6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
Jul 13th 2004, 5:49 am
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train -TheyThoughtShe Was A Jew - She Isn't
PTRAVEL <[email protected]> wrote:
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
"Maghreb" is the Arabic word for Morocco. Comes from the root for "west",
which is amusingly also the word for "strange".
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
"Maghreb" is the Arabic word for Morocco. Comes from the root for "west",
which is amusingly also the word for "strange".
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Jul 13th 2004, 7:03 am
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They
On 12/07/04 22:48, in article [email protected], "PTRAVEL"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently reside
> in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
It should not be forgotten that a large number of French (Pieds Noirs) were
also "North Africans" and Christian. Indeed, several papers were presented
at a conference in Paris several weeks ago which dealt with the
development of anti-Semitism in French Algeria by the French community there
and how it, in turn, influenced the "Arab" community (Berbers are not Arab
but that is another issue). The population mix that exited North Africa
at the end of the Algerian war is complex, includes Jews (Sephardics),
the Pieds Noirs and the Muslim supporters of the France. Later immigration
was for economic reasons and these are Muslims.
We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
and its own
Arabophobia. The only target available to the Arab underclass
in France are the Jews. This population may well be more anti-American than
anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved things
in that direction.
One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
"I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
to the French.
Earl
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently reside
> in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
It should not be forgotten that a large number of French (Pieds Noirs) were
also "North Africans" and Christian. Indeed, several papers were presented
at a conference in Paris several weeks ago which dealt with the
development of anti-Semitism in French Algeria by the French community there
and how it, in turn, influenced the "Arab" community (Berbers are not Arab
but that is another issue). The population mix that exited North Africa
at the end of the Algerian war is complex, includes Jews (Sephardics),
the Pieds Noirs and the Muslim supporters of the France. Later immigration
was for economic reasons and these are Muslims.
We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
and its own
Arabophobia. The only target available to the Arab underclass
in France are the Jews. This population may well be more anti-American than
anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved things
in that direction.
One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
"I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
to the French.
Earl
Jul 13th 2004, 8:10 am
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack -- Fabulation -
"FransHals" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> the relgion of peace?
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
of non existant atacks several times before.
Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
cpmac
[email protected]...
> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> the relgion of peace?
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
of non existant atacks several times before.
Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
cpmac
Jul 13th 2004, 8:58 am
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack -- Fabulation -
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:10:33 +0200, "Colin McGarry" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"FransHals" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected].. .
>> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>> the relgion of peace?
>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
>of non existant atacks several times before.
>Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
>her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
>saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
And anti-French hysteria from the usual dumb american assholes.
wrote:
>"FransHals" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected].. .
>> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>> the relgion of peace?
>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
>of non existant atacks several times before.
>Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
>her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
>saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
And anti-French hysteria from the usual dumb american assholes.
Jul 13th 2004, 11:00 am
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train -TheyThoughtShe
Dans l'article <[email protected]>, "PTRAVEL"
<[email protected]> a écrit :
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
"Maghrebin" comes from "Maghreb", which Webster's Dictionary defines as: "NW
Africa, chiefly Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia: the Arabic name."
Donna Evleth
<[email protected]> a écrit :
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
"Maghrebin" comes from "Maghreb", which Webster's Dictionary defines as: "NW
Africa, chiefly Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia: the Arabic name."
Donna Evleth
Jul 13th 2004, 12:30 pm
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
[email protected] (FransHals) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "Bill_The_Butcher" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>> "Certic" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:ccujus$fmc [email protected]:
>>
>> >
>> > Bill_The_Butcher <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >
>>
>> > -------
>> > I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
>> > Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is
>> > *not* anything like "Je Surrendre"...
>> >
>> > --
>>
>> LOL! I've been to the UK enough to know that the average Brit is in
>> no position to call anyone else "ignorant". Ask the average school
>> child in the UK to define the term "Yellow Menace", and he's likely
>> to point at his "Mum's" snaggletoothed smile.
>>
>> Besides, my lager-lout friend, the words "Je me rends" will sound
>> much nicer in a thick cockney accent when your Muslim population
>> becomes the majority in the UK. Your right on the heels of France.
>> Too bad your beloved "beeb" won't have live coverage.
>
>
> Bill - not all Brits are pro-IslamoFascists like our own Michael
> Moore, the Clintons and Democratic Party.
