Heating Options

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Old Dec 20th 2017, 8:54 am
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Question Heating Options

Hi,
We will be renovating the family holiday house around the Caparica area to live in
Its 4 bedroom two-storey reinforced concrete construction

We plan to insulate with Celotex or equivalent and will have all new double-glazed windows and new doors. (Also, where to get these around the Lisbon area?)

Having lived here for years with just little electric oil radiators and a Galp gas heater we want some form of heating. Despite knowing how cold a house here can feel in the winter, I am from the North Sea, but my wife is Alfacinha and has a strange view of what cold is.

I'm just looking for alternatives with basic relative installation and running costs, availability and other comparisons

Eg free standing wood burners, gas central heating (will be bottled), air con, others?

I must say I loved the Fogo Montanha we had, but not the fact that I had to clean it out and fill it up and there was no timer - it would have been fine if I didnt have to do it 1st thing before and after work whilst dealing with small child but it became a PITA, and no timer either. Also, we would need various around the house and what about upstairs? But p'raps I'm being too much Engineer and too little Romantic

Air con seems like a good dual purpose solution, but is it really expensive to install/run?

Do people have 'normal' central heating with gas boiler and radiators?

What do people use?

Thanks
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 9:36 am
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Default Re: Heating Options

We have a townhouse in the East Algarve which had gas central heating already installed when we bought it. Runs off a ROCA boiler. Very efficient and quickly warms the rooms so don't need it to be running for hours. Wouldn't be without it.

J
Originally Posted by Midgo View Post
Hi,
We will be renovating the family holiday house around the Caparica area to live in
Its 4 bedroom two-storey reinforced concrete construction

We plan to insulate with Celotex or equivalent and will have all new double-glazed windows and new doors. (Also, where to get these around the Lisbon area?)

Having lived here for years with just little electric oil radiators and a Galp gas heater we want some form of heating. Despite knowing how cold a house here can feel in the winter, I am from the North Sea, but my wife is Alfacinha and has a strange view of what cold is.

I'm just looking for alternatives with basic relative installation and running costs, availability and other comparisons

Eg free standing wood burners, gas central heating (will be bottled), air con, others?

I must say I loved the Fogo Montanha we had, but not the fact that I had to clean it out and fill it up and there was no timer - it would have been fine if I didnt have to do it 1st thing before and after work whilst dealing with small child but it became a PITA, and no timer either. Also, we would need various around the house and what about upstairs? But p'raps I'm being too much Engineer and too little Romantic

Air con seems like a good dual purpose solution, but is it really expensive to install/run?

Do people have 'normal' central heating with gas boiler and radiators?

What do people use?

Thanks
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 9:49 am
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Default Re: Heating Options

Thanks,

That would be great to have, anyone know how easy it is to get that kind of installation done around Lisbon (I have this idea that Algarve is much easier to source 'international' solutions)

Any other alternatives / opinions?
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 3:06 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

When we built our house we made the mistake of not installing a wood fired central heating system as we have our own wood supply. We do have a stand alone wood burner that does heat our open plan living area(dinning, living room & office) but it's not enough to pass to the bedrooms & kitchen. We do have Air con in the bedrooms and kitchen and it is for me a must in the summer to get a good sleep! The air con obviously heats as well and it's great for putting almost instant heat into a room, it's not however something we leave on all the time, more just when rooms are being used and switch it off while sleeping so this way it's far from expensive. Inverter Air con is apparently the most efficient electrical appliance way of heating. Our house has "capoto" insulation on the outside which was a great investment.

capoto, not sure of name in English: https://www.weber.com.pt/isolamento-...m-classic.html
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 3:53 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

It's not necessarily cheap to install but a wood pellet burning boiler linked to radiators is the cheapest to run & the most convenient to live with (IMO)

I also have a diesel fired back up boiler but it's several times more expensive to run than the pellet burning boiler & noisy as hell compared to the pretty much silent pellet boiler.

My pellet burner takes no more than 5 minutes once or twice a week to clean & pellets are available everywhere.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 4:02 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Midgo View Post
Hi,
We will be renovating the family holiday house around the Caparica area to live in
Its 4 bedroom two-storey reinforced concrete construction

We plan to insulate with Celotex or equivalent and will have all new double-glazed windows and new doors. (Also, where to get these around the Lisbon area?)

Having lived here for years with just little electric oil radiators and a Galp gas heater we want some form of heating. Despite knowing how cold a house here can feel in the winter, I am from the North Sea, but my wife is Alfacinha and has a strange view of what cold is.

I'm just looking for alternatives with basic relative installation and running costs, availability and other comparisons

Eg free standing wood burners, gas central heating (will be bottled), air con, others?

I must say I loved the Fogo Montanha we had, but not the fact that I had to clean it out and fill it up and there was no timer - it would have been fine if I didnt have to do it 1st thing before and after work whilst dealing with small child but it became a PITA, and no timer either. Also, we would need various around the house and what about upstairs? But p'raps I'm being too much Engineer and too little Romantic

Air con seems like a good dual purpose solution, but is it really expensive to install/run?

Do people have 'normal' central heating with gas boiler and radiators?

What do people use?

Thanks

Air Con is pretty easy to install and since it's running on a heat pump pretty cheap to run if you have a good heat pump of course


I can also recommend this for a bathroom but haven't had experience in other rooms https://www.welltherm.co.uk/


Of course nothing beats a decent wood burning stove but that's more a bonus and depends on the layout of the house etc. if you can use as central heating. I think having a mix is always good.

Last edited by Moses2013; Dec 20th 2017 at 4:06 pm.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 4:27 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

Modern Air Conditioning systems offer heating as well as cooling by reversing the heat exchange process. It is also extremely energy efficient. Combining it with solar panels and storage unit (battery system) can save even more. Depending on how cold you expect it to be in wintertime this, combined with a pellet burner or other system might be a good choice.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 4:50 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Midgo View Post
Hi,


Having lived here for years with just little electric oil radiators and a Galp gas heater we want some form of heating. Despite knowing how cold a house here can feel in the winter, I am from the North Sea, but my wife is Alfacinha and has a strange view of what cold is.

I'm just looking for alternatives with basic relative installation and running costs, availability and other comparisons

Eg free standing wood burners, gas central heating (will be bottled), air con, others?

I must say I loved the Fogo Montanha we had, but not the fact that I had to clean it out and fill it up and there was no timer - it would have been fine if I didnt have to do it 1st thing before and after work whilst dealing with small child but it became a PITA, and no timer either. Also, we would need various around the house and what about upstairs? But p'raps I'm being too much Engineer and too little Romantic

Air con seems like a good dual purpose solution, but is it really expensive to install/run?

Do people have 'normal' central heating with gas boiler and radiators?

What do people use?

Thanks
Same problem here ! I sleep with windows open my wife must have over 20ºC constant ...We have air con and a wood fireplace. Air Con great for quick burst of heat but suffers from major disadvantage that once you turn it off warmth is lost almost immediately. Wood fire a great supplement and logs generally pretty cheap.
Alternative we have had in the past are electric storage heaters, great , stable warmth and today not such bulky lumps as in the past and electricity in Portugal is reasonable compared to some other countries.
Yes people do have normal central heating with boilers and radiators
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 4:51 pm
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We have a 3 bed villa, typical open plan ground floor.
It is currently 23 degrees feels warm as toast.
Only heating a wood burning fire.
Modern construction makes a big difference.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 6:57 pm
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Thanks, lots of ideas to think about.
We had a house on the waterfront in North Essex, so right on the chilly North Sea in winter, and it had 1970's hot blown air heating (from a gas fired heat exchanger). It was really great, instant heat everywhere and I really liked it. Perhaps the two way air con would be like that?
I do like the idea of the electric air-con solution I must say, so what are the big disadvantages of that?
We also already have the big fireplace in the living room to go with it.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 7:02 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Midgo View Post
Thanks, lots of ideas to think about.
We had a house on the waterfront in North Essex, so right on the chilly North Sea in winter, and it had 1970's hot blown air heating (from a gas fired heat exchanger). It was really great, instant heat everywhere and I really liked it. Perhaps the two way air con would be like that?
I do like the idea of the electric air-con solution I must say, so what are the big disadvantages of that?
We also already have the big fireplace in the living room to go with it.
Have had experience in two apartments now - one central system with independent room switching and one a separate unit in each room. The latter easy to install compared to central ducting but both great in use except for the issue of the room(s) cooling down quite quickly when switched off. In both apartments have good fire place in lounge and use it in the evenings on really cold days - much more socialable and as it warms chimney breast progressively warms next door !!

Last edited by Loafing Along; Dec 20th 2017 at 7:06 pm.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 7:24 pm
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Default Re: Heating Options

This area isn't actually that cold in winter - ave. min 8C, ave. max 14 C in January (that's Lisbon but must be not too far off those of Caprica area).
Its just with no heating when you are at home for any length of time it gets very uncomfortable.
It's amazing how many people find their first winter in Portugal (Lisbon, at least) their coldest ever, despite the relatively mild temperatures.
But why do they leave the café doors open tho?

I could control the air-con usage - we plan to insulate and put all new windows and doors.
Isn't it better to insulate on the inside for winter heating to avoid heating the thermal mass of the house structure?
I also like the idea of leaving the option of solar boost - could this be added on at a later date?

I actually really liked that 1970's hot air system in that it got cold when you turn it off, very practical when you go out and overnight would be no problem with these temperatures and good bedding, especially if you don't go to bed cold.

I am definitely swaying towards air-con units plus fireplace / wood burner.

I will have to talk to management.

Last edited by Midgo; Dec 20th 2017 at 7:26 pm.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 7:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Midgo View Post
This area isn't actually that cold in winter - ave. min 8C, ave. max 14 C in January (that's Lisbon but must be not too far off those of Caprica area).
Its just with no heating when you are at home for any length of time it gets very uncomfortable.
It's amazing how many people find their first winter in Portugal (Lisbon, at least) their coldest ever, despite the relatively mild temperatures.
But why do they leave the café doors open tho?
Algarve - just in from dog walk , a frightful 10º C now. Wore - thick shirt pullover, anorak and wooly cap... Inside aircon heating going in one room / office and fire roaring in the lounge. It's brass monkey weather and I used to live in Germany Baden-Wurtenburg ,before that Norway typically -10ºC in winter and sometimes -15ºC but "dry cold".There properties built to cope here good construction but somehow just don't seem warm inside. Anything below 12ºC or so seems dreadful.
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Old Dec 21st 2017, 8:44 am
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Default Re: Heating Options

So many options; in a changing world it's tough to make decisions about energy use.

1; of course, insulation, tight doors and windows.

2; heat recovery ventilation [google it]. This is very helpful all year, keeps your interior fresh and dry with minimum energy loss. Helps with allergens too!

3; depending on what else you're doing, underfloor water based heat loops.
While it's a lot of work and expense, once they're installed you can connect any heat source [or multiple heat sources] with minimum fuss and expense.

Wood, pellet, solar, gas, electric, or whatever system is developed next.

If you add a big heat store tank, you can use off peak electricity [with heat pump, or just resistance coils], or a log boiler, and/or solar heat collectors.
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Old Dec 21st 2017, 10:33 am
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Default Re: Heating Options

I have also lived in Germany (-17C one night) and houses and heating in the North of Europe are just much better so I am much warmer up there in winter.
Also, I'm from the dryest place in the UK, far less annual rainfall than Lisboa

Liveaboard - you are awakening the lapsed chemical engineer in me!
My German friends have a house with that system in, I think it is almost compulsory in new builds there? Large initial investment though

Changing world for sure, that makes me think even more of electric air-con with fires / burners and I would relish making some sort of solar water preheat system, at some stage.

I now have more ideas and a better picture, thanks
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