iaink

FI here in Ontario teaches in French French, not Quebecois.

Kind of a moot point anyway, we put up with the hassle because its a great opportunity for my kids to learn a language the easy way, and once you learn one its easier to learn others. What the language is is almost incidental, although of course French has its advantages in some parts of the employment market here.

The other reason its unimportant is that quebecois is only one of many regional french dialects anyway. For example, one of my neighbours is a francophone from New Brunswick, another was originally a francophone from N. Ontario/ Quebec border. The regional accents here are such that they converse together in English, its easier for them to understand each other!

Where I live I am not aware of any hysteria surrounding getting kids into the FI program, there are certainly asian and special needs kids in her classes. I dont think anyone expects its to provide an academic boost, probably the opposite is true up to a point, but my daughter loves French and would be mortified if we pulled her from the program. We figured we would try it as its available, and if it was too hard or not working out then there was nothing to lose by moving her out of it. So far so good. At present (grade 2) half her day is in French, and half in English. Science etc is done in French, Math in English and so on, and she gets As across the board. There is certainly no sense of "us and them" in the playground, she has friends in both programs.

Bevm

On French Immersion, basically what kiwilass said. Long post follows. This is the only "issue" I've ever really got involved with.

I did quite a bit of research on this subject when my kids were small because I was bothered by the way a lot of parents felt pressured to put their kids in FI and how that was weakening the education in English streams. Parents got the idea it was neglectful not to give their child this wonderful opportunity.

Of course this was in Ottawa, the government town, and it is true that a lot of Federal Government posts require bilingualism.

Kiwilass is correct that the original expert on this -- I've forgotten his name -- was attempting social engineering, not bilingualism per se, and not even general excellence in education.

She's also correct that a lot of parents choose it simply as a way of getting into what they see as an elite system. And they can be right. Though FI is theoretically available to all, there are far fewer poor or disabled children there, and as soon as a student gets into any difficulties the solution offered tends to be a move out of FI.

My main problem with it, however, is on the scientific side. Children go through stages where their brain is primed to a certain thing and one of them is language, but that's past by 5 or 6 (think about it, most children go to school with a pretty good grasp of their native tongue), so the idea that it's as easy for them as learning their first language isn't true. It's about the same as a younger adult (not us fogies with decaying brains*G*) turning up at work one day and being told that everything will now be in Finnish, and they'll get the hang of it.

Most children of 5 or 6 are actually into their knowledge acquisition and exploration phase of brain development -- they're sponges for it, full of what's that, why, when, how -- and that's hard when suddenly put back into not understanding what's being said.

There's even evidence that it's not particularly pleasant for the children, though few have anything to compare it to. I had a quote somewhere from the Ontario experts on FI where one scientist said she wasn't in favour of middle immersion -- about aged 10 -- because if they didn't get the kids into it before they had a choice, there wouldn't be many doing it.

There is daily French for students being educated in English, but it's mostly badly done by the weakest teachers because it's low status. If that was done well, there could easily be widespread bilingualism. After all, Europe has a lot of very biligual or trilingual people without immersion.

One of the telling points is that despite the Canadian French Immersion believers pushing the wonders of it no other country has adopted it as far as I know. (I'm not up to date.) There are immersion programs for immigrants -- for Mexicans in the US, for example, or perhaps in the UK. But not in the same way as in Canada.

Bev

iaink

Bev, did your kids do FI?

I cant speak for middle immersion, which on the face of it does not seem the best way to go, For us we started in FI in kindergarten. Its not at all like turning up at work and everything being in French, it starts gradually in JK and SK and gets ramped up over time. Even in grade 2 only half is in french. The advantage is it just sort of creeps up on her with no real effort. There is no real sit down "learning" of French as I remember it being taught. (which didnt work at all well for me, I struggle with languages)

Yes, there is some frustration in being able to express a scientific concept in english, but struggling for french vocabulary, but thats to be expected and is addressed by the school.

All I can go by is our own experience, and that is generally positive, we had concerns over one particular teacher, to the point we would have left the school, but in discussion with my daughter it is evident that she genuinely enjoys the french aspect and does not want to give it up. Fortunatley we were able to resolve the issues and remain in FI.

I agree there is a danger that it will dilute the teacing strength of French in the regular stream, although it seems to me that those teaching in FI are not primarily French teachers, rather they are junior school teachers who happen to teach in French.

Why would any other country take it up? Canada is Bilingual in its constitution, and FI is a more expensive program to run. Without Canadas unique history and the compromises that have come out of that there is no driving political force for paying the extra for FI programs, or even separate Catholic / Public boards in the case of Ontario.

I dont really see why this would be a factor in returning to the UK from Canada anyway, no one forces you to do FI. I'm sure there are many reasons for returning to the UK, but why the education system in Canada would be one is still a mystery to me.

ExKiwilass

These points. One of the negatives is that kids who struggle end up getting pushed out of FI, and having to go into a completely different school/classroom, which reinforces the idea that they've somehow "failed" Not to mention that creates even more resentment on the English side that we have to pick up the slack.

We may do late immersion if kid wants too. There's no evidence late immersion kids do any worse in FI than early, and some evidence they're more likely to carry on with it. Maybe because they actually get to choose? Early FI actually has quite the drop-out rate over the long term.

And to your last point, Bev, I agree. As someone I know said, why can't we just teach it as a second language? Why does it have to be immersion? I agree parents feel pressure to do FI. There's this idea that if they don't do FI they'll somehow never learn another language? It's such bollocks.

ExKiwilass

Not like that here. Full immersion from K on until Grade 3, I think, then they start introducing English again.

ExKiwilass

I am skeptical. Do they import the teachers directly from France?

iaink

Of course not. They speak French the way the vast majority of bilingual Candians do, for example in the government, canadian forces or at call centers across the country.

ExKiwilass

exactly my point

iaink

To dismiss it as Quebecois is similar to dismissing all English speakers as speaking Scouse. The majority of French speaking Canadians are not speaking Quebecois, but even if they were I dont think it really matters anyway to the general point of learning a language through immersion.

lilybilly101

I agree with so many points on here. I think FI is an amazing opportunity to learn 'French' whatever form it takes so long as it is taught well. I taught in the BC system and my experience is it is horribly under funded and very poor out dated teaching in the main with no one and I mean no one monitoring the teachers or the kids prgress.

Seniority means the teachers are hired on years not on skill and teachers rarely specialize teaching many subjects. I saw one recently - Math, Foods, Drama and PE teacher wanted for Middle School. WHAT????

Anyway, I have no personal anti -FI thing, I was just wondering.......what others felt. If I lived in Ontario there would be NO question as more job opportunities would be available as you said.

And I guess we will be leaving here eventually because of the education system due to the fact there is little to no job security in teaching here and I can have that back home.

dbd33

In the French language schools the answer is that the teachers are imported but not commonly from France. They come from Algeria, the Belgian Congo, Belgium itself, the Cote D'Ivoire, Lousiane, anywhere poor and francophone. I don't recall there being a teacher who was born in Canada.

lilybilly101

The system in Ontario is clearly really different than here. Parents are fighting to get kids in FI and there is a real distinction between FI kids and English. The teachers are generally FI educated so not sure again about the quality of the French. I don't care where my child goes so long as he/she is happy and learning! I wish there was more consistency in the schooling here.

lilybilly101

My hubby thinks if you train in FI you become an FI teacher especially if you're a girl!

ExKiwilass

actually I know some FI kids who have done that...har. I agree about the division between FI and English kids. I also think FI tends to attract certain kinds of parents, if you know what I mean.

I don't know what the deal is with francophone (as compared to FI) schools. But you can't go to those unless you have a francophone parent so I guess it's not really relevant for british expats...

Bevm

The FI I know (or knew. Perhaps it's all changed) is the complete immersion, so the child is taught completely in French and in the school I was familiar with, they were told off for any use of English in the classroom.

Anyway, it varies from place to place, and it works for some students. But it's not always a blessing. That's all.

Bev