Franz, I know that. I've perused many of the posts in the British NG's
and was delighted to see that many Brits (unlike their duplicitous
neighbors across the channel) are actual cognizant of the threat that's
being posed to their great nation at the hands of these Mohammedan
luddites/invaders.
As far as that bloated bucket of swill is concerned, Michael Moore, each
time he ventures to Europe to denigrate America & give comfort to our
enemies I keep hoping that he doesn't return...but he still does. Isn't
there anyone left in Europe with a sniper rifle & strong dislike for the
"American consumer"? Moore consumes enough food in one week to feed 70
starving African villages for a year. Knock off Moore and we Yanks will
pass the surplus chow along to the Third World...promise!
>
> The current Lib/Lab/Con single party rule in England/Britain is if
> anything more accomodating to Islam than France. I am making no
> exuses for France but the French are much closer to North Africa than
> the UK. The criminal political class in the UK went out of their way
> to import 2 million IslamoFascists. The good Brits have been totally
> railroaded because they have no opposition press or media.
>
As much as I admire Blair for the stand he took on Iraq, and for the
undying friendship he has displayed towards America since 9/11, if he
and his party are doing that kind of harm to the UK by endorsing an
obviously insane policy of self-inflicted cultural genocide, then
perhaps it's time you guys show him & his party the door. It would be
the mother of all pities if the great British nation, a nation that has
contributed so much to the progress of human civilization, were to come
under the thumb of a horde of savagely backward, grotesquely intolerant
"Koranimals".
The British people are better than that, and unlike their pusillanimous,
effeminate neighbors to the south, they deserve better than that.
--
"The Arabs cannot accept the existence of Israel. Those who accept it
are not normal. The best solution for the [Palestinian] Arabs in Israel
is to go and live in the Arab states." - David Ben-Gurion
news:[email protected]:
> "Bill_The_Butcher" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>> "Certic" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:ccujus$fmc [email protected]:
>>
>> >
>> > Bill_The_Butcher <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >
>>
>> > -------
>> > I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
>> > Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is
>> > *not* anything like "Je Surrendre"...
>> >
>> > --
>>
>> LOL! I've been to the UK enough to know that the average Brit is in
>> no position to call anyone else "ignorant". Ask the average school
>> child in the UK to define the term "Yellow Menace", and he's likely
>> to point at his "Mum's" snaggletoothed smile.
>>
>> Besides, my lager-lout friend, the words "Je me rends" will sound
>> much nicer in a thick cockney accent when your Muslim population
>> becomes the majority in the UK. Your right on the heels of France.
>> Too bad your beloved "beeb" won't have live coverage.
>
>
> Bill - not all Brits are pro-IslamoFascists like our own Michael
> Moore, the Clintons and Democratic Party.
Franz, I know that. I've perused many of the posts in the British NG's
and was delighted to see that many Brits (unlike their duplicitous
neighbors across the channel) are actual cognizant of the threat that's
being posed to their great nation at the hands of these Mohammedan
luddites/invaders.
As far as that bloated bucket of swill is concerned, Michael Moore, each
time he ventures to Europe to denigrate America & give comfort to our
enemies I keep hoping that he doesn't return...but he still does. Isn't
there anyone left in Europe with a sniper rifle & strong dislike for the
"American consumer"? Moore consumes enough food in one week to feed 70
starving African villages for a year. Knock off Moore and we Yanks will
pass the surplus chow along to the Third World...promise!
>
> The current Lib/Lab/Con single party rule in England/Britain is if
> anything more accomodating to Islam than France. I am making no
> exuses for France but the French are much closer to North Africa than
> the UK. The criminal political class in the UK went out of their way
> to import 2 million IslamoFascists. The good Brits have been totally
> railroaded because they have no opposition press or media.
>
As much as I admire Blair for the stand he took on Iraq, and for the
undying friendship he has displayed towards America since 9/11, if he
and his party are doing that kind of harm to the UK by endorsing an
obviously insane policy of self-inflicted cultural genocide, then
perhaps it's time you guys show him & his party the door. It would be
the mother of all pities if the great British nation, a nation that has
contributed so much to the progress of human civilization, were to come
under the thumb of a horde of savagely backward, grotesquely intolerant
"Koranimals".
The British people are better than that, and unlike their pusillanimous,
effeminate neighbors to the south, they deserve better than that.
