End of Democracy in Portugal ?
Nov 12th 2015, 1:35 pm
#181
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
You know, for someone who uses the word "reality" so frequently, you're doing a mighty fine impression of someone who's lost touch with it completely.
Just because you and your mates have got it into your bonces that you want a toll-free Algarve for Christmas, doesn't make it Socialist Party policy, nor a promise they made in order to get elected. The electoral programme which Ingles posted a link to earlier on the thread contains not one mention of reducing or eliminating toll fees on the A22 or any of the other ex-SCUTs, so we're going to have to wait and see whether it is a matter which will see the light of day while they're in office or not. But one thing's for sure - when their term is at its end, no-one will be able to say, whatever has happened, that they didn't keep a promise on that front.
In terms of deciding whether they deliver on their pledges, you have to know what those are and measure accordingly, not on the basis of your hopes and expectations.
Just because you and your mates have got it into your bonces that you want a toll-free Algarve for Christmas, doesn't make it Socialist Party policy, nor a promise they made in order to get elected. The electoral programme which Ingles posted a link to earlier on the thread contains not one mention of reducing or eliminating toll fees on the A22 or any of the other ex-SCUTs, so we're going to have to wait and see whether it is a matter which will see the light of day while they're in office or not. But one thing's for sure - when their term is at its end, no-one will be able to say, whatever has happened, that they didn't keep a promise on that front.
In terms of deciding whether they deliver on their pledges, you have to know what those are and measure accordingly, not on the basis of your hopes and expectations.
There is a letter in last weeks Algarve Resident reflectimg that.
Algarvians are fed up being Lisbons cash cow hence the move to the socialists.
Nov 12th 2015, 1:43 pm
#182
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
Oh well, why on earth didn't you say so before? A letter in the Algarve Resident - that definitely confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is in the manifesto.
I take it all back.
I take it all back.
Nov 12th 2015, 1:53 pm
#183
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
.
Nov 12th 2015, 8:14 pm
#184
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
You seem to be extremely knowledgeable Red about the proposed manifesto of this combined 'left leaning' new Government.Very sure of what it will and won't do. what it has and hasn't promised. I have asked quite a few locals from cafe owners to teachers,even my Portuguese teacher and they are as yet completely in the dark. As you have the inside lane so to speak and are obviously more informed than any of us ,(and quite scathing in your remarks to us more ill informed).Perhaps you could help us all out by writing the manifesto proposed -here on the forum (of course without any communist input as they won't be taking part) It would be very helpful and perhaps save more argument on the subject Obviously need to be abridged but we will get the gist I'm sure
Nov 13th 2015, 6:37 am
#185
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
I have been scathing to the poster who insists on making up promises not made by the government-in-waiting in order that later on he can say they weren't kept. He can be pretty scathing himself at times - I post as I find.
With regard to the matters of policy, I have posted some of what has been made known already - a summary for EMR, for example, of some of the proposed measures affecting "average Portuguese" and a link to an article in English outlining those and some others a few days later. If you missed the latter, it is here
The government programme will remain broadly similar to that proposed prior to the election, subject to the amendments agreed as part of the negotiations between the Socialists and each of the other parties. That original programme was published and Ingles provided a link to it earlier in this thread. Again, if you missed that, it is here. Of course I'm not going to attempt to condense that into a single post but here are links to the agreement between the PS and the BE, between the PS and the PCP and between the PS and the PEV, all of which summarise the broad positions as well as listing specific measures which the PS will be held to.
And no, I'm not very sure of exactly what the government will be certain to do and what it won't, as you will see if you read my posts properly. The absence of something from the election manifesto doesn't mean there will be absolutely no chance of any action on the matter in 4 years of government. However, I am confident that every attempt will be made to honour all of the agreements I have linked to above.
But of course we don't even know if they'll be allowed to form a government yet.....
With regard to the matters of policy, I have posted some of what has been made known already - a summary for EMR, for example, of some of the proposed measures affecting "average Portuguese" and a link to an article in English outlining those and some others a few days later. If you missed the latter, it is here
The government programme will remain broadly similar to that proposed prior to the election, subject to the amendments agreed as part of the negotiations between the Socialists and each of the other parties. That original programme was published and Ingles provided a link to it earlier in this thread. Again, if you missed that, it is here. Of course I'm not going to attempt to condense that into a single post but here are links to the agreement between the PS and the BE, between the PS and the PCP and between the PS and the PEV, all of which summarise the broad positions as well as listing specific measures which the PS will be held to.
And no, I'm not very sure of exactly what the government will be certain to do and what it won't, as you will see if you read my posts properly. The absence of something from the election manifesto doesn't mean there will be absolutely no chance of any action on the matter in 4 years of government. However, I am confident that every attempt will be made to honour all of the agreements I have linked to above.
But of course we don't even know if they'll be allowed to form a government yet.....
Nov 13th 2015, 8:55 am
#186
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
I have been scathing to the poster who insists on making up promises not made by the government-in-waiting in order that later on he can say they weren't kept. He can be pretty scathing himself at times - I post as I find.
With regard to the matters of policy, I have posted some of what has been made known already - a summary for EMR, for example, of some of the proposed measures affecting "average Portuguese" and a link to an article in English outlining those and some others a few days later. If you missed the latter, it is here
The government programme will remain broadly similar to that proposed prior to the election, subject to the amendments agreed as part of the negotiations between the Socialists and each of the other parties. That original programme was published and Ingles provided a link to it earlier in this thread. Again, if you missed that, it is here. Of course I'm not going to attempt to condense that into a single post but here are links to the agreement between the PS and the BE, between the PS and the PCP and between the PS and the PEV, all of which summarise the broad positions as well as listing specific measures which the PS will be held to.
And no, I'm not very sure of exactly what the government will be certain to do and what it won't, as you will see if you read my posts properly. The absence of something from the election manifesto doesn't mean there will be absolutely no chance of any action on the matter in 4 years of government. However, I am confident that every attempt will be made to honour all of the agreements I have linked to above.
But of course we don't even know if they'll be allowed to form a government yet.....
With regard to the matters of policy, I have posted some of what has been made known already - a summary for EMR, for example, of some of the proposed measures affecting "average Portuguese" and a link to an article in English outlining those and some others a few days later. If you missed the latter, it is here
The government programme will remain broadly similar to that proposed prior to the election, subject to the amendments agreed as part of the negotiations between the Socialists and each of the other parties. That original programme was published and Ingles provided a link to it earlier in this thread. Again, if you missed that, it is here. Of course I'm not going to attempt to condense that into a single post but here are links to the agreement between the PS and the BE, between the PS and the PCP and between the PS and the PEV, all of which summarise the broad positions as well as listing specific measures which the PS will be held to.
And no, I'm not very sure of exactly what the government will be certain to do and what it won't, as you will see if you read my posts properly. The absence of something from the election manifesto doesn't mean there will be absolutely no chance of any action on the matter in 4 years of government. However, I am confident that every attempt will be made to honour all of the agreements I have linked to above.
But of course we don't even know if they'll be allowed to form a government yet.....
Nov 13th 2015, 10:43 am
#187
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
[QUOTE=Red Eric;11793040]
But of course we don't even know if they'll be allowed to form a government yet.....[/QUOTE]
Governo - Passos pede revisão constitucional imediata para antecipar eleições - Portugal - DN
Got the nail right on the head yet again ole chap
PT TV News covered this extensively last night.
http://algarvedailynews.com/news/718...n-minimum-wage
The pressure being put on our so called "President" to make a decision is unhappily all one-sided !!!
But of course we don't even know if they'll be allowed to form a government yet.....[/QUOTE]
Governo - Passos pede revisão constitucional imediata para antecipar eleições - Portugal - DN
Got the nail right on the head yet again ole chap
PT TV News covered this extensively last night.
http://algarvedailynews.com/news/718...n-minimum-wage
The pressure being put on our so called "President" to make a decision is unhappily all one-sided !!!
Last edited by Ingles; Nov 13th 2015 at 12:12 pm. Reason: Added link
Nov 13th 2015, 1:04 pm
#188
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
)).However, there are still inaccuracies, which may give the unwary reader a wrong impression. For example
Privatisations, carried out by the previous government, will be reversed
I suppose some people will think that's nitpicking but I consider the two statements to be vastly different and the difference of great importance.
Nov 13th 2015, 4:13 pm
#189
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
No EMR, it's not total rubbish - this article from the Portugal news online is generally fine and in keeping with what I have been saying all along. A little sketchy on the range of measures in the agreements but the gist is there (including the IVA on restaurants (but not the SCUT tolls )).
However, there are still inaccuracies, which may give the unwary reader a wrong impression. For example should properly state "Some of the privatisations carried out by the previous government will be reversed"
I suppose some people will think that's nitpicking but I consider the two statements to be vastly different and the difference of great importance.
)).However, there are still inaccuracies, which may give the unwary reader a wrong impression. For example should properly state "Some of the privatisations carried out by the previous government will be reversed"
I suppose some people will think that's nitpicking but I consider the two statements to be vastly different and the difference of great importance.
Nov 14th 2015, 5:39 am
#190
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
Thank you Red for the explanation and the quotes (altho I couldn't access/pull up the second one) Interesting reading,however still unclear as to how they intend to fund this programme? Or what the communists get out of the alliance?
Nov 14th 2015, 6:12 am
#191
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
I'm not sure what the problem with the link is - I've re-checked all 5 and they all work for me. Let me know which one and I'll try to find another way of getting you to it if it still doesn't work.
With regard to funding, some areas will be funded by stimulation of private investment, some by taking advantage of available EU funding and some, as always, from taxation and from Social Security contributions. With the latter it's a matter of redistributing the load a bit to ensure we're all contributing a fair amount and making different choices from the the ex-government about spending priorities. A little of the detail on that area can be found on eg pages 80 & 81 of the electoral programme.
As to what the communists get, not a great deal. They get "not the PSD programme", which is the same one we've been labouring under for the past 4 years. They're opposed to privatisations, for example, and there's a pledge from the Socialists to not advance with any more of those. Redressing the injustices perpetrated by the previous government on public sector workers and on pensioners. Protection of and beefing-up of existing rights for all workers (eg collective agreements, commitments to raising of minimum wage etc) and of Social Security and pension arrangements. Emphasis on addressing the problems of unemployment and precarious employment. Protection and improvement of state-provided services such as health and education. Stimulus to small and medium-sized enterprises through alterations to the IRC tax code......etc. That kind of stuff.
With regard to funding, some areas will be funded by stimulation of private investment, some by taking advantage of available EU funding and some, as always, from taxation and from Social Security contributions. With the latter it's a matter of redistributing the load a bit to ensure we're all contributing a fair amount and making different choices from the the ex-government about spending priorities. A little of the detail on that area can be found on eg pages 80 & 81 of the electoral programme.
As to what the communists get, not a great deal. They get "not the PSD programme", which is the same one we've been labouring under for the past 4 years. They're opposed to privatisations, for example, and there's a pledge from the Socialists to not advance with any more of those. Redressing the injustices perpetrated by the previous government on public sector workers and on pensioners. Protection of and beefing-up of existing rights for all workers (eg collective agreements, commitments to raising of minimum wage etc) and of Social Security and pension arrangements. Emphasis on addressing the problems of unemployment and precarious employment. Protection and improvement of state-provided services such as health and education. Stimulus to small and medium-sized enterprises through alterations to the IRC tax code......etc. That kind of stuff.
Last edited by Red Eric; Nov 14th 2015 at 6:32 am. Reason: Clarification
Nov 14th 2015, 7:46 am
#192
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
I'm not sure what the problem with the link is - I've re-checked all 5 and they all work for me. Let me know which one and I'll try to find another way of getting you to it if it still doesn't work.
With regard to funding, some areas will be funded by stimulation of private investment, some by taking advantage of available EU funding and some, as always, from taxation and from Social Security contributions. With the latter it's a matter of redistributing the load a bit to ensure we're all contributing a fair amount and making different choices from the the ex-government about spending priorities. A little of the detail on that area can be found on eg pages 80 & 81 of the electoral programme.
As to what the communists get, not a great deal. They get "not the PSD programme", which is the same one we've been labouring under for the past 4 years. They're opposed to privatisations, for example, and there's a pledge from the Socialists to not advance with any more of those. Redressing the injustices perpetrated by the previous government on public sector workers and on pensioners. Protection of and beefing-up of existing rights for all workers (eg collective agreements, commitments to raising of minimum wage etc) and of Social Security and pension arrangements. Emphasis on addressing the problems of unemployment and precarious employment. Protection and improvement of state-provided services such as health and education. Stimulus to small and medium-sized enterprises through alterations to the IRC tax code......etc. That kind of stuff.
With regard to funding, some areas will be funded by stimulation of private investment, some by taking advantage of available EU funding and some, as always, from taxation and from Social Security contributions. With the latter it's a matter of redistributing the load a bit to ensure we're all contributing a fair amount and making different choices from the the ex-government about spending priorities. A little of the detail on that area can be found on eg pages 80 & 81 of the electoral programme.
As to what the communists get, not a great deal. They get "not the PSD programme", which is the same one we've been labouring under for the past 4 years. They're opposed to privatisations, for example, and there's a pledge from the Socialists to not advance with any more of those. Redressing the injustices perpetrated by the previous government on public sector workers and on pensioners. Protection of and beefing-up of existing rights for all workers (eg collective agreements, commitments to raising of minimum wage etc) and of Social Security and pension arrangements. Emphasis on addressing the problems of unemployment and precarious employment. Protection and improvement of state-provided services such as health and education. Stimulus to small and medium-sized enterprises through alterations to the IRC tax code......etc. That kind of stuff.
Are you also suggesting tax and social security contributions for some will increase to fund the changes to pensions etc.
Where are the funds coming from ??
The one thing you have to admire socialists for is their optimism.
Not that there is .anything wrong with that
What s the constitutional position if after all his meetings with the various parties , industry etc the President decides that a minority socialist government would be a backward step for Portugal.
Is the English anguage press correct in that he can ask the conservative coalition to remain in power until a new election is called. ?
Last edited by EMR; Nov 14th 2015 at 7:53 am.
Nov 14th 2015, 8:17 am
#193
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
EU funding is more about maximising the claiming and use of available funding in certain areas than the way you've put it above.
I've already mentioned a review of IRS and of IRC. There are also other forms of taxation which will be examined with a view to possible amendments (eg IMI). Some individuals and businesses may end up contributing more in tax, some less - that's what making the adjustments is all about. With regard to Social Security contributions, the PS actually wanted to reduce contributions on both employee and employer temporarily but have been persuaded to drop this proposal after pressure from the other parties. I know the BE made that an absolute no as far as they were concerned.
Where are the funds coming from? - I can't say for sure but I think most of them are coming from the SCUT tolls, particularly those on the A22
I have already said (possibly more than once?) what the choices available to the President are under the constitution and Ingles posted an article from Económico a day or so back, which you could use a translation tool on. However, to summarise, yes the President can put Passos Coelho back in as PM of a "management" government, or he can nominate someone else of his choosing not currently sitting in parliament. In either case life could be made extremely difficult for the PM by the combined opposition and such a government would have vastly reduced powers and no proper budget. On those grounds and combined with the fact that he pled a short while ago in favour of "stability" either would be an unwise and highly risky choice but not one that I would rule him completely out of being capable of making.
I've already mentioned a review of IRS and of IRC. There are also other forms of taxation which will be examined with a view to possible amendments (eg IMI). Some individuals and businesses may end up contributing more in tax, some less - that's what making the adjustments is all about. With regard to Social Security contributions, the PS actually wanted to reduce contributions on both employee and employer temporarily but have been persuaded to drop this proposal after pressure from the other parties. I know the BE made that an absolute no as far as they were concerned.
Where are the funds coming from? - I can't say for sure but I think most of them are coming from the SCUT tolls, particularly those on the A22
I have already said (possibly more than once?) what the choices available to the President are under the constitution and Ingles posted an article from Económico a day or so back, which you could use a translation tool on. However, to summarise, yes the President can put Passos Coelho back in as PM of a "management" government, or he can nominate someone else of his choosing not currently sitting in parliament. In either case life could be made extremely difficult for the PM by the combined opposition and such a government would have vastly reduced powers and no proper budget. On those grounds and combined with the fact that he pled a short while ago in favour of "stability" either would be an unwise and highly risky choice but not one that I would rule him completely out of being capable of making.
Nov 14th 2015, 9:50 am
#194
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
Some off you may already seen this 
Passos Coelho demands constitutional rule change so he can be re-elected
Passos Coelho demands constitutional rule change so he can be re-elected
Nov 14th 2015, 10:07 am
#195
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Re: End of Democracy in Portugal ?
EU funding is more about maximising the claiming and use of available funding in certain areas than the way you've put it above.
I've already mentioned a review of IRS and of IRC. There are also other forms of taxation which will be examined with a view to possible amendments (eg IMI). Some individuals and businesses may end up contributing more in tax, some less - that's what making the adjustments is all about. With regard to Social Security contributions, the PS actually wanted to reduce contributions on both employee and employer temporarily but have been persuaded to drop this proposal after pressure from the other parties. I know the BE made that an absolute no as far as they were concerned.
Where are the funds coming from? - I can't say for sure but I think most of them are coming from the SCUT tolls, particularly those on the A22
I have already said (possibly more than once?) what the choices available to the President are under the constitution and Ingles posted an article from Económico a day or so back, which you could use a translation tool on. However, to summarise, yes the President can put Passos Coelho back in as PM of a "management" government, or he can nominate someone else of his choosing not currently sitting in parliament. In either case life could be made extremely difficult for the PM by the combined opposition and such a government would have vastly reduced powers and no proper budget. On those grounds and combined with the fact that he pled a short while ago in favour of "stability" either would be an unwise and highly risky choice but not one that I would rule him completely out of being capable of making.
I've already mentioned a review of IRS and of IRC. There are also other forms of taxation which will be examined with a view to possible amendments (eg IMI). Some individuals and businesses may end up contributing more in tax, some less - that's what making the adjustments is all about. With regard to Social Security contributions, the PS actually wanted to reduce contributions on both employee and employer temporarily but have been persuaded to drop this proposal after pressure from the other parties. I know the BE made that an absolute no as far as they were concerned.
Where are the funds coming from? - I can't say for sure but I think most of them are coming from the SCUT tolls, particularly those on the A22
I have already said (possibly more than once?) what the choices available to the President are under the constitution and Ingles posted an article from Económico a day or so back, which you could use a translation tool on. However, to summarise, yes the President can put Passos Coelho back in as PM of a "management" government, or he can nominate someone else of his choosing not currently sitting in parliament. In either case life could be made extremely difficult for the PM by the combined opposition and such a government would have vastly reduced powers and no proper budget. On those grounds and combined with the fact that he pled a short while ago in favour of "stability" either would be an unwise and highly risky choice but not one that I would rule him completely out of being capable of making.
Obviously you are so well off that the tolls do not matter to you but for those on min wage it makes a difference as will the increase confirmed this week in the Portugal News
Who ever is in charge next year can look forward to their visits to the Algarve being interuppted by anti toll demonstrations.
At least you are honest and admit that you have as much of an idea if where the money is coming from as the Socialists .
Last edited by EMR; Nov 14th 2015 at 10:11 am.