UAE amidst the 'Arab Unrest'
Mar 14th 2011, 11:06 am
#46
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Re: UAE amidst the 'Arab Unrest'
So this is about you wanting to "win" in front of others in the forums? (most of whom won't be reading anyway). This should probably be taken to the Sand Pit now as it's going into politics which isn't a part of the main forum. Anyway if that’s the game you wish to play…
I never said anything about winning or losing. You bring that up yourself. As this is an open forum, quite rightly people should make up their own minds.
Let’s start with your “objectivity and logic”:
I have presented factual information that the UN Human Rights council being corrupt, bias and untrustworthy but you insist we must trust it simply because it is an international body
How is this logical and objective Please explain why 20,000 dead Sri Lankans and 300,000 languishing in camps does not merit a condemnation but praise) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7m5...feature=relmfu at the Human Rights council but Israel’s building of settlements on land taken in open warfare which they didn’t start must be the focal point? I want a UN who can be self-critical and reprimand all violators not just Israel...
I never referenced other conflicts deliberately as this is a ME forum and hence the continued topic of Israel/Palestine. You’re getting extremely defensive here. Of course human rights incidents occur (and unfortunately are occurring) all over the world. Sadly everyone knows that only too well. By you referencing the above, what are you trying to prove Do you expect me to deny the facts presented above? You use the terms land taken and open warfare so casually.
On April 15, 2002, the Commission approved a resolution affirming the right of the Palestinians to fight Israel by "all available means, including armed struggle" in order to achieve independence. In so doing, the Palestinian people was declared "fulfilling its mission, one of the goals and purposes of the United Nations". The 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) drew up the Human Rights Commission resolution, backed by co-sponsors China, Cuba and Vietnam…all upstanding States with sterling Human Rights records of their own that we should all listen to seriously right?
Why do you think they approved it? Maybe because one side has a fully fledged army (with Nuclear Weapons) and the other are no better than a third world country with a population of refugees?
Please explain the legitimacy of a body where half the council is made up of countries that have not even signed up to the Charter of Human Rights
Like I have said before the UN (for all its rights and wrongs) is the international body in place to deliberate on all world issues.
The UNCHR was criticized for failing to apply the charter's standards to all-member states. When issues such as the stoning of women, honor killings, genital mutilations, and the apostasy death penalty were raised during the 60th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights in 2004,[13][14] Muslim officials rejected "any criticism as interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state.
Unfortunately it seems that you are turning this into a pseudo Arab Muslim vs the rest of the world argument. We all know the situation of the Muslim arab world; good, bad or indifferent. With regards the issues you bring up, what do you want me to say? Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Are you starting to see how this body is a joke…an insult to the victims of abuse worldwide? Crimes against humanity only apply to one state it seems. Hence my objections and suspicion. If this is a trial we must hear both sides no?
As I have stated previously, the UN has to be respected.
UN Observers have been in Israel for many years BTW.
BTW - Short term observers are different from Peace Keepers!
Self-critical? I think you mean critical? This is the first time you have bothered to read what I posted in its correct context. You accused me of being condescending previously but you have yet to comment on anything wrong the Arabs neighbours of Israel do beyond a bit of corruption and inept politicians. It seems Israel is like the Third Reich or Stalinist Russia and the Arabs are some noble people, who contribute greatly to humanity and who are absolved of any wrongdoing by merit of them not being supported by the USA and/or losing wars of attempted genocide they started.
You’re just being too defensive here and concocting ridiculous and extreme comparisons. You again resort to bringing in, the "Arabs". My defence is of the Oppressed People of Palestine and not of the wider Arabs of the region. You’re making wrong assumptions here.
Israel is far more self-critical that any of its neighbours. The Arabs can do no wrong, most will not even recognise Israel and have invented a fictional country called Palestine to facilitate it's destruction. Ask an Arab about the Arab-Africa slave trade or the fact that the first crusade came three centuries after a third of Christendom was annexed by Arab Islamic forces or better still just ask them how come there were no calls for a Palestinian state before 1967? Why won't you address the fact that the Arabs have turned down a two state solution at least twice?
Why are you finger pointing on the rest of the wider Arab countries? This debate isnt about the wider Arab Vs Israeli behaviours. What was tabled as part of the two state solution did not represent a fair proposal. East Jerusalem was not put forward as the Capital of Palestine, Israel having to return to Pre 67 Borders, a freeze of illegal settlements building and the right of return for the displaced refuges of Palestine. Those preconditions were not part of the proposal, thats why it was turned down. It was an unfair solution.
It's no different to people who find positive things about Israel being called "right wing Zionists" is it? I am merely using the left’s tactic of sound-bite argument closers to demonstrate how little is being achieved in this debate.. There's nothing courageous about speaking against Israel...most of dictatorships that run the UN Human Rights council and the media do it every day. I challenge you to speak out against female genital mutilation in the Muslim world and see how far you get...
To speak out against any movement takes courage, certainly if an individual does it.
The analogy to FW De Klerk is poor to say the least since the Jews were there first and were always there. After 2000 years of mass exile they have returned in numbers whereas the whites were not in South Africa first. Do you require evidence for this? Also, Apartheid was removed by peaceful talks not brainwashing children to murder Jews…something even other Arabs sometimes see with horror and dismay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M529qurtDY0
You are bringing 2000 year old history as a means of justification? The previous video link commented on Desmond Tutu having visited Israel and mentioning that Apartheid South Africa was not as bas as the present situation in Palestine. A man more qualified to talk about apartheid than you or I, making a damning statement. To me that is very telling indeed!
So the number of resolutions against a state determines its rogue status? Despite the evidence weighing up in favour of an untrustworthy and unreliable UN you’re still using them as your benchmark to judge the only democratic state in the Middle East? Isn't that a bit anti-intellectual? Seems you're seeing the world through ideological eyes instead.
A state that parades its self on the world stage as a democratic one but then oppresses people at the same time? That smacks of double standards. The sheer number of resolutions against it surely portrays it in a negative light than a positive one.
I asked you to find me a Palestinian who has died of hunger…can you address that please? For an oppressed people they seem to have a lot of guns, bombs and rockets!
Is the starving of children somehow perversely worse than the humiliation they face? You left out that they also have a lot of stones!
Find me an Israel who has been put in jail for asking for free and fair elections? Find me an Israeli who has been stoned to death for adultery or being homosexual (you can ask that one at the Tel Aviv Gay Pride festival if you like!). How many Jews do you know who have been killed for changing their religion?
That is an easy one!
Mordechai Vanunu, the former Israeli nuclear technician who, citing his opposition to weapons of mass destruction, revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986. He was subsequently lured to Italy by a female Mossad agent, where he was drugged and kidnapped by Israeli intelligence agents. He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted in a trial that was held behind closed doors. Vanunu spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 years in solitary confinement! That’s pretty shocking if you ask me.
I said it before – let us indeed look at Israel when it does wrong and see to it that it is reprimanded…but to compare Israel to North Korea or Iran or Sudan is ridiculous – and based only on a corrupt UN which openly admits it’s bias?
This is like believing everything Stalin said about capitalists or McCarthy said about Communists.
Why? Is this a trial by jury where we present our case and the members of the board give verdict?
This is an open forum and people are free to judge as they read this.
Sagely advice from Master Kong. I just spent Chinese New Year in China and happen to know a few things about the Middle Country. Ironically the Chinese are known as the Jews of Asia...except no one calls into question the existence of their country (but we do have a lot of humbug about Tibet...another issue where the media rules over the facts).
Its sad that you label someone so universally revered as Confucius as "Master Kong". You may as well make the stereotypical slitty eyed gesture whilst you’re at it as well
It is tiresome to debate the Arab-Israeli conflict with someone who insists on taking on board only evidence from a corrupt UN body of states who are declared enemies of Israel and who won’t take criticism against their own major problems...I have, from the beginning agreed Israel is not above criticism but this apparently has not been enough to move past this point has it?
I refer to my earlier sentiments about rocking horses.
This Jewish Proverb (hopefully you wont flippantly dismiss it) can teach us ALL a very valuable lesson.
It is sad but so true:-
If there is bitterness in the heart, sugar in the mouth won't make life sweeter
N.
PS: Did you look up Amin Al Husseini yet, Arafat's (that's the Egyptian born and bred Yasser Arafat whose tribe is from Syria leader of the PLO) mentor who went to visit Hitler during WWII to give support to the Third Reich's efforts to wipe out the Jews from the earth? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrrBTi4Qa9c
I never said anything about winning or losing. You bring that up yourself. As this is an open forum, quite rightly people should make up their own minds.
Let’s start with your “objectivity and logic”:
I have presented factual information that the UN Human Rights council being corrupt, bias and untrustworthy but you insist we must trust it simply because it is an international body
How is this logical and objective Please explain why 20,000 dead Sri Lankans and 300,000 languishing in camps does not merit a condemnation but praise) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7m5...feature=relmfu at the Human Rights council but Israel’s building of settlements on land taken in open warfare which they didn’t start must be the focal point? I want a UN who can be self-critical and reprimand all violators not just Israel...I never referenced other conflicts deliberately as this is a ME forum and hence the continued topic of Israel/Palestine. You’re getting extremely defensive here. Of course human rights incidents occur (and unfortunately are occurring) all over the world. Sadly everyone knows that only too well. By you referencing the above, what are you trying to prove
Do you expect me to deny the facts presented above? You use the terms land taken and open warfare so casually. On April 15, 2002, the Commission approved a resolution affirming the right of the Palestinians to fight Israel by "all available means, including armed struggle" in order to achieve independence. In so doing, the Palestinian people was declared "fulfilling its mission, one of the goals and purposes of the United Nations". The 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) drew up the Human Rights Commission resolution, backed by co-sponsors China, Cuba and Vietnam…all upstanding States with sterling Human Rights records of their own that we should all listen to seriously right?
Why do you think they approved it? Maybe because one side has a fully fledged army (with Nuclear Weapons) and the other are no better than a third world country with a population of refugees?
Please explain the legitimacy of a body where half the council is made up of countries that have not even signed up to the Charter of Human Rights
Like I have said before the UN (for all its rights and wrongs) is the international body in place to deliberate on all world issues.
The UNCHR was criticized for failing to apply the charter's standards to all-member states. When issues such as the stoning of women, honor killings, genital mutilations, and the apostasy death penalty were raised during the 60th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights in 2004,[13][14] Muslim officials rejected "any criticism as interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state.
Unfortunately it seems that you are turning this into a pseudo Arab Muslim vs the rest of the world argument. We all know the situation of the Muslim arab world; good, bad or indifferent. With regards the issues you bring up, what do you want me to say? Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Are you starting to see how this body is a joke…an insult to the victims of