--
"The Arabs cannot accept the existence of Israel. Those who accept it
are not normal. The best solution for the [Palestinian] Arabs in Israel
is to go and live in the Arab states." - David Ben-Gurion
Jul 13th 2004, 1:02 pm
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
>Ah, one of yours, is she? I wondered if "Magda" was yet another Nazi sock
>puppet and now it's been confirmed.
I haven't been following this thread very closely, and I'm
much to lazy to read all the preceding notes, so I don't
know the context of your comment, but...
As it happens, I was fortunate enough to have lunch with
Magda last time I was in Paris -- and I have to tell you, if
she's a sock puppet, she's a most *charming* sock puppet...
>puppet and now it's been confirmed.
I haven't been following this thread very closely, and I'm
much to lazy to read all the preceding notes, so I don't
know the context of your comment, but...
As it happens, I was fortunate enough to have lunch with
Magda last time I was in Paris -- and I have to tell you, if
she's a sock puppet, she's a most *charming* sock puppet...
Jul 13th 2004, 2:15 pm
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:02:17 -0500, in rec.travel.europe, Hank Mishkoff
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
... >Ah, one of yours, is she? I wondered if "Magda" was yet another Nazi sock
... >puppet and now it's been confirmed.
...
... I haven't been following this thread very closely, and I'm
... much to lazy to read all the preceding notes, so I don't
... know the context of your comment, but...
...
... As it happens, I was fortunate enough to have lunch with
... Magda last time I was in Paris -- and I have to tell you, if
... she's a sock puppet, she's a most *charming* sock puppet...
Hank, you have just ruined my camouflage !... ;-)
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
... >Ah, one of yours, is she? I wondered if "Magda" was yet another Nazi sock
... >puppet and now it's been confirmed.
...
... I haven't been following this thread very closely, and I'm
... much to lazy to read all the preceding notes, so I don't
... know the context of your comment, but...
...
... As it happens, I was fortunate enough to have lunch with
... Magda last time I was in Paris -- and I have to tell you, if
... she's a sock puppet, she's a most *charming* sock puppet...
Hank, you have just ruined my camouflage !... ;-)
Jul 13th 2004, 2:34 pm
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack -- Fabulation -
Colin McGarry wrote:
> "FransHals" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email protected]...
>
>>Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>>the relgion of peace?
>>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>>Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>
> It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
> of non existant atacks several times before.
> Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
> her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
> saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>
> So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
Great. Incidents like this where something is written on the body
usually turn out to have been faked. Remember Tawana Bradley?
Baldin
> "FransHals" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email protected]...
>
>>Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>>the relgion of peace?
>>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>>Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>
> It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
> of non existant atacks several times before.
> Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
> her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
> saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>
> So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
Great. Incidents like this where something is written on the body
usually turn out to have been faked. Remember Tawana Bradley?
Baldin
Jul 13th 2004, 2:34 pm
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train -TheyThoughtShe Was A Jew - She Isn't
"Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news
[email protected]...
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >
> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
> >
> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
devoted to
> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
"maghrebins,"
> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
_Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism who
are not Muslim?
> >> Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
> >
> > This article reports contradictions in the woman's story. It doesn't
report
> > the nationality or ethnicity of the attackers.
> No - it suggests that they didn't exist.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It reports questions. Period.
> > So what?
> So all the trumpeting about "The BBC changing the facts to suit its
> agenda", the "six Muslim attackers", the "antisemitic violence" and the
> "cowardly French" looks a bit empty, n'est-ce pas?
I haven't said anything about the "cowardly French," nor do I believe that
they are. However, if you deny that there has been a huge increase in
antisemitic violence in France that has paralled the increase in immigration
of Muslims from North Africa and, particularly, former French colonies, then
you have your head in the sand.
> Quite instructive, really.
Yes, quite, but not for the reason you think. People like validate the
necessity of Israel.
> J;
> --
> Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
> http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
news
[email protected]...> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >
> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
> >
> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
devoted to
> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
"maghrebins,"
> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
_Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism who
are not Muslim?
> >> Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
> >
> > This article reports contradictions in the woman's story. It doesn't
report
> > the nationality or ethnicity of the attackers.
> No - it suggests that they didn't exist.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It reports questions. Period.
> > So what?
> So all the trumpeting about "The BBC changing the facts to suit its
> agenda", the "six Muslim attackers", the "antisemitic violence" and the
> "cowardly French" looks a bit empty, n'est-ce pas?
I haven't said anything about the "cowardly French," nor do I believe that
they are. However, if you deny that there has been a huge increase in
antisemitic violence in France that has paralled the increase in immigration
of Muslims from North Africa and, particularly, former French colonies, then
you have your head in the sand.
