Heating Options

Reply

Old Jan 3rd 2018, 5:10 pm
  #31  
BE Forum Addict
 
liveaboard's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,828
liveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by MrBife View Post
Back boiler connected direct to UFH is no good as the temperature of the water is too high.


Carpets on top of UFH are not good as they stop the heat from warming the room.
Standard manifolds for hydronic radiant heat systems have a bypass thermostat; simple and reliable, it only lets hot water into the manifold to maintain the preset temperature. They're made to attach to standard boilers, which run at 60 + degrees.


Actually, you can have carpets; while not ideal from an engineering standpoint, they have less effect that you would expect. in practice, the carpet heats up and becomes the radiator. Our floors are 70% covered by carpets.

You can use parket flooring too; some types may be used with underfloor heat. You need a special underlayer that conducts heat.
liveaboard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3rd 2018, 9:53 pm
  #32  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Midgo's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 80
Midgo is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Heating Options

Sorry, I'm just exploring different concepts / ideas (and having fun) ....

The below ideas to be used as a boost for air con upstairs, as nice and simple solutions without any extra water circuits (especially inside flue), and no taking up of floors etc:

What about the flue of a wood/pellet etc burner that goes straight up through the downstairs ceiling to the room above, where it is encased in a box with an inlet air vent from room at bottom and heated room air outlet higher up (simple air-air heat exchanger)? Hot outlet at top is not ideal tho...

SO how about just a nice shiny exposed 'straight up and out' flue pipe (with a wire guard) going up through the downstairs ceiling and then up through the upstairs room and out through the roof (for radiant and convected heat in this case). I really like the 'minimalism' of this

Also, what about simple (closable) grills in lower ceiling / upper floor to allow hot room air to move upstairs? Again simple.

Any big cons, No-No's etc with those types of ideas?

Also, presumably if you extract too much heat from flue you can get problems with updraught and condensation too?

EDIT: There isnt actually hardly any loft space to insulate (sorry, Essex grammar there), just in the very apex, under 2m wide. The idea will be to affix foam insulation to the inside of the sloping roof ceilings. These are reinforced concrete (tiles on top, but not sure how much the tiles do in terms of rain protection given that its concrete underneath them).

Last edited by Midgo; Jan 3rd 2018 at 9:59 pm.
Midgo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4th 2018, 5:47 am
  #33  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Mar 2014
Location: East Algarve
Posts: 231
BillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond reputeBillBullock has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Midgo View Post
Sorry, I'm just exploring different concepts / ideas (and having fun) ....

The below ideas to be used as a boost for air con upstairs, as nice and simple solutions without any extra water circuits (especially inside flue), and no taking up of floors etc:

What about the flue of a wood/pellet etc burner that goes straight up through the downstairs ceiling to the room above, where it is encased in a box with an inlet air vent from room at bottom and heated room air outlet higher up (simple air-air heat exchanger)? Hot outlet at top is not ideal tho...

SO how about just a nice shiny exposed 'straight up and out' flue pipe (with a wire guard) going up through the downstairs ceiling and then up through the upstairs room and out through the roof (for radiant and convected heat in this case). I really like the 'minimalism' of this

Also, what about simple (closable) grills in lower ceiling / upper floor to allow hot room air to move upstairs? Again simple.

Any big cons, No-No's etc with those types of ideas?

Also, presumably if you extract too much heat from flue you can get problems with updraught and condensation too?

EDIT: There isnt actually hardly any loft space to insulate (sorry, Essex grammar there), just in the very apex, under 2m wide. The idea will be to affix foam insulation to the inside of the sloping roof ceilings. These are reinforced concrete (tiles on top, but not sure how much the tiles do in terms of rain protection given that its concrete underneath them).
We have a wood-burning stove in our sitting room which backs on to our bedroom in our old folks' bungalow. Our fitted wardrobe becomes one of the warmest rooms in the house when the stove has been on all evening. Open the wardrobe doors for more heat or take your warm clothes out in the morning and put them straight on!

Seriously though, make sure any heaters are fitted to interior walls, not external walls, and use flues to heat any upstairs bedroom where you can.
BillBullock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4th 2018, 11:00 am
  #34  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Midgo's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 80
Midgo is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Heating Options

I have been warned about potential pitfalls of taking heat out of flu by a mate at home

I like the idea of a warm cupboard where I can hide from family life every now and then

I did not say that
Midgo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4th 2018, 12:33 pm
  #35  
BE Forum Addict
 
liveaboard's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,828
liveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

If you cool the flu too much, you can lose the updraft; however, in practice this is pretty rare, unless you use a long water jacket.
The temp leaving the burner will be around 500C. at 100C, there will still be plenty of draft.

Some modern high efficiency burners extract more heat to the room and have a lower outlet temperature; they usually have fans and water based heat exchangers, double insulated flus, thick instruction books, and very high prices.

You can heat in any of those ways, the mild climate here means you rarely need much.
Thick insulation is good, but if you don't have the space, even 30mm will do the job.
Double glazed windows are good; here's a tip.
Most windows never get opened, so why spend the money on ones that open?
Half my windows are one piece of double glazing, set in a thin wooden frame attached to the concrete.
More light, looks better, less cost, easier to clean.
liveaboard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5th 2018, 6:56 am
  #36  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Midgo's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 80
Midgo is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Heating Options

Just to say thanks very much for all of your help,


We will go for:
  • External insulation (inside of house so full of nooks and crannies and its an efficient solution despite not being able to hide elec. and pipes etc behind interior insulation, etc)
  • All new windows and doors
  • Pellet burners downstairs (ease of installation, we were impressed to see them working, mobile, etc) with the big fireplace already there
  • Air-con upstairs (ease of installation, hopefully not needed much, selectable, also for cooling every now and then, etc)
Midgo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5th 2018, 11:06 am
  #37  
BE Forum Addict
 
liveaboard's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,828
liveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

Sounds sensible to me.
Let us know how you get on; some of those external insulation works go bad and the cladding breaks away, so make sure you take a look at a previous job or two your people have done.

They use special fiber mesh to reinforce the thin outer concrete layer against the foam board, but it seems to me that steel mesh bolted through the insulation to the bricks would make the whole thing more robust.
liveaboard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5th 2018, 11:37 am
  #38  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Jul 2017
Location: Algarve
Posts: 350
Pilou is a jewel in the roughPilou is a jewel in the roughPilou is a jewel in the roughPilou is a jewel in the roughPilou is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: Heating Options

We have a beautiful new pellet Burner (Piazzetta P 158T) in our house in Spain. It is easy to use, the 50m² living heats up easily. We use 10 kilo per day.
BUT, we now have a kind of wind in the house. A pellet stove needs a lot of air and this air comes from the hall and the air is less warm. We don't like that at all! We got a stiff neck after 1 day.
We are disappointed. So, be careful.

For our house in the Algarve we bought a nice mobile round gas heater. The living is small (25m²) and it heats up in 10 minutes. During the day we open the windows 15 minutes to get new air inside.
Pilou is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5th 2018, 12:07 pm
  #39  
BE Forum Addict
 
liveaboard's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,828
liveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

modern high efficiency burners have 2 tubes to the outside, 1 for drawing in air and 1 for expelling exhaust.
If your house is [will be] tight and cozy without drafts, that's what you need if using a burner type of heating system.
liveaboard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6th 2018, 11:40 am
  #40  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Midgo's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 80
Midgo is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by liveaboard View Post
Sounds sensible to me.
Let us know how you get on; some of those external insulation works go bad and the cladding breaks away, so make sure you take a look at a previous job or two your people have done.

They use special fiber mesh to reinforce the thin outer concrete layer against the foam board, but it seems to me that steel mesh bolted through the insulation to the bricks would make the whole thing more robust.
Have made sure that we are looking into the cladding people especially carefully

I don't think that metal is necessarily more robust than fibre in a composite with cement, although I don't know the details of what the fibre is. It also wont rust (water will get in even if it is only vapour passing through the cement) and will be much lighter
But I am biased as I research marine (fibre) composite materials and am forever extolling their virtues over steel and aluminium

Last edited by Midgo; Feb 6th 2018 at 11:44 am.
Midgo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6th 2018, 11:54 am
  #41  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Midgo's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 80
Midgo is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Pilou View Post
We have a beautiful new pellet Burner (Piazzetta P 158T) in our house in Spain. It is easy to use, the 50m² living heats up easily. We use 10 kilo per day.
BUT, we now have a kind of wind in the house. A pellet stove needs a lot of air and this air comes from the hall and the air is less warm. We don't like that at all! We got a stiff neck after 1 day.
We are disappointed. So, be careful.

For our house in the Algarve we bought a nice mobile round gas heater. The living is small (25m²) and it heats up in 10 minutes. During the day we open the windows 15 minutes to get new air inside.

We will put in ventilation

Anyway, as someone who grew up on, and mostly in, the North Sea all year round, I will be happy for any refreshing draft as my Portuguese wife cranks the heating up to levels that would have Scotty of the Enterprise in complete panic

And please don't get me going on 'correntes de ar'
Midgo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6th 2018, 12:10 pm
  #42  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: New Jersey, USA - Porches, Algarve
Posts: 88
zoff is just really nicezoff is just really nicezoff is just really nicezoff is just really nicezoff is just really nicezoff is just really nicezoff is just really nicezoff is just really nice
Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Midgo View Post

And please don't get me going on 'correntes de ar'
"Correntes de ar" to my PT parents where the cause of many ills
zoff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6th 2018, 12:17 pm
  #43  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Midgo's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 80
Midgo is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Heating Options

Sometimes I think that my Portuguese family must have been taught that Chernobyl was just up the road
Midgo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6th 2018, 2:44 pm
  #44  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 52
Mac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond reputeMac and Mabel has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

Originally Posted by Pilou View Post
For our house in the Algarve we bought a nice mobile round gas heater. The living is small (25m²) and it heats up in 10 minutes. During the day we open the windows 15 minutes to get new air inside.
If you're using the type of mobile heater that houses a gas bottle, just be wary of damp and mould. We had that problem in 2 houses before we worked out it was down to the gas heater. Each kg of gas burned equals 1 litre of water vapour released into the room. We stopped using the heater and ta-da, no more mould!
Mac and Mabel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 7th 2018, 7:19 am
  #45  
BE Forum Addict
 
liveaboard's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,828
liveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Heating Options

Steel in concrete is protected from rust chemically; the main benefit would be that steel wire would hold anchoring pins, and fiber just wouldn't.

It's just an idea, I'm not really suggesting altering the prevailing technique. The guys that do the work will do it how they know how to do it.

I've watched it done a few times [I've been attracted to building sites since I was 8], and I'm just amazed that it doesn't always flake off!
But it doesn't usually, and I don't know a lot about masonry work so I shouldn't have ever said anything in the first place.
Too late! I already did.
liveaboard is offline  
Reply With Quote

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement