How to change NZ?

Old Mar 18th 2008, 10:34 pm
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Default How to change NZ?

There have been plenty of threads recently debating certain pros and cons of living in NZ - some of them have been healthy and some have gone a bit over the top in their tribalism. But in general they got me thinking (perhaps thats a good thing, or perhaps not)

Now excuse me if the following is over analysed but ultimately I will get to my question for everyone.

What I'm thinking is:

a) every country has its good and bad points

b) therefore every country has some things that ideally they could teach other countries, and other things they could ideally take on board from other countries. Or maybe thats a bit simplistic, as what is best for one does not always translate as best for another (I originally typed that as a question, but on reflection it must be true, otherwise all countries in the world would be homogeneous).

c) most perceived problems with NZ are readily agreed by most people - who does not agree that the hoon problem exists in some cities and towns, or that domestic violence is wrong, or housing needs improving.

d) migrants to a country probably see problems and opportunities more clearly than those who have lived here all their lives - correspondingly I note that those migrants who have been here longer tend to be more laidback about the issues (do they get used to them, learn to have wisdom to accept what they cannot change, or is it a selection bias?)

e) migrants may be a key catalyst for change in NZ, if they can effectively influence and mobilise a wider audience

f) kiwis are parochial - whether you like it or not, thats a fact that people need to work with. Its part of the human nature of the country, reflecting history and culture. I would like to suggest it is not going to change any time soon. Also, whether you like it or not, there is a typecasting in NZ (and many other countries) of people from England as being "whinging poms".

g) raising issues with any country on an emigration forum might be effective in informing other potential migrants of those issues. But it doesn't address the underlying issues themselves.

h) making changes takes time, it is easier to do nothing that to do something, and some (maybe most) people subscribe to the view "it is better the devil you know".

So my question is - what can new immigrants do to change NZ for the better, using their special insight into their new country?

[And I'm being deliberately vague about what issues that might addressed, as I would hate to limit the discussion.]

My initial view is it usually needs to be something particularly tactful to be effective, perhaps aligned with locals. I'm interested in what others have found works, and what has not worked. Does have a sounding board for suggested improvements (the forum) help?

ps before anybody asks why an ex kiwi expat is asking, its because to a lesser degree the same issues exist for returning kiwis. I get as mad as the next guy about the ridiculous give way rule. But how I change it, and whether it is worth my while pursuing this is what I don't know.
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 10:50 pm
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by southerner View Post
There have been plenty of threads recently debating certain pros and cons of living in NZ - some of them have been healthy and some have gone a bit over the top in their tribalism. But in general they got me thinking (perhaps thats a good thing, or perhaps not)

Now excuse me if the following is over analysed but ultimately I will get to my question for everyone.

What I'm thinking is:

a) every country has its good and bad points

b) therefore every country has some things that ideally they could teach other countries, and other things they could ideally take on board from other countries. Or maybe thats a bit simplistic, as what is best for one does not always translate as best for another (I originally typed that as a question, but on reflection it must be true, otherwise all countries in the world would be homogeneous).

c) most perceived problems with NZ are readily agreed by most people - who does not agree that the hoon problem exists in some cities and towns, or that domestic violence is wrong, or housing needs improving.

d) migrants to a country probably see problems and opportunities more clearly than those who have lived here all their lives - correspondingly I note that those migrants who have been here longer tend to be more laidback about the issues (do they get used to them, learn to have wisdom to accept what they cannot change, or is it a selection bias?)

e) migrants may be a key catalyst for change in NZ, if they can effectively influence and mobilise a wider audience

f) kiwis are parochial - whether you like it or not, thats a fact that people need to work with. Its part of the human nature of the country, reflecting history and culture. I would like to suggest it is not going to change any time soon. Also, whether you like it or not, there is a typecasting in NZ (and many other countries) of people from England as being "whinging poms".

g) raising issues with any country on an emigration forum might be effective in informing other potential migrants of those issues. But it doesn't address the underlying issues themselves.

h) making changes takes time, it is easier to do nothing that to do something, and some (maybe most) people subscribe to the view "it is better the devil you know".

So my question is - what can new immigrants do to change NZ for the better, using their special insight into their new country?

[And I'm being deliberately vague about what issues that might addressed, as I would hate to limit the discussion.]

My initial view is it usually needs to be something particularly tactful to be effective, perhaps aligned with locals. I'm interested in what others have found works, and what has not worked. Does have a sounding board for suggested improvements (the forum) help?

ps before anybody asks why an ex kiwi expat is asking, its because to a lesser degree the same issues exist for returning kiwis. I get as mad as the next guy about the ridiculous give way rule. But how I change it, and whether it is worth my while pursuing this is what I don't know.
I guess you could also ask,

What did you find not acceptable when you lived & worked outside New Zealand ?

What did you do to change your host country ?

Did that work ?
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 11:14 pm
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by southerner View Post
There have been plenty of threads recently debating certain pros and cons of living in NZ - some of them have been healthy and some have gone a bit over the top in their tribalism. But in general they got me thinking (perhaps thats a good thing, or perhaps not)

Now excuse me if the following is over analysed but ultimately I will get to my question for everyone.

What I'm thinking is:

a) every country has its good and bad points

b) therefore every country has some things that ideally they could teach other countries, and other things they could ideally take on board from other countries. Or maybe thats a bit simplistic, as what is best for one does not always translate as best for another (I originally typed that as a question, but on reflection it must be true, otherwise all countries in the world would be homogeneous).

c) most perceived problems with NZ are readily agreed by most people - who does not agree that the hoon problem exists in some cities and towns, or that domestic violence is wrong, or housing needs improving.

d) migrants to a country probably see problems and opportunities more clearly than those who have lived here all their lives - correspondingly I note that those migrants who have been here longer tend to be more laidback about the issues (do they get used to them, learn to have wisdom to accept what they cannot change, or is it a selection bias?)

e) migrants may be a key catalyst for change in NZ, if they can effectively influence and mobilise a wider audience

f) kiwis are parochial - whether you like it or not, thats a fact that people need to work with. Its part of the human nature of the country, reflecting history and culture. I would like to suggest it is not going to change any time soon. Also, whether you like it or not, there is a typecasting in NZ (and many other countries) of people from England as being "whinging poms".

g) raising issues with any country on an emigration forum might be effective in informing other potential migrants of those issues. But it doesn't address the underlying issues themselves.

h) making changes takes time, it is easier to do nothing that to do something, and some (maybe most) people subscribe to the view "it is better the devil you know".

So my question is - what can new immigrants do to change NZ for the better, using their special insight into their new country?

[And I'm being deliberately vague about what issues that might addressed, as I would hate to limit the discussion.]

My initial view is it usually needs to be something particularly tactful to be effective, perhaps aligned with locals. I'm interested in what others have found works, and what has not worked. Does have a sounding board for suggested improvements (the forum) help?

ps before anybody asks why an ex kiwi expat is asking, its because to a lesser degree the same issues exist for returning kiwis. I get as mad as the next guy about the ridiculous give way rule. But how I change it, and whether it is worth my while pursuing this is what I don't know.
I think you did that when you used the words "tribalism" and "whinging poms". The latter being I term I never heard uttered by a Kiwi in all the time I lived there, rather there was a perception that we all had buckets of cash.

You missed the most obvious solution to New Zealand's problems and that is union with Australia
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 11:33 pm
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by Nerine View Post
You missed the most obvious solution to New Zealand's problems and that is union with Australia
That presumes that Australia has no problems itself - not a view held be very many.

[but still - its an idea that probably appeals to more people as time goes by]
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 11:34 pm
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by Nerine View Post
...
You missed the most obvious solution to New Zealand's problems and that is union with Australia

I don't see how that would help?
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 11:37 pm
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Smile Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by southerner View Post
ps before anybody asks why an ex kiwi expat is asking, its because to a lesser degree the same issues exist for returning kiwis. I get as mad as the next guy about the ridiculous give way rule. But how I change it, and whether it is worth my while pursuing this is what I don't know.
I think this is a great post. The only way to change stuff is to lobby the people who have the power to change it...so with the Give Way rule you ultimately have to convince the Road Safety/Transport Minister but you could engage other potential allies such as the AA. They could conduct a survey showing everyone hates it and it's dangerous and out of line with every other country in the world and then present that to the politicians.

Changing anything is a long slow process...I can't help thinking the Give Way rule will die a death eventually as all immigrants (and there are a lot of us) can never trust that the the other party will give way so we have to hesitate and make sure before turning....I don't know any kiwis who think its a good rule either.

I think contentment with life here is to be found in 'recognising what may be changeable' such as the Give Way rule and introducing compulsory motor insurance; and learning to live with what probably isn't amenable to change....I won't speculate what these might be.
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 11:38 pm
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by Nerine View Post
"whinging poms"
Perhaps kiwis are more subtle in what they say in front of immigrants than I gave them credit for. I clearly stated it was a typecasting, so I would hope it does not detract from people being open with their views.
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Old Mar 18th 2008, 11:49 pm
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by southerner View Post
Perhaps kiwis are more subtle in what they say in front of immigrants than I gave them credit for. I clearly stated it was a typecasting, so I would hope it does not detract from people being open with their views.

So are they NOT so subtle when they are not talking to immigrants

If that is the case, then that would be a good place to start change.

Be open with your discussions and not say one thing ( or as you say - don't say) to immigrants and another to Kiwi's.
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:03 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

[Campbells - seem as how you are contributing to a thread I started, it seems a bit churlish of me to have you on ignore - so you're not now ]

Now, addressing your last post, I'm just surprised that any English immigrant to NZ, Australia or other countries is not aware of the stereotype.

I then inferred that some kiwis genuinely hold that view, and if Nerine had not been told it to her face then (a bit jokingly) I suggested that they must have been holding their tongues. Of course there could be many reasons Nerine has not experienced such a comment.

More seriously, if the answer to our problems is changing the kiwi psych, then we indeed have a long road ahead.
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:05 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by southerner View Post
Perhaps kiwis are more subtle in what they say in front of immigrants than I gave them credit for. I clearly stated it was a typecasting, so I would hope it does not detract from people being open with their views.
Whinging poms sounds good to me ..... just look at the forum
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:12 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

[QUOTE=southerner;6081765][Campbells - seem as how you are contributing to a thread I started, it seems a bit churlish of me to have you on ignore - so you're not now ]

Now, addressing your last post, I'm just surprised that any English immigrant to NZ, Australia or other countries is not aware of the stereotype.

I then inferred that some kiwis genuinely hold that view, and if Nerine had not been told it to her face then (a bit jokingly) I suggested that they must have been holding their tongues. Of course there could be many reasons Nerine has not experienced such a comment.

More seriously, if the answer to our problems is changing the kiwi psych, then we indeed have a long road ahead.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you want to put me back on ignore ??
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:13 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by southerner View Post
More seriously, if the answer to our problems is changing the kiwi psych, then we indeed have a long road ahead.
You will never change any nation's collective psyche on this..it is universal and stems from a fear of the unknown. So trying to change smaller issues would be more fruitful but maybe equally frustrating.
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:16 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by luvwelly View Post
I can't help thinking the Give Way rule will die a death eventually as all immigrants (and there are a lot of us) can never trust that the the other party will give way so we have to hesitate and make sure before turning....I don't know any kiwis who think its a good rule either.
I agree - but that said, every time the LTSA looks at it they say there is no case for a rule change. Even though most people hate it, it doesn't seem to cause death or injury, just some mild road rage.

Who has got Jon Key's ear - could be a vote winner.
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:18 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

Originally Posted by Campbells View Post
Maybe you want to put me back on ignore ??
No - I think I'll make you my pet project for the day
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Old Mar 19th 2008, 12:22 am
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Default Re: How to change NZ?

China has a 'good' method of changing a nation , look at what is happening in Tibet - flood it with Chinese and water-down the 'pysche' that way.

Bring Ozzies over to NZ in vast numbers, put them in charge of all the large corporations and institutions that they don't already own, get them standing for election in Local and National government, running government departments, put them in charge of schools and universities.

Look at the fuss over the stadium for the Rugby World Cup for example. Over here they'd not only "JFDI", they'd build the road to it, put in a rail link and build an enterprise park and housing development around the thing!
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