensively in Mexico since childhood, I never once experienced anything
called a burrito, a 'merkin name like chimichanga's a 'merkin dish, burrito a North
of the Border appellation for an overstuffed taco done on a flour tortilla.


...as for los pobres, their diet was and remains even duller, beans & tortillas or
tortillas & beans, excited with little more than a bit of salt and chiles in form
or another.

Even enchiladas seem more 'merkinized, although a variety of dishes called enchiladas
are found in different regions, sometimes stacked rather than rolled, and never with
such nasty Calfornia abortive additives as chopped ripe olives.

....but tacos...from squash blossoms to tiny better remaining unidentifiable
critters, tacos can be somewhat diverse in content...(although I never rember a "fish
taco" as a boy or young man, and as student travelers we ate a lot of seafood because
it was cheaper than other meats in Vera Cruz, etc.

TMO

Chili made with ground meat is no more than flavored Sloppy Joe topping, undeserving
of any name at all...

Evelyn Vogt Gamble

[email protected] wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, olive(DEL)@calpha.com
    > (TMOliver) wrote:
    > > hammering my hook is one of the purely "American" sort of pleasures, right there
    > > with the smells of dog sweat and
    > I hate to be pedantic, but I was under the impression dogs didn't sweat.

They don't! (Neither do cats, or a host of other four-footed creatures.) Horses do,
of course, and I think pigs do, too, but dogs, no - they pant, instead.

Evelyn Vogt Gamble

Hatunen wrote:
    > This gets down to the question everyone is avoiding, perhaps because it woudl spoil
    > the fun, to wit: What does "authentic" mean when it comes to national food?

Especially in America, where our "roots" may be anywhere in the world, and "family
recipes" be handed down from grandparents and great grandparents from a variety of
national origins? (Often "adapted" to available ingredients, when the "authentic"
ones weren't around.)