Originally Posted by southerner

There have been plenty of threads recently debating certain pros and cons of living in NZ - some of them have been healthy and some have gone a bit over the top in their tribalism. But in general they got me thinking (perhaps thats a good thing, or perhaps not)

Now excuse me if the following is over analysed but ultimately I will get to my question for everyone.

What I'm thinking is:

a) every country has its good and bad points

b) therefore every country has some things that ideally they could teach other countries, and other things they could ideally take on board from other countries. Or maybe thats a bit simplistic, as what is best for one does not always translate as best for another (I originally typed that as a question, but on reflection it must be true, otherwise all countries in the world would be homogeneous).

c) most perceived problems with NZ are readily agreed by most people - who does not agree that the hoon problem exists in some cities and towns, or that domestic violence is wrong, or housing needs improving.

d) migrants to a country probably see problems and opportunities more clearly than those who have lived here all their lives - correspondingly I note that those migrants who have been here longer tend to be more laidback about the issues (do they get used to them, learn to have wisdom to accept what they cannot change, or is it a selection bias?)

e) migrants may be a key catalyst for change in NZ, if they can effectively influence and mobilise a wider audience

f) kiwis are parochial - whether you like it or not, thats a fact that people need to work with. Its part of the human nature of the country, reflecting history and culture. I would like to suggest it is not going to change any time soon. Also, whether you like it or not, there is a typecasting in NZ (and many other countries) of people from England as being "whinging poms".

g) raising issues with any country on an emigration forum might be effective in informing other potential migrants of those issues. But it doesn't address the underlying issues themselves.

h) making changes takes time, it is easier to do nothing that to do something, and some (maybe most) people subscribe to the view "it is better the devil you know".

So my question is - what can new immigrants do to change NZ for the better, using their special insight into their new country?

[And I'm being deliberately vague about what issues that might addressed, as I would hate to limit the discussion.]

My initial view is it usually needs to be something particularly tactful to be effective, perhaps aligned with locals. I'm interested in what others have found works, and what has not worked. Does have a sounding board for suggested improvements (the forum) help?

ps before anybody asks why an ex kiwi expat is asking, its because to a lesser degree the same issues exist for returning kiwis. I get as mad as the next guy about the ridiculous give way rule. But how I change it, and whether it is worth my while pursuing this is what I don't know.

Originally Posted by Heavenlyscent

in Rotorua they get all new immigrants together and ask them to write down their experiences good and bad so they can change and improve things

Originally Posted by Aucklander

I don't think you can change New Zealand.<snip> I will make the changes to where I choose to live rather than try to change the people & the country.

Ann

Originally Posted by happynz

Who organised that? Full marks for whomever did that.

Originally Posted by Heavenlyscent

Rotorua District Council as they are looking at ways of attracting and keeping British Immigrants At least one council is looking into the reasons why we Brits have some problems with the NZ way of doing things

Originally Posted by southerner

Originally Posted by Woodlea

Keep the Muslims out and NZ will end up being better then the rest of the world by default!!!

Originally Posted by Woodlea

Keep the Muslims out and NZ will end up being better then the rest of the world by default!!!

Originally Posted by fnord

Yeah, the Spanish should have kept them out back in 700 A.D. too.

Yep, it would have been much better to live like the rest of Europe in all its squalor. But, oh no, within two-hundred years the Moors had turned Al-Andalus into a bastion of culture, commerce and beauty. "Irrigation systems imported from Syria and Arabia turned the dry plains... into an agricultural cornucopia. The Arabs added pomegranates, oranges, lemons, aubergines, artichokes, cumin, coriander, bananas, almonds, pams, henna, woad, madder, saffron, sugar-cane, cotton, rice, figs, grapes, peaches, apricots and rice."

How terrible.

By the beginning of the ninth century, Moorish Spain was the gem of Europe with its capital city, Cordova. With the establishment of Abdurrahman III - "the great caliphate of Cordova" - came the golden age of Al-Andalus. Cordova, in southern Spain, was the intellectual center of Europe.

Could it get any worse? Surely England will show Spain how things should be.

Yes, at a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp", in Cordova "there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." The houses had marble balconies for summer and hot-air ducts under the mosaic floors for the winter. They were adorned with gardens with artificial fountains and orchards". "Paper, a material still unknown to the west, was everywhere. There were bookshops and more than seventy libraries."

So, Moors thawed out Europe from the Dark Ages, but, wait a minute, how is that possible? Muslims are bad, right?

Originally Posted by Am Loolah

I'm lost ... doesn't take much.

Originally Posted by fnord

I was trying to counter the poster's views about muslims entering a country being a bad thing by giving a positive example, albeit historic. Oh, well...back to the thread topic