> Quite instructive, really.
Yes, quite, but not for the reason you think. People like validate the
necessity of Israel.
> J;
> --
> Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
> http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
Jul 13th 2004, 3:57 pm
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - TheyThought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
"Earl Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BD1955CA.3F3F7%[email protected]...
> On 12/07/04 22:48, in article [email protected], "PTRAVEL"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently
reside
> > in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
> It should not be forgotten that a large number of French (Pieds Noirs)
were
> also "North Africans" and Christian. Indeed, several papers were
presented
> at a conference in Paris several weeks ago which dealt with the
> development of anti-Semitism in French Algeria by the French community
there
> and how it, in turn, influenced the "Arab" community (Berbers are not Arab
> but that is another issue). The population mix that exited North Africa
> at the end of the Algerian war is complex, includes Jews (Sephardics),
> the Pieds Noirs and the Muslim supporters of the France. Later
immigration
> was for economic reasons and these are Muslims.
This is interesting. I didn't know this, thank you.
> We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
> presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
> to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
> and its own
> Arabophobia.
So it is correct, then, to say that French Arabs cannot distinguish between
Jews and Israel. I also do not understand the connection between the
American invasion of Iraq and antisemitism. Do French Arabs believe that
George Bush, Dick Cheney et al. are Jewish?
> The only target available to the Arab underclass
> in France are the Jews.
How so? I think you mean to say, the only available target that the Arab
underclass elects are the Jews.
> This population may well be more anti-American than
> anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved
things
> in that direction.
That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services, i.e.
the French immigrant Arabs are highly antisemitic (and, almost certainly,
anti-American as well). The latter is understandable -- Bush and co. have
certainly not gone out of their way to win friends, either at home or
abroad. The former, however, is simply endemic in Arab culture, which has a
long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
> One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
> Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
> by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
> "I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
> Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
> the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
> Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
> Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
The Sephardics aren't as small a community in the US as you might think.
Most of the conservative Jews that I know in Los Angeles are Sephardim. In
New York, on the other hand, Ashkenazis are the dominant group.
> So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
> escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
> to the French.
I don't disagree. However, I do believe that a fundamental problem, with
which France will need to deal one way or another, is that antisemitism is
an intrinsic part of Arabic culture in most places.
> Earl
news:BD1955CA.3F3F7%[email protected]...
> On 12/07/04 22:48, in article [email protected], "PTRAVEL"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently
reside
> > in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
> It should not be forgotten that a large number of French (Pieds Noirs)
were
> also "North Africans" and Christian. Indeed, several papers were
presented
> at a conference in Paris several weeks ago which dealt with the
> development of anti-Semitism in French Algeria by the French community
there
> and how it, in turn, influenced the "Arab" community (Berbers are not Arab
> but that is another issue). The population mix that exited North Africa
> at the end of the Algerian war is complex, includes Jews (Sephardics),
> the Pieds Noirs and the Muslim supporters of the France. Later
immigration
> was for economic reasons and these are Muslims.
This is interesting. I didn't know this, thank you.
> We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
> presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
> to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
> and its own
> Arabophobia.
So it is correct, then, to say that French Arabs cannot distinguish between
Jews and Israel. I also do not understand the connection between the
American invasion of Iraq and antisemitism. Do French Arabs believe that
George Bush, Dick Cheney et al. are Jewish?
> The only target available to the Arab underclass
> in France are the Jews.
How so? I think you mean to say, the only available target that the Arab
underclass elects are the Jews.
> This population may well be more anti-American than
> anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved
things
> in that direction.
That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services, i.e.
the French immigrant Arabs are highly antisemitic (and, almost certainly,
anti-American as well). The latter is understandable -- Bush and co. have
certainly not gone out of their way to win friends, either at home or
abroad. The former, however, is simply endemic in Arab culture, which has a
long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
> One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
> Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
> by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
> "I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
> Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
> the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
> Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
> Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
The Sephardics aren't as small a community in the US as you might think.
Most of the conservative Jews that I know in Los Angeles are Sephardim. In
New York, on the other hand, Ashkenazis are the dominant group.
> So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
> escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
> to the French.
I don't disagree. However, I do believe that a fundamental problem, with
which France will need to deal one way or another, is that antisemitism is
an intrinsic part of Arabic culture in most places.
> Earl
Jul 13th 2004, 4:24 pm
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train -TheyThoughtShe Was A Jew - She Isn't
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0000, PTRAVEL wrote:
>
> "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>> >
>> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>> >
>> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
> devoted to
>> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
>> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
> "maghrebins,"
>> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
>
> Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
> _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism who
> are not Muslim?
Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
any bells?
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
>
> "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news
[email protected]...>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>> >
>> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>> >
>> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
> devoted to
>> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
>> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
> "maghrebins,"
>> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
>
> Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
> _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism who
> are not Muslim?
Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
any bells?
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
Jul 13th 2004, 4:26 pm
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train -TheyThoughtShe Was A Jew - She Isn't
"Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0000, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >
> > "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news[email protected]...
> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
> >> >
> >> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
> > devoted to
> >> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to
the
> >> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
> > "maghrebins,"
> >> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
> >>
> >> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
> >
> > Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
> > _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism
who
> > are not Muslim?
> Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
> but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
> cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
> any bells?
Well, given the conditions in contemporary France, I think it is far more
likely that North Africans (which is what most of the media reported) and/or
Moroccans, Tunisans and Algerians who _are_ antisemitic are more likely to
be Arab than Adolph Hitler.
> J;
> --
> Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
> http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
news
[email protected]...> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0000, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >
> > "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news
[email protected]...> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
> >> >
> >> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
> > devoted to
> >> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to
the
> >> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
> > "maghrebins,"
> >> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
> >>
> >> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
> >
> > Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
> > _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism
who
> > are not Muslim?
> Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
> but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
> cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
> any bells?
Well, given the conditions in contemporary France, I think it is far more
likely that North Africans (which is what most of the media reported) and/or
Moroccans, Tunisans and Algerians who _are_ antisemitic are more likely to
be Arab than Adolph Hitler.
> J;
> --
> Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
> http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
Jul 13th 2004, 4:28 pm
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:44:05 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
> In article <BD18BE40.21D43%[email protected]>, Jeremy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> In the meantime, as a little mental exercise, calculate the ratio of victims
>> of Muslim violence in the US and in France in the last few years.
>
> In the AP report, it stated that attacks on Jews in France in the first
> half of 2004 has already reached the total for 2003.
Forgotten about 9/11 already? Shame on you.
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
> In article <BD18BE40.21D43%[email protected]>, Jeremy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> In the meantime, as a little mental exercise, calculate the ratio of victims
>> of Muslim violence in the US and in France in the last few years.
>
> In the AP report, it stated that attacks on Jews in France in the first
> half of 2004 has already reached the total for 2003.
Forgotten about 9/11 already? Shame on you.
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
Jul 13th 2004, 4:43 pm
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train -TheyThoughtShe Was A Jew - She Isn't
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:26:01 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>
> "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0000, PTRAVEL wrote:
>> >
>> > "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news[email protected]...
>> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>> >> >
>> >> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
>> > devoted to
>> >> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to
> the
>> >> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
>> > "maghrebins,"
>> >> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>> >>
>> >> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
>> >
>> > Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
>> > _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism
> who
>> > are not Muslim?
>> Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
>> but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
>> cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
>> any bells?
>
> Well, given the conditions in contemporary France, I think it is far more
> likely that North Africans (which is what most of the media reported) and/or
> Moroccans, Tunisans and Algerians who _are_ antisemitic are more likely to
> be Arab than Adolph Hitler.
Yes, it's unlikely that a North African would be Adolph Hitler.
However, it seems that we are discussing a hypothetical situation, since
the attackers apparently did not exist: Maghrebian, black, or whatever.
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
>
> "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news
[email protected]...>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0000, PTRAVEL wrote:
>> >
>> > "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news
[email protected]...>> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>> >> >
>> >> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
>> > devoted to
>> >> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to
> the
>> >> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
>> > "maghrebins,"
>> >> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>> >>
>> >> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
>> >
>> > Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
>> > _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism
> who
>> > are not Muslim?
>> Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
>> but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
>> cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
>> any bells?
>
> Well, given the conditions in contemporary France, I think it is far more
> likely that North Africans (which is what most of the media reported) and/or
> Moroccans, Tunisans and Algerians who _are_ antisemitic are more likely to
> be Arab than Adolph Hitler.
Yes, it's unlikely that a North African would be Adolph Hitler.
However, it seems that we are discussing a hypothetical situation, since
the attackers apparently did not exist: Maghrebian, black, or whatever.
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG