Re: The embarrassment factor
 

i did pay - and tip
we were just embarassed and angry that they clearly were just trying to cause trouble - even more so as they weren't tourists - just seemed the right thing to do at the time - and i wil pretty much eat anything - so it wasn't a hardship

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

If you keep giving them licence to behave this way.. No it won't.. You only have to look at what has happened to Ibiza.. However it wasn't the Spanish bar owners who created this.. It was two obnoxious guys from London who 'created' the stag night and party night, pub crawls. They paid the pubs to take these horrendous groups in..Once again it is a British thing.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Lol does that mean .. direct translation.. A cat slap.? I like that...

We have to accept that the way we have chosen to go in the UK re-bringing up our families is rather sad. We have put money first. and family last. Kids now are brought up by the TV and iPad ,the iPhone, twitter and Facebook Parents often completely absent in the equation.Both working to afford all the things now deemed essential in their lives. 'Things' that replace parenting.

We also have an historical attitude towards children.. Seen but not heard.. a pest to be kept out of the way..preferable by someone else,whilst they.. the parents have fun. Leisure is big for the Brits. I sometimes pop into another British forum just for women. It astounds me how much they are always 'treating themselves' farming their kids out in the process'. Everything from spa days.. to cruises twice or three times a year. These are not well off people either. I haven't even begun with the endless shopping..all on credit of course.

It is quite marked amongst grandparents in the UK now who are more often than not roped in to look after the grandkids,not for the odd day.. but so the daughter or DIL can go back to work.It has now happened to three of my friends. and they are not at all happy.. exhausted in fact.. but can't do anything about it. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see where kids left to fend for themselves end up..

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

It was a little like that when we first moved to the Netherlands.. much more formal but not quite as much as Germany.... People knew where they were and what t o expect

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

It was interesting o hear some of the stories ..But what do we do about this before it gets worse. Anyone any idea's.. Its not good enough to simple shrug our shoulders , especially with Brexit looming. It does affect us,and maybe more negatively in the future.

Personally I feel our consuls and Embassies should do more . Ditto our government. Maybe a polite warning at airports.on planes. at schools etc etc..

Plus I asked if you would ,or have, ever intervened?

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Something like that but rather less polite. ;)

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

My wife has lived in the UK for 30 years, but workmen smile when she addresses them as Mr.John or Mr.David, even after they have introduced themselves by their first name. She doesn't do this with our friends and the status of the person doesn't matter - it is respect for the person.

For those of you unfamiliar with Portuguese custom, there are 3 ways of adressing someone - tu, você and in the third person - as in "Se o senhor quer...." literally "If sir likes.....". Actually there are more - my own sister-in-law (or, more correctly, my wife's sister-in-law) still adresses me in the third person after almost 30 years - but as in "Se o (name) quer".

I still don't have a complete handle on it - and "você" seems fairly redundant amongst people I meet (whereas it's universal in Brazilian). My wife speaks to some friends in the third person and others as "tu", but has never been able to explain why.... and once I thought I'd be "correct" and used "você" with my brother-in-law - to which he immediately shot back "What are you, Brazilian or something?!!" (in Portuguese, of course) .... he is a "tu".

..... and people think French is complex!

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

probably ott - but kinda of fits the thread - i wrote it in a thoughtful moment - my entry for the Chinese cracker competition

The purpose of life is to learn.

We are all Human, Black, White, Yellow, European, American,
African, Arab, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic

Babies and small infants have no knowledge of colour, creed, greed, theft, murder or religion.
They are simply taught wrongly - Following the teacher.

Then as we grow we are changed from Human to Sheep immitating what we see and are taught.

There are no bad sheep, but sadly some evil teachers.
Teachers who preach hatred, often in the name of Gods, but in reality simply because they are hateful people
Teachers who give bad examples
Business' that polute, poison, cheat and destroy in the name of profit.
Politicians who cheat and lie simply to line their own pockets.
People who cheat lie and steal - living off others their entire lifetime who never do a fair days work
People who want to control others - purely to impose their will - to share their spite hatred and jealousy - to deny others their freedoms and oportunties.

