Heating Options
 

Hi,
We will be renovating the family holiday house around the Caparica area to live in
Its 4 bedroom two-storey reinforced concrete construction

We plan to insulate with Celotex or equivalent and will have all new double-glazed windows and new doors. (Also, where to get these around the Lisbon area?)

Having lived here for years with just little electric oil radiators and a Galp gas heater we want some form of heating. Despite knowing how cold a house here can feel in the winter, I am from the North Sea, but my wife is Alfacinha and has a strange view of what cold is.

I'm just looking for alternatives with basic relative installation and running costs, availability and other comparisons

Eg free standing wood burners, gas central heating (will be bottled), air con, others?

I must say I loved the Fogo Montanha we had, but not the fact that I had to clean it out and fill it up and there was no timer - it would have been fine if I didnt have to do it 1st thing before and after work whilst dealing with small child but it became a PITA, and no timer either. Also, we would need various around the house and what about upstairs? But p'raps I'm being too much Engineer and too little Romantic

Air con seems like a good dual purpose solution, but is it really expensive to install/run?

Do people have 'normal' central heating with gas boiler and radiators?

What do people use?

Thanks

Re: Heating Options
 

We have a townhouse in the East Algarve which had gas central heating already installed when we bought it. Runs off a ROCA boiler. Very efficient and quickly warms the rooms so don't need it to be running for hours. Wouldn't be without it.

J

Re: Heating Options
 

Thanks,

That would be great to have, anyone know how easy it is to get that kind of installation done around Lisbon (I have this idea that Algarve is much easier to source 'international' solutions)

Any other alternatives / opinions?

Re: Heating Options
 

When we built our house we made the mistake of not installing a wood fired central heating system as we have our own wood supply. We do have a stand alone wood burner that does heat our open plan living area(dinning, living room & office) but it's not enough to pass to the bedrooms & kitchen. We do have Air con in the bedrooms and kitchen and it is for me a must in the summer to get a good sleep! The air con obviously heats as well and it's great for putting almost instant heat into a room, it's not however something we leave on all the time, more just when rooms are being used and switch it off while sleeping so this way it's far from expensive. Inverter Air con is apparently the most efficient electrical appliance way of heating. Our house has "capoto" insulation on the outside which was a great investment.

capoto, not sure of name in English: https://www.weber.com.pt/isolamento-...m-classic.html

Re: Heating Options
 

It's not necessarily cheap to install but a wood pellet burning boiler linked to radiators is the cheapest to run & the most convenient to live with (IMO)

I also have a diesel fired back up boiler but it's several times more expensive to run than the pellet burning boiler & noisy as hell compared to the pretty much silent pellet boiler.

My pellet burner takes no more than 5 minutes once or twice a week to clean & pellets are available everywhere.

Re: Heating Options
 

Air Con is pretty easy to install and since it's running on a heat pump pretty cheap to run if you have a good heat pump of course


I can also recommend this for a bathroom but haven't had experience in other rooms https://www.welltherm.co.uk/


Of course nothing beats a decent wood burning stove but that's more a bonus and depends on the layout of the house etc. if you can use as central heating. I think having a mix is always good.

Re: Heating Options
 

Modern Air Conditioning systems offer heating as well as cooling by reversing the heat exchange process. It is also extremely energy efficient. Combining it with solar panels and storage unit (battery system) can save even more. Depending on how cold you expect it to be in wintertime this, combined with a pellet burner or other system might be a good choice.

Re: Heating Options
 

Same problem here ! I sleep with windows open my wife must have over 20ºC constant ...We have air con and a wood fireplace. Air Con great for quick burst of heat but suffers from major disadvantage that once you turn it off warmth is lost almost immediately. Wood fire a great supplement and logs generally pretty cheap.
Alternative we have had in the past are electric storage heaters, great , stable warmth and today not such bulky lumps as in the past and electricity in Portugal is reasonable compared to some other countries.
Yes people do have normal central heating with boilers and radiators

Re: Heating Options
 

We have a 3 bed villa, typical open plan ground floor.
It is currently 23 degrees feels warm as toast.
Only heating a wood burning fire.
Modern construction makes a big difference.

Re: Heating Options
 

Thanks, lots of ideas to think about.
We had a house on the waterfront in North Essex, so right on the chilly North Sea in winter, and it had 1970's hot blown air heating (from a gas fired heat exchanger). It was really great, instant heat everywhere and I really liked it. Perhaps the two way air con would be like that?
I do like the idea of the electric air-con solution I must say, so what are the big disadvantages of that?
We also already have the big fireplace in the living room to go with it.

Re: Heating Options
 

Have had experience in two apartments now - one central system with independent room switching and one a separate unit in each room. The latter easy to install compared to central ducting but both great in use except for the issue of the room(s) cooling down quite quickly when switched off. In both apartments have good fire place in lounge and use it in the evenings on really cold days - much more socialable and as it warms chimney breast progressively warms next door !!

Re: Heating Options
 

This area isn't actually that cold in winter - ave. min 8C, ave. max 14 C in January (that's Lisbon but must be not too far off those of Caprica area).
Its just with no heating when you are at home for any length of time it gets very uncomfortable.
It's amazing how many people find their first winter in Portugal (Lisbon, at least) their coldest ever, despite the relatively mild temperatures.
But why do they leave the café doors open tho? :lol:

I could control the air-con usage - we plan to insulate and put all new windows and doors.
Isn't it better to insulate on the inside for winter heating to avoid heating the thermal mass of the house structure?
I also like the idea of leaving the option of solar boost - could this be added on at a later date?

I actually really liked that 1970's hot air system in that it got cold when you turn it off, very practical when you go out and overnight would be no problem with these temperatures and good bedding, especially if you don't go to bed cold.

I am definitely swaying towards air-con units plus fireplace / wood burner.

I will have to talk to management.

Re: Heating Options
 

Algarve - just in from dog walk , a frightful 10º C now. Wore - thick shirt pullover, anorak and wooly cap... Inside aircon heating going in one room / office and fire roaring in the lounge. It's brass monkey weather and I used to live in Germany Baden-Wurtenburg ,before that Norway typically -10ºC in winter and sometimes -15ºC but "dry cold".There properties built to cope here good construction but somehow just don't seem warm inside. Anything below 12ºC or so seems dreadful.

Re: Heating Options
 

So many options; in a changing world it's tough to make decisions about energy use.

1; of course, insulation, tight doors and windows.

2; heat recovery ventilation [google it]. This is very helpful all year, keeps your interior fresh and dry with minimum energy loss. Helps with allergens too!

3; depending on what else you're doing, underfloor water based heat loops.
While it's a lot of work and expense, once they're installed you can connect any heat source [or multiple heat sources] with minimum fuss and expense.

Wood, pellet, solar, gas, electric, or whatever system is developed next.

If you add a big heat store tank, you can use off peak electricity [with heat pump, or just resistance coils], or a log boiler, and/or solar heat collectors.

Re: Heating Options
 

I have also lived in Germany (-17C one night) and houses and heating in the North of Europe are just much better so I am much warmer up there in winter.
Also, I'm from the dryest place in the UK, far less annual rainfall than Lisboa

Liveaboard - you are awakening the lapsed chemical engineer in me!
My German friends have a house with that system in, I think it is almost compulsory in new builds there? Large initial investment though

Changing world for sure, that makes me think even more of electric air-con with fires / burners and I would relish making some sort of solar water preheat system, at some stage.

I now have more ideas and a better picture, thanks

Re: Heating Options
 

We've been in Azeitao, Setubal for 3 years now. House is about 20 years old, double glazing and ok insulation.

We primarily use the aircons, which we have in most rooms, as heating when it's not too cold. Heatpumps give a good return, you get 3-4 times the heat compared to the input electricity (which doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics though it sounds like it does).

But the aircons struggle when the temperatures are lower, the cool parts outside will ice up, so they have to go into a defrost mode to keep the coils clear. And the efficiency drops off.

Luckily, the house has mains gas and had central heating with radiators already when we moved in, the boiler also does on demand hot water. We'd tended not to use this for heating because it didn't seem to work very well, but recently replaced the boiler and it works great now. Really nice to have for the couple of months here when it can get down towards freezing.

Not sure I'd want to use bottled gas for heating? I would imagine that's ok for cooking, but how often do you need to change bottles if you're running it on long stints for heating, especially if doing your hot water too.

I've heard wood pellet burners are cheapest option to run, but expensive to install, especially if you have the feed mechanism, someone told me around 6k EUR.

If I was building or renovating, I'd be tempted to go for really top notch insulation, enough that I could just use aircon units to heat, and maybe a wood burner for living room when it gets very cold.

Re: Heating Options
 

Thanks
Sounds like air con and wood burner is becoming a (general) consensus, although not the only option

Re: Heating Options
 

It depends on your preferences and budget; retrofitting underfloor heat is not a small job!
We wanted to demolish most of the interior walls, so we were already in pretty deep.
The entire floor was jackhammered into rubble and removed; then another 20cm was dug out before pouring new concrete, then insulation, then more concrete with the floor loops cast in. concrete pillars support a monster steel beam that replaces the bearing walls we took out.
new doors, windows, electrics, plumbing, kitchen, data wires... basically, we supported the habitation license on posts and built a new house under it.

the underfloor heat has 3 advantages;
once installed, it doesn't take up any of your living space.
It works at a more moderate temperature than other systems, which is great for efficiency if you use non-fuel heat [solar or heat pump].
The heat is very evenly distributed.

On a new build, I think it's nuts to not install floor loops, since the cost would be very small during construction. But on a renovation, it's a pretty expensive option.

Re: Heating Options
 

As captainflack clearly explains you can consider a heat pump of some sort. I think it is the ideal for a location as Caparica which displays mild temperatures, but can nevertheless get very cold uncomfortable, being a wet cold and the concrete houses sucking the produced heat. If you can put some underfloor heating system which is not solely running on gas or electricity that is your best option, meaning you could have some form of water/soil, or water/air heat pump. Daikin´s Altherma is a option, but others are available. This is a sort of an air con but using underfloor units. Sometimes you have to have some outdoor space to bury the heat exchangers. It is never a bad idea to have wood burners (salamandras are by far the most efficient ). Ah, in my oipinion for concrte houses I would select inside isolation

Re: Heating Options
 

Thanks all

Underfloor would be good, but the investment is not in our plans. Also, upstairs only has thin wooden floors.

The '3 - 4 times more efficient than electric heating' has been bugging me (since I know that resistance electric is 100% efficient - If we ignore the efficiency of the power station), until I found this,

'If you live in an area that does not have temperature extremes, then a heat pump can save you 30 percent to 40% off heating and cooling costs associated with a comparable electric system. Since heat pumps are designed to move heat instead of create it, they are usually four times more efficient than electric heaters. For less moderate climates where temperatures can drop more dramatically, electrical systems are more reliable, and can provide more heat over a given area than a heat pump. However, heat pumps dehumidify the air much better than electric systems. This can be a benefit in humid climates but a negative in dryer climates.'

Humidity has always been a PITA for me in Portugal in winter (apparent temps and spore allergies) , another plus for air con (when I say this I mean heat pumps)

Above all I think good insulation is the no. 1 priority

Re: Heating Options
 

All air conditioners are heat pumps; although the term is used to describe the reverse cycle ones that also provide heat.
The optimistic figures are always used, 3-400%. Maybe, every now and then, under ideal conditions, those numbers are achieved. As you interior gets warmer and the exterior gets colder, efficiency drops.

There are some alternate systems for extracting heat; ground loops [incorrectly and falsely advertised as 'geothermal heating'], solar collectors [work great on sunny days when you don't need much heat], but whether these systems merit their high installation cost is doubtful.
One thing is sure; sales people work on commission. My experience is that they don't use numbers for engineering, they use numbers for profit.

For reducing humidity while cooling, air-conditioning does a great job. The unit condenses the water from the air and you can see it drain out.

For dehumidifying while heating, pretty much all you need to do is heat 5 degrees or more. The heated air is able to hold more water and although the actual water in it is not decreased, the lowered relative humidity is all you need. Any heating system is equal for dehumidifying.



A common problem here in Portugal is uninsulated outer walls, because they will stay cold [put your hand on one!].
Like a cold drink on a warm day, condensation will form on it. Also inside cupboards and closets attached to it. Mold will form, especially in closed spaces and bathrooms [where the humidity is always higher].
The best way to deal with the problem is to insulate; the popular solution in this mild climate is to plate the exterior of the house with ridged foam sheets, and plaster over it with cement to give the house the traditional Mediterranean look again.
The masonry becomes a heat buffer, which can be advantageous from an energy conservation point of view, absorbing heat in day and releasing it at night.
A full insulation and vapor seal [as is normal in northern Europe] would be better, but it's just not done in Portugal. As a refit, it could be done by insulating on the inside of your house, with interior plasterboard. That would give a nice finish, but you lose interior space, all the wiring needs to be moved or replaced [that can be a good thing of course], and so on.

With the exterior insulation there will be heat loss at the foundation, around the windows and doors, and at the eves of the roof.
Roof or ceiling insulation has to be done too or it's no use. Under floor insulation would be a good thing, but is a huge and disruptive job and not as vital. However, a cold floor isn't very nice.


Despite all the compromises from an energy engineering perspective, everyone I've talked to who has had the exterior insulation done is really happy with the results, and I think that's the proof that the job is viable.
I always intended to have it done, but so far have not. My floor and ceiling is insulated and we have a heat recovery ventilation system installed; that makes a HUGE difference, and I recommend getting one.


I've built a few homes, insulated, sheeted, and installed heating systems, designed and assembled air-conditioning systems, wiring, plumbing, and drainage. I'm into this stuff.


My advice for the non- engineer home owner is to get a heating / cooling / engineering architect person to crunch the numbers and advise you, who is not going to profit from the sale of the machinery or the work, and whose advice might possibly be unbiased.

Re: Heating Options
 

:goodpost:
Thank you!

That is very helpful indeed in unravelling what the terms being used in the industry actually mean in real engineering terms.

Cheers!

Re: Heating Options
 

Not going to help you much! but we have underfloor air duct heating form an oil fired boiler (came with the house) We installed a log burning stove in the living room. The house was built by previous British owner and to a high standard. It is unusual for it to fall below 18/20 deg without any form of heating winter or summer. Neither OH or I like it warmer than that usually. Only if icy winds are blowing (which is rare in the Algarve) Our heating system is so efficient that we can get away with having it on for quite short periods so it doesn't cost us overmuch at all
The only thing I would say about the pellet system is that its a bit of a pain for any close neighbours. It frankly stinks.. Our neighbour has one with a very tall chimney n the front garden.. It blows all over our garden,the smell is awful...

Re: Heating Options
 

So, thinking aloud, 'as I see it' ....

(Whenever I say 'air-con' I mean reversible air heat pumps)

1. Interior vs exterior insulation - What are the pros and cons one v the other?

• Exterior uses thermal mass of walls as a 'reservoir'/'damper')'? When we have periods of really hot days and nights in summer for any length of time I have found this to be a disadvantage as there is no cooling cycle, although I am not sue of this.
• Exterior heat losses to foundations etc greater?
• Exterior presumably has to have interior roof insulation
• Interior - what about condensation between the insulation and the (cold in winter) concrete walls?
• Interior cheaper/easier?
• Interior loss of space (not a prob for us and we need to redo electrics)?
• Interior we would like to keep the existing 'knobbly' surface on the walls, how to do this on plasterboard?
• etc.

2. Humidity

• 2 mechanisms:
  • Any heating means that rel humid goes down without any water extraction?
  • Air-con extracts water due to condensation (hence drain pipes)?
• etc.

3. Heating systems

• 'Air-con' Cheaper/simpler to buy & install?
• 'Air-con' large market in PT , hence good choice, availability, prices and maintenance?
• 'Air-con' can cool in summer when required
• 'Air-con' becomes inefficient for large temp differentials (and can not function at very low temps)?
• 'Air-con' low thermal mass (Cp) so quick warm and cooling times (can be advantage or disadvantage)?
• Water radiators high thermal mass (Cp) so slow warm and cool times (can be advantage or disadvantage)?
• Underfloor very efficient, low space, even distribution but expensive/disruptive to install? Also what about any future maintenance when problems occur?
• Underground heat exchangers in system great but expensive?
• Closed ventilation systems with In/out heat exchangers (also underground heat exchanger possible) very efficient and good for allergies? But what about humidity build up?
• Salamandras efficient (and agreeable)?
• Salamandras best to have the chimney as a vertical heat exchanger 'in the open' in the room (and through room above)?
• Salamandras in living areas with 'Air con' in upstairs bedrooms etc could be a good 'hybrid'
• Gas boiler for heating would require a storage pressure vessel rather than bottles (we have no mains gas)?
• etc

I'm looking for confirmations of my thoughts, answers to my questions and other points that I am sure I haven't thought of to help me evaluate.

Thanks, and a Happy New Year!

Leigh

Re: Heating Options
 

I can see you have put a lot of thought into the project. Just a little input from my personal experience that may (or may not) prompt a few more thoughts.

If external insulation is bonded to the wall correctly there is no space for condensation to form - (Capoto system widely used in Portugal - external polystyrene with mechanically strong render finish). Best system really so walls retain heat in winter and are slow to transfer heat in Summer.

Wet underfloor system is always the best but consider doing a smaller zone - main living areas + master bedroom. The is about the limit of a 4kw Salamander with back boiler in terms of performance. If you don't want to dig up the floors then just chase in some 'micro-bore' pipes when you are doing the walls and add a few radiators - some nice styles around now.

AC is great in Summer (consider installing some PV panels to run it for cooling for free). It's also ugly to see and a external units can be noisy - consider combining two internal units to one external unit to save 'wall clutter'.

AC is less great in Winter but fine for rooms that are not used much or to get a quick top up. They don't heat the building structure well they just make warm air.

Salamander best fitted on an internal wall to get max output from flue temperature. There are some interesting flue coil options for extra heat extraction that pull out enough heat to run another radiator. Salamander with back boiler is nice and efficient and will do domestic hot water as well.

Your thoughts about 'Hybrid' deserve encouragement, great to have several heating options for different seasons and for different areas of the house - probably no need to heat an empty guest bedroom.

Take a look at pellet burners + micro-bore central heating with rads. A lot of decisions depend on your house layout and the way you use the space.

Ultimate heating for a new build or (rebuild if you have access to floors to fit a UFH matrix) is - solar water heating panels on roof + large indirect tank with multiple coils, connection to a back boiler, + a heat pump for cloudy days. Anyone building a house these days should at least put the pipes in ready for future use. (Plastic tube laid on to a polystyrene bed) Not a big cost if done during construction. Add the rest of the system when its affordable.

Also note that it's possible to use wet underfloor heating for underfloor cooling if you have a heat pump. Its discreet and efficient and if the heat pump is PV powered then its also free to run.

Hope this helps just a little - are we related by the way :)

Re: Heating Options
 

Our house is old and cold and no heating .. I was interested to read about the exterior insulation, as we have not yet done anything with the outer walls I am thinking this could the way to go.
Is it easy to purchase items and do yourself or is it a specialist job.
Also do you have any idea of cost
Thanks for all the info everyone has added its been really helpful 😎😎

Re: Heating Options
 

I considered external wall insulation in the past but was put off by one problem: my tiled roof would have to be altered so that it overlapped the increased wall thickness all round. As we have a single storey "old folks' bungalow" built in 1996, the roof has a large perimeter and the work and expense would be considerable. Has anyone got experience of this?

The walls are ventilated cavity so do not suffer from damp problems. However, as a retired civil engineer, I can't bear to think of the heat loss in winter months. I doubled the roof insulation because that was relatively cheap and easy: we have roof lofts all round so it was an easy DIY job. I searched around for someone who could fill the wall cavity with insulation but there were no companies doing this in 2003/4. Has this changed in the Algarve yet? I've been asleep for quite a while!

I have to say though that after installing night storage heaters many years ago, we have a cosy house in the winter, especially in our bathroom. The original water based gas-fired central heating was ridiculously expensive to run on bottled gas; no mains gas here. I would like to reduce the electricity bill. Perhaps I should generate some free electricity using PV panels. Advice and suggestions would be very welcome.

Happy New Year everyone.

Re: Heating Options
 

External cladding is likely to cost around 30 Euros per square metre so do your rough calculations at that rate before shopping around. It varies according to the thickness required and the layout of the property - (curved walls cost extra). 40mm is a good minimum thickness but more is better. It's possible to put a permanently coloured render overall that makes a long lasting finish that makes it unnecessary to paint for years - so there are some further benefits ;)

Re: Heating Options
 

Thanks!
More thoughts / points for my list:

• Thanks for Exterior cladding rough estimate, I think it will probably be a big outlay on our house & extending tiled eaves might be even more so. Looks good though, and is preferred option of upper management, and if this is well done then heating can be much lower spec.
• Celotex type insulation / plasterboard could be less easy as inside walls full of nooks and crannies and openings etc - there's relatively little flat surface. But I am guessing that normally it is the cheaper / easier option?
• We have only a small loft space in the apex of the roof. Lots of sloping roof which is just reinf. concrete, which means Celotex there I guess?

• Air con plan was one external unit supplying various internal units, as my Brother in law has in his house in Lisbon.
• Very large all round garden, external units can be positioned to avoid noise / unsightliness
• Not sure about just air con for the two bedrooms that are to be used every night. It only heats air, hence quick cooling (but also quick heating) and also not efficient in cold outside temps, but the bedrooms in our old house on the UK North Sea coast right on the chilly beach were fine with a 1970's ducted hot air system (although that was mains gas fired). Also, in summer cooling good to have in the bedrooms of that house apparently (although that is from experience with current lack of any insulation).

• Salamandra on interior wall for sure, but my friend has his standing away from any walls with the flue visible straight up to the high open, (i.e. no loft space) ceiling which I like. Any disadvantages to this?
• Back boilers for salamandras sounds very interesting. Maybe a radiator from the planned living room (25 m²) and 'back room' (35 m², a second living room come guest room) salamandras which are directly below each bedroom, at 18 & 25 m² respectively? But this needs pumps too I presume?
• Will look into salamandra flu coils (so that's what they are called!) Couldn't they just be in the bedrooms upstairs instead of having a back boiler and then pumping up hot water to a rad?

• Underfloor 'wet' heating: I am still shying away from this due to cost and work, although if it is only for the living room it may be feasible with a salamandra back boiler? Also Mrs S. wants to keep the tiled floors and rugs she has had there since childhood, but then the rugs would have to go...

Lot's of different options!


Thanks again


Leigh

Re: Heating Options
 

1x Central AC Unit with multiple internal units is great but you have no fallback in case of equipment failure/loss of gas etc.

Back boiler connected direct to UFH is no good as the temperature of the water is too high. You have to heat a large tank of water using an indirect coil to get the temperature right down to around 30 degrees before you can put it through a floor matrix (imagine trying to walk on a floor heated to 70 degrees - yikes). Best low cost option is to stick to rads which work perfectly at higher temperatures and just need a simple low cost circulation pump.

No disadvantages to a tall exposed internal chimney - the only doubt with heating a tall room is that as hot air rises it will be a lot hotter at the top than at the bottom where you are and you may need to fan it or add a heat recovery system (another fun topic!)

These people supply a lot of interesting kit ... https://www.navitron.org.uk/ and have a lot of useful info on their site

Some useful info on in flue heating coil design here http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/W...n-flue-hx.htmlhttp://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/W...n-flue-hx.html

Its very important to find a way to insulate loft space a lot of heat is lost there

Carpets on top of UFH are not good as they stop the heat from warming the room. No need anyway as walking on a 30 degree heated floor is wonderful in bare feet.

Re: Heating Options
 

Standard manifolds for hydronic radiant heat systems have a bypass thermostat; simple and reliable, it only lets hot water into the manifold to maintain the preset temperature. They're made to attach to standard boilers, which run at 60 + degrees.


Actually, you can have carpets; while not ideal from an engineering standpoint, they have less effect that you would expect. in practice, the carpet heats up and becomes the radiator. Our floors are 70% covered by carpets.

You can use parket flooring too; some types may be used with underfloor heat. You need a special underlayer that conducts heat.

Re: Heating Options
 

Sorry, I'm just exploring different concepts / ideas (and having fun) ....

The below ideas to be used as a boost for air con upstairs, as nice and simple solutions without any extra water circuits (especially inside flue), and no taking up of floors etc:

What about the flue of a wood/pellet etc burner that goes straight up through the downstairs ceiling to the room above, where it is encased in a box with an inlet air vent from room at bottom and heated room air outlet higher up (simple air-air heat exchanger)? Hot outlet at top is not ideal tho...

SO how about just a nice shiny exposed 'straight up and out' flue pipe (with a wire guard) going up through the downstairs ceiling and then up through the upstairs room and out through the roof (for radiant and convected heat in this case). I really like the 'minimalism' of this :)

Also, what about simple (closable) grills in lower ceiling / upper floor to allow hot room air to move upstairs? Again simple.

Any big cons, No-No's etc with those types of ideas?

Also, presumably if you extract too much heat from flue you can get problems with updraught and condensation too?

EDIT: There isnt actually hardly any loft space to insulate (sorry, Essex grammar there), just in the very apex, under 2m wide. The idea will be to affix foam insulation to the inside of the sloping roof ceilings. These are reinforced concrete (tiles on top, but not sure how much the tiles do in terms of rain protection given that its concrete underneath them).

Re: Heating Options
 

We have a wood-burning stove in our sitting room which backs on to our bedroom in our old folks' bungalow. Our fitted wardrobe becomes one of the warmest rooms in the house when the stove has been on all evening. Open the wardrobe doors for more heat or take your warm clothes out in the morning and put them straight on!

Seriously though, make sure any heaters are fitted to interior walls, not external walls, and use flues to heat any upstairs bedroom where you can.

Re: Heating Options
 

I have been warned about potential pitfalls of taking heat out of flu by a mate at home

I like the idea of a warm cupboard where I can hide from family life every now and then :)

I did not say that

Re: Heating Options
 

If you cool the flu too much, you can lose the updraft; however, in practice this is pretty rare, unless you use a long water jacket.
The temp leaving the burner will be around 500C. at 100C, there will still be plenty of draft.

Some modern high efficiency burners extract more heat to the room and have a lower outlet temperature; they usually have fans and water based heat exchangers, double insulated flus, thick instruction books, and very high prices.

You can heat in any of those ways, the mild climate here means you rarely need much.
Thick insulation is good, but if you don't have the space, even 30mm will do the job.
Double glazed windows are good; here's a tip.
Most windows never get opened, so why spend the money on ones that open?
Half my windows are one piece of double glazing, set in a thin wooden frame attached to the concrete.
More light, looks better, less cost, easier to clean.

Re: Heating Options
 

Just to say thanks very much for all of your help,


We will go for:

• External insulation (inside of house so full of nooks and crannies and its an efficient solution despite not being able to hide elec. and pipes etc behind interior insulation, etc)
• All new windows and doors
• Pellet burners downstairs (ease of installation, we were impressed to see them working, mobile, etc) with the big fireplace already there
• Air-con upstairs (ease of installation, hopefully not needed much, selectable, also for cooling every now and then, etc)

Re: Heating Options
 

Sounds sensible to me.
Let us know how you get on; some of those external insulation works go bad and the cladding breaks away, so make sure you take a look at a previous job or two your people have done.

They use special fiber mesh to reinforce the thin outer concrete layer against the foam board, but it seems to me that steel mesh bolted through the insulation to the bricks would make the whole thing more robust.

Re: Heating Options
 

We have a beautiful new pellet Burner (Piazzetta P 158T) in our house in Spain. It is easy to use, the 50m² living heats up easily. We use 10 kilo per day.
BUT, we now have a kind of wind in the house. A pellet stove needs a lot of air and this air comes from the hall and the air is less warm. We don't like that at all! We got a stiff neck after 1 day.
We are disappointed. So, be careful.

For our house in the Algarve we bought a nice mobile round gas heater. The living is small (25m²) and it heats up in 10 minutes. During the day we open the windows 15 minutes to get new air inside.

Re: Heating Options
 

modern high efficiency burners have 2 tubes to the outside, 1 for drawing in air and 1 for expelling exhaust.
If your house is [will be] tight and cozy without drafts, that's what you need if using a burner type of heating system.

Re: Heating Options
 

Have made sure that we are looking into the cladding people especially carefully

I don't think that metal is necessarily more robust than fibre in a composite with cement, although I don't know the details of what the fibre is. It also wont rust (water will get in even if it is only vapour passing through the cement) and will be much lighter
But I am biased as I research marine (fibre) composite materials and am forever extolling their virtues over steel and aluminium :)