PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
Dec 6th 2016, 10:42 pm
#1
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PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
See BBC Report on PISA results
The PISA ( Programme for International Student Assessment) tests run by the OECD have been published and much of the comment in the BBC report is (understandably) on the relatively low ranking of the UK. Indeed the UK trails Ireland in Reading (ranked 22/70 against 5/70) and Maths (ranked 27/70 against 18/70) although in Science the UK does better (ranked 15/70 against 19/70).
However, with rankings of 21, 29 and 23 in Reading, Maths and Science, Portugal punches above its weight in Southern Europe with an overall ranking higher than Spain, Italy or (gasp!) France!
Of course, tests test what they test, so you can't read too much into all this - but it's refreshing to see Portugal ahead of the wave for once!
The PISA ( Programme for International Student Assessment) tests run by the OECD have been published and much of the comment in the BBC report is (understandably) on the relatively low ranking of the UK. Indeed the UK trails Ireland in Reading (ranked 22/70 against 5/70) and Maths (ranked 27/70 against 18/70) although in Science the UK does better (ranked 15/70 against 19/70).
However, with rankings of 21, 29 and 23 in Reading, Maths and Science, Portugal punches above its weight in Southern Europe with an overall ranking higher than Spain, Italy or (gasp!) France!
Of course, tests test what they test, so you can't read too much into all this - but it's refreshing to see Portugal ahead of the wave for once!
Dec 7th 2016, 6:52 pm
#2
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
Portugal produces some smart people; but then fails to provide opportunities for them.
So they leave.
Then us thick estrangeros come to replace them...
So they leave.
Then us thick estrangeros come to replace them...
Dec 7th 2016, 8:12 pm
#3
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
Equally true, but they love us really.....
Dec 9th 2016, 8:26 am
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
It's a country of 10 million people with a difficult past ,history of being abandoned by it's elite,bullied by a dictator ,paid a pittance for it's workers,and yet,and yet.It produces some of the best brains in the world. Sadly they ARE in the World and not in Portugal.
Fortunately this 'unfortunate' trend is changing and the countries leaders are waking up to the need to retain their home grown excellence. The huge success of the IT conference in Lisbon showcased some of their success's. Portugal need's to blow it's own trumpet more often like this
Dec 9th 2016, 8:57 am
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
I have many Portuguese friends and relatives by marriage. The problem is that a combination of the "crise", the "principe" attitude I described before and the inheritance system means that many of their kids are cosseted to the extent that they are insulated from real life. The result is that I have nieces and nephews who are in their late 20's or 30's and still "students" or working on vanity projects, whilst their parents are struggling to make ends meet.
Whilst the kids are bright and personable, I cannot detect the slightest trace of ambition in them - and this is also true of many of the "Doutores" & "Engenheiros" I come across ..... I rarely find one who has that "spark" you would look for (or certainly I would look for) when building a team.
So it's not education that's the problem in this lovely country - it's something far more fundamental ......and i have to say I can't see what the solution is - apart from actually taking the famous "Jewish mother" route - telling them they must be twice as good to get half as far....
Whilst the kids are bright and personable, I cannot detect the slightest trace of ambition in them - and this is also true of many of the "Doutores" & "Engenheiros" I come across ..... I rarely find one who has that "spark" you would look for (or certainly I would look for) when building a team.
So it's not education that's the problem in this lovely country - it's something far more fundamental ......and i have to say I can't see what the solution is - apart from actually taking the famous "Jewish mother" route - telling them they must be twice as good to get half as far....
Dec 9th 2016, 9:22 am
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
I have many Portuguese friends and relatives by marriage. The problem is that a combination of the "crise", the "principe" attitude I described before and the inheritance system means that many of their kids are cosseted to the extent that they are insulated from real life. The result is that I have nieces and nephews who are in their late 20's or 30's and still "students" or working on vanity projects, whilst their parents are struggling to make ends meet.
Whilst the kids are bright and personable, I cannot detect the slightest trace of ambition in them - and this is also true of many of the "Doutores" & "Engenheiros" I come across ..... I rarely find one who has that "spark" you would look for (or certainly I would look for) when building a team.
So it's not education that's the problem in this lovely country - it's something far more fundamental ......and i have to say I can't see what the solution is - apart from actually taking the famous "Jewish mother" route - telling them they must be twice as good to get half as far....
Whilst the kids are bright and personable, I cannot detect the slightest trace of ambition in them - and this is also true of many of the "Doutores" & "Engenheiros" I come across ..... I rarely find one who has that "spark" you would look for (or certainly I would look for) when building a team.
So it's not education that's the problem in this lovely country - it's something far more fundamental ......and i have to say I can't see what the solution is - apart from actually taking the famous "Jewish mother" route - telling them they must be twice as good to get half as far....
Sounds like they are following the Dutch system that was in place when we first moved there 30 + yrs ago..The kids were allowed to swap courses when ever. Start a degree. then change to something else. All free . Art student? were given money to produce their work and galleries and business's had to take it .I think it was a backlash from the deep pain and austerity suffered by the parents generation after WW2. Finding Gas mean't they could indulge the next generation.
Finding Education is the indulgence of the Portuguese. maybe? Plus the desire to keep their children with them must be very strong. The Dutch we knew hadn't suffered the mass emigration of their kids and couldn't understand why we were in their country and why we were seemingly happy to have our kids go to a third country. We weren't happy about it at all. Economic circumstance's forced it upon us and then them. Dutch families stick together and they have luckily created enough work (because of their loose socialist policies.of spreading the wealth around).. This is not the case in Portugal.. similar in fact the the UK in many ways .. The wealth stays in and around the Capitol.
Ambition maybe is something that is created by the policies of the Government.It would never have been tolerated for a Dutch Government for instance to tell it's young people to go find a job abroad as the Portuguese government just did. and indeed the UK government did back in the early 80's
Dec 9th 2016, 9:54 am
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
Sounds like they are following the Dutch system that was in place when we first moved there 30 + yrs ago..The kids were allowed to swap courses when ever. Start a degree. then change to something else. All free . Art student? were given money to produce their work and galleries and business's had to take it .I think it was a backlash from the deep pain and austerity suffered by the parents generation after WW2. Finding Gas mean't they could indulge the next generation.
Finding Education is the indulgence of the Portuguese. maybe? Plus the desire to keep their children with them must be very strong. The Dutch we knew hadn't suffered the mass emigration of their kids and couldn't understand why we were in their country and why we were seemingly happy to have our kids go to a third country. We weren't happy about it at all. Economic circumstance's forced it upon us and then them. Dutch families stick together and they have luckily created enough work (because of their loose socialist policies.of spreading the wealth around).. This is not the case in Portugal.. similar in fact the the UK in many ways .. The wealth stays in and around the Capitol.
Ambition maybe is something that is created by the policies of the Government.It would never have been tolerated for a Dutch Government for instance to tell it's young people to go find a job abroad as the Portuguese government just did. and indeed the UK government did back in the early 80's
Finding Education is the indulgence of the Portuguese. maybe? Plus the desire to keep their children with them must be very strong. The Dutch we knew hadn't suffered the mass emigration of their kids and couldn't understand why we were in their country and why we were seemingly happy to have our kids go to a third country. We weren't happy about it at all. Economic circumstance's forced it upon us and then them. Dutch families stick together and they have luckily created enough work (because of their loose socialist policies.of spreading the wealth around).. This is not the case in Portugal.. similar in fact the the UK in many ways .. The wealth stays in and around the Capitol.
Ambition maybe is something that is created by the policies of the Government.It would never have been tolerated for a Dutch Government for instance to tell it's young people to go find a job abroad as the Portuguese government just did. and indeed the UK government did back in the early 80's
Portugal has a long (and sad) history of emigration (rather like Ireland) - most of my wife's family have made the "sacrificio", working abroad to make enough money to set them up when they return. With the economy in the doldrums, maybe that's why I find little ambition amongst those still here - the best have gone abroad already......
Dec 9th 2016, 3:12 pm
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Re: PISA tests - Portugal's ranking
I don't have you in-depth experience of the Dutch, but from several visits and working with them on various projects my catchword for them would be "control" - there appears to be a desire to keep everything under control. So the idea of kids going abroad and out of "control" wouldn't sit well.
Portugal has a long (and sad) history of emigration (rather like Ireland) - most of my wife's family have made the "sacrificio", working abroad to make enough money to set them up when they return. With the economy in the doldrums, maybe that's why I find little ambition amongst those still here - the best have gone abroad already......
Portugal has a long (and sad) history of emigration (rather like Ireland) - most of my wife's family have made the "sacrificio", working abroad to make enough money to set them up when they return. With the economy in the doldrums, maybe that's why I find little ambition amongst those still here - the best have gone abroad already......