For what - to accumulate ridiculous numbered pieces of paper or 0's and 1's in a computer system.
For victories that mean nothing - you can't park here etc
They think in their own way they do no harm, but the sheep copy their example in their millions.
Its time to remove the bad teachers, so that real learning can commence.
Starting with regaining the knowledge we are all Human, not sheep.

or if all thats too serious in the case of drunken thugs simply round them up every night and put them on the first plane home at their cost - i believe this has been done before to great effect - word will soon get around

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Do you think acquiring PT nationality might help? Would it serve to halve the embarrassment, perhaps?

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I ran a business in Africa for over 30 years & employed several hundred (native/black) employees over that time period & not one of them in all that time would call me by my Christian name.......... They'd always call me Mr followed by either my first name or surname or even sometimes by one of my African tribal names (rather like a nickname) but NEVER simply by my first name.

Which takes us back to different cultures I guess. ;)

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

GeniB - unfortunately it is going to get worse due to brexit or to be precise the attitudes that gave rise to brexit. Should Govt. / Embassies do more? Certainly but do not hold your breath; have I intervened? Not yet but it's only a matter of time - I have had a few close calls & rightly or wrongly it will happen!

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

i intervened once - a total drunk being a nuisance
i simply picked him up in a bear hug and carried him outside
it was surprisingly easy

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I agree entirely. When I bought a place here 10 years ago, I loved downtown Pest. Nowadays, the so-called party district is to be largely avoided after dusk.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

i deleted my posting - basically i agreed with this one - the attitudes of brexit will make it much worse - i did say more - but in all honesty i've had enough death threats from those nice brexit people for one year so i deleted it:sarcasm: - see i posted a whatever the **** they are so its alright now

joking aside i really can't imagine what 17 million people who all vow they hate Europe - i know - hate the eu - better or at least accurate - hate foreigners especially ones from Europe - i know- say things like send all Europeans home - die expat traitors - we hate the undemocratic unelected corrupt EU - i know - etc etc will do on their 10 days of cheap beer and sunburnt fun packed holidays - probably i' m guessing in Europe - maybe even in the EU
a fun summer this one will probably not be - personally i'm avoiding all of the places these people are likely to visit - if not i think there's a real possibility i'd rip someones head off

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Another way of looking at the 'Brit problem' is from the viewpoint of statistics. The two nationalities this thread has named as being rude, obnoxious, embarrassing etc represent, not coincidentally, by far the greatest number of tourist visitors to Portugal. If 5% of the Brit or French tourists in Portugal behave badly, you're going to notice them a lot more than if 5% of the Americans there are behaving in exactly the same way.

Having said that, I hate ugly tourists (and I'm not talking about how good they look!). I'm from Perth in Australia, so Bali is a popular choice for a quick and cheap holiday. Australians are by far the largest group of tourists there, and although we're by no means all yobs some of the drunken behavior I've seen makes me want to tell the locals I'm British ;)

http://www.portugalglobal.pt/EN/Bibl...PaisIngles.pdf
The main markets generating tourism revenue to Portugal, in 2016, were France (with 18% of the total), the United Kingdom (17.9%), Spain (12.9%), Germany (11.7%) and the USA (4.7%), that together make up 65.1% of the total for this period.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I don't think it's a competition! What you say is true, but in Europe, few other nationalities display the same characteristics as Brits abroad, whether it be for holidays or football. The French don't get drunk, but they have a reputation for rudeness - maybe because tourism outside France is relatively new for them.

Which brings me to your statistics - well you know the expression "lies, damned lies & statistics", this is a case in point. I'm sure people would be astounded to know there was more revenue from French tourists than English.... probably because the statistics only count what they count - we don't know how "revenue" is calculated.

The second figures you quote are again for nights in a hotel, not overall visitors - my gut instinct tells me there are many, many more Dutch than Americans, but they use motorhomes a lot so won't register so highly on the stats here. Indeed, with Schengen, it's impossible to say how many EU visitors there are by nationality.

