scubadoo

Hi,
I moved my wife and 5 year old son to New Zealand from Oxford three years ago. I left a good position with Sir Walter Bodmer at the University of Oxford, lured by the promise of a better life, lower costs of living and investment in science.
None of the promises made by New Zealand have held up. The cost of living is much higher than in the UK. In the Major cities traffic jams and parking are easily as bad as the UK and probably worse. There is high crime in most of the cities and many black power gangs, all dealing drugs.
There are some benefits of course but I would like to alert people to the many down sides. It is very costly to move to New Zealand and then leave because of the conditions. There is a huge drain of educated people and health care professionals out of NZ, they get better pay and conditions in Australia or the UK! I am happy to pass on my experience to anybody who wishes to know more and I am happy to answer e-mails.

Wiz'n'Ton

Great first post scubadoo, and welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have loads of useful info to share, as I for one haven't heard of many scientists moving to NZ and would love to hear more. What is your science, and what do you do? My old man was an organic chemist working for the MOD in the UK. Used to love wandering around his labs as a kid - full of big boys toys.

From the 2 or so years I've been around this forum, it certainly seems that NZ isn't for everyone. Where abouts are you based? I'm guessing Auckland, Welly as you speak of drugs, gangs and traffic. ChCh has drugs and gangs, but no so much traffic

Weather this week is bringing everyone down - but to go with the gloom I hope NZ has given you a few good experiences.

Lenmil

All too true im afraid. Try OZ mate, it's way better for many reasons. NZ is a shocker in the cost of living. Uk is pricey for sure but not as bad. I did love NZ though while i was there mind you. I got double money in Oz then more compared to NZ. More options available in almost all area's. Shame really.

scubadoo

Hi - I was in cancer research in Oxford but I'm a molecular biologist technically. I have a broad range of experience which means I can work in most fields. I had a responsible position in Oxford with sabbaticals at Yale and international conferences. When I moved here (University of Otago, Dunedin) I was told that NZ$36000 a year was a good salary for a scientist. There is little cancer research and I had to switch fields. I found myself in a very junior role with no conferences, no travel, no responsibility and no where to park (At all!). My career went back by 15 years and was stuck there. Despite doing large amounts of work which proved several of the labs publications wrong and correcting them, I was told that I'd have to work hard for 3 years, publish multiple papers and then apply for promotion with several interviews required. If I was then lucky enough to be granted promotion I would get an extra $700 a year! WOW! The pay and conditions within the University were the worst I have ever known and there were more pompous, over-inflated old farts than I have ever known. I soon left for an external organisation involved in translational research aimed at treating spinal cord injury. The organisation and the conditions are good but the funding is very poor and severely limits our progress. I personally know of 7 research personnel who have left NZ in the last three years because of the conditions. An Associate Professor I talk to has applied for 19 grants in the last year and only got 0.3 of a position in funding. Sir Walter asked me why I wanted to go to NZ and quote 'There is no science in NZ as far as I am concerned.' Unfortunately I have to say that he was right. I had e-mail contact with Lord Robert Winston who is also fully aware of the situation in NZ and does not agree with the funding.
All this means that we have struggled continuously to meet the bills with the killer mortgage rate.
We had a jetski for a while and being close to the harbour was good for an evening jaunt but that too had to go to pay bills! We also started SCUBA diving but with work and renovation pressures we haven't got out much. We have an 8 year old child which ties us up, we can't leave him sat there until we surface!
All in all there are and have been good points but generally we are worse off and for me personally in science I don't see any future. My wife works in a local office shuffling paper and get paid more than me and a permanent position as opposed to my short term contracts. The immigration service will tell you that there is a shortage of scientists and heavy investment in science in NZ. Any scientist in NZ will tell you quite the opposite.

Thats a brief outline! Well you asked!

scubadoo

Hi - yes I know of a lot of people heading to Oz. I'm not sure because of the bigger cities, heavier traffic, more crime and more expensive housing. I could easily find myself better off than in NZ but still worse than in England. I should never have done science, almost anything else would have been better. Fortunately I can build houses, plumb, re-spray vehicles, rebuild engines etc but I can't get paid for that without getting qualified.
We might give Oz a go in the next year to see how it fits but we don't want to lose our house in NZ, just got to cover the mortgage. Other than that we could give Canada a go, don't really fancy the US at the moment. Or back to good old England perhaps! If only I was a spark or a plumber or a builder or a.............liar....sorry lawyer.

Lenmil

No good being in the building trade now mate. It's gone bad.

crap coffee

A pharmacist said exactly the same thing to me - Being a pharmacist is Not Fun + cr*P wages + no brilliant future. He (bitter) regrets deeply - should have done Computer Science

Lenmil

Seems a common thing now. A bloke i know sold his chemists to Boots or similar big chain as there was no money in it. Now every where you see Boots have taken over. Looks like most trades have been ruined by big business. Mine included by the way, and im a jeweller/goldsmith or shall i say was.:curse:

Dustybin

Mrs Bin is a scientist also working for the Uni of Otago. Her wage is comparable (if not slightly more) than she was getting as a post doc in the UK. Yep there is no funding and there is always the worry that when the current project ends that there will be nothing else. Saying that, there is a risk of that in the UK aswell. I know a few scientists and i don't think any of them do it for the money!

The major problem is the funding, but the actual support, working conditions are good. The govenment over here has just signed a few deals with the UK and Europe to attract more collabrative work. Where Mrs Bin is they are looking at private investment and finding links between the research they are carrying out and the private sector.

Oh and I'm guessing the compared to Oxford Uni it is very different, but funding in the 'lesser' uni's is still a major problem in the UK too.

Just the other side to balance it out

Batty

Yep, I have seen the various arguments and complaints about lack of funding for research here - I'm hopeful a more pragmatic Government might see things differently but who knows?

In your posts you've name dropped quite a bit - do you do that in your day to day life? I only ask because ....... well, I also worked for a SIR for a couple of years in London and apart from it being on my CV it's not something I throw about - it's very hard to do without coming across as a bit of a show off. This is not just relevant to NZ - I've worked in other countries since and the same applied - anywhere you have to talk to people -and when it's your colleagues it just looks like you (not you personally per se) feel superior to them. Just my tuppence - there are usually more aspects to promotion than just experience.

southerner

In some ways it is being pragmatic to say NZ will never be a science powerhouse across a wide spectrum of fields, and therefore to concentrate any funds that are available into certain endeavours such as agriculture and other primary industries.

Gill and Rob

Sorry NZ has not been ideal for you, however a little bit of reserach before hand would have quickly indicated that $36,000 is not a do-able wage to live on. Even 3 years ago new qualified nurses were earning more than that.

Good luck with whatever you do next.

Gill

Batty

I'd agree that 'acroos a wide spectrum of fields' isn't any good - is it ever really? But NZ has punched above its weight in the past and it'd be a shame to never be able to do that again because of lack of funding. I can imagine the frustration of being 'so close' - or maybe I just watch too much TV

drrobert

It sounds like you have had an unfortunate experience.

I work in biomedical research in NZ, and my experience has been rather different. In terms of purchasing power, my salary here is similar to what it would be in the UK, funding for international conference travel has been forthcoming, parking is provided, and the lab has great facilities. People come and go, but that happens in science. Having said that, I did secure the position and grant before making the move from the UK.

littleal

Interesting thread Scubadoo. I'm not a scientist but I do work in this area so understand your frustrations. You are so eloquent and you have Lord Winston's ear - have you tried voicing these opinions to Peter Hodgson?