It also depends on the time period and geographical sample - a constant trickle of French tourists all over Portugal, throughout the year will have less immediate impact than the mass migration of Brits to the Algarve in the summer.

Never rely on statistics over observation....

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I actually think it comes from the Frencn influence doesn't it ? Using the Tu form means you are family and close.Anyone hearing it would know that then.The others are just as you say polite formalities. My OH was never addressed by his christian name at his office in the Netherlands ,in over 30 +yrs. It was always de Heer......or occasionally meneer de...Whilst the Dutch aren't known for their manners in general,in this respect they were very keen on rank.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I like your philosophy Carv. It is almost from the teachings of Buddha(altho sadly two men i know have taken those teachings recently and mangled them into meaning they can sleep with two women at the same time :o )

Juries out with me on wether we are born totally pure. Having been able to closely observe one 'baby' who was more than 'naughty' from the second he could walk.He 'stole' a milk float and crashed it into a neighbours porch at the age of two and a half. (the milkman wanted to smack his bottom thinking he was a strapping four yrs old)At the sam age he tried to smother his baby brother in his cot.. seriously!! He poked sticks into little (toddler) girls tummies and bottoms.even going for the eyes sometimes His final act before they left to live in Buckinghamshire was to fling himself through their plate glass sliding doors ,running full tilt at them.
His parents were the nicest people you could meet ,ditto his brother in later life. Not an ounce of aggression in either of them.Often wondered what happened to him and them
The fact remains that this has been going on since the 60's and i don't recall the British government doing one thing about it. They must be more than aware of this aggression mixed with alcohol..they have had yrs of football hooliganism .It was up to the clubs in the end to put a stop to that. It's almost like they don't care what our reputation abroad is .Is that arrogance on their part.?

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I don't think I can acquire PT nationality.. I can become a citizen though. If it all goes completely pear shaped.. I will

It won't make any difference to my level of embarrassment though. I am British and will always be proud to say i am. I will also remain angry at those who bring our country into disrepute.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Good for you :starsmile:

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Way to go :starsmile:

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I know your angry. It's hard to argue with people who are so hypocritical. I don't see why we should have to avoid anywhere though. if I encountered anything I would put myself at risk.. crazy though that is. and I would definitely go personally to the consul in Portimao with any evidence (photo's for e.g.) that i managed to get. If we don't demand it. we won't get it. We are viewed as you said above as ..sheep. Those that would rule have now neatly corralled us into silent ones as well.... Not this ewe lol :p

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

WOW ! You want to say your British? Thats going toooooooooo far SOS :rofl:
If those stats are correct.That makes the French impeccable visitors apart from their demanding attitude in Estate Agents and restaurants.Never EVER come across a drunkem French person.. even during many holidays in France.and here now they are in the majority now.
I have actually written a book ,loosely based on a story I read in the Portugal news a few yrs ago .It was about a policeman having to deal with drunken British tourists . I wondered what his feelings were as they abused his countrymen and women. Went on from there.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Your right about the Dutch.. and stats... DON'T get me started on motorhomes:eek:

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

French influence? The Portuguese language owes little to the French.....

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

IMy O'' level French certainly helped me with basic Portuguese, so there is a connection.
As with all Latin based languages.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

No, it's not a competition and I didn't intend to imply that it was.

I'm just providing another point of view to add to the mix. Of course statistics can be manipulated, politicians (and others) build their careers on it. But by anyone's reckoning, 18 million people are going to be more visible than 5 million.

Observation - yes, definitely a part of forming an impression. But each of us is one person who comes into contact with a proportionately tiny number of the whole.

Observation of the few has its place, but never rely on it over other methods of forming a valid judgment of the many - including statistics ;)

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

:lol:
Wouldn't really matter which nationality I was Genie, my mum had a wooden spoon that she wielded with great efficiency and effect, so my behavior is always impeccable :angel_smile:

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Sorry to be pedantic, but observation is the basis of the scientific method, statistics are merely a confirmation, so they prove what they prove, but you need to know the sample, the constraints and the objective to make any sense of the bare statistics. Statistics are shorthand, but need to be interpreted.

My observation (on the ground) is that French tourism has increased, but in no way matches the level of UK tourism in the Algarve (or in Portugal generally), US tourism exists, but is low level, and the majority of visitors come from the UK, Spain, Holland, Germany and Ireland. Others can confirm or argue that list from their experience.

However, the statistics presented don't derive from a representative sample of visitors to Portugal, but of measures around expenditure and hotel occupancy, both of which give a measurable, but unrepresentative sample.

We don't really know how the base data was derived
- the first is from the Bank of Portugal (but based on what?)
- the second is from registrations of "Bed nights (of foreigners in official accommodation)".

There is a problem with the latter measure - because only one person needs to register for a room, so we don't know the occupancy or if all occupants were the same nationality (My wife often registers for us as she has an ID card - so we'd be down as Portuguese although we would be travelling from the UK and I am Irish!)

The statistics are then being presented by an agency tasked with encouraging investment into Portugal.........

So, as I said (with expansion), Never rely on statistics over observation.... unless you are very, very sure of the statistics.........

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I think you probably can ;)

Aquisição da Nacionalidade

Ah well, if you're going to go about being embarrassed by superficial associations, so be it.

I'm not going to get embarrassed if a fellow Brit / redhead / man / test pilot wants to make a tit of himself.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

I agree, both are romance languages and the native English speaker is likely to first come across the ideas of gender-specific words and other Latin constructs by way of French. However, Portugal has also adopted the SI measures and the constitutional law leans on the Code Napoléon, but neither of these are direct influences either - rather harmonization with the other states of Europe.

If you look at the internet, you'll see that "you" is one of the biggest differences between Portuguese and Brazilian - many Brazilians don't recognize "tu" and most Portuguese don't use - and it's informal in Brazil, but formal in Portugal. The trick is knowing just how best to address someone in Portugal - and the truth is that people find ways around it, using "senhor doutor", "senhor (other profession), first name (as with my sister-in-law) - anything but "você"!!

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

What? They use quite a lot of it I thought .. ok via Latin.. but for counting etc...Non?

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Horses for courses then Eric. I was thinking more about the people on the receiving end of the 'louts' behaviour.. People I like, and would generally come into contact with again.. such as our lovely waiter (mentioned before) His opinion of me will be coloured by what he experienced. I know that ,because mine has been coloured by some of the unpleasant Dutch people I have met in the past... It's not fair... but thats how these things go.

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Não. Counting in almost all European languages derives from an early indo-european language that itself influenced Latin and other tongues:
One Two Three
Ein Zwei Drei
Un Deux Trois
Uno Dos Tres
Één Twee Drie
Um Dois Tres
En To Tre
Uno Due Tre
A hAon (Aon), A Dó (Dó), A Trí (Tri)
(The last one is irish - you have to put the numerical particle “a” infront of the number when listing numbers, but not when counting ;) - and that causes anything starting with a vowel to change)
If you allow for pronuncaiation changes, I think you'll see the similarity - do you think they all come from French? Finally, French changes the numbers above 80 from the "normal" root used by others.......

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

& for something slightly different -

Egy
Kettö
Harom

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

My observation (on the ground)


Hope the Brit women weren't wearing skirts! :lol:

You make some very good points. Interesting discussion :thumbup:

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Hungarian, like Basque(bat, bi, hiru) and Finnish (yksi, kaksi, kolme), seem to have been brought to Europe from another planet (by the Moomins in Finland's case!).:whistle:

Köszönöm/eskerrak/Kiitän sinua..... Go raibh mhaith agut.;)

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Trained in stats, worked with stats, don't believe 'em!;)

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

Szívesen!

Re: The embarrassment factor
 

My sister-in law is Finnish.. Well Swedish/German actually from her ancestry. Wasn't there a program on the Finns being unconnected with any other race on earth.? ditto their language?. They are also the most incestuous nation on earth.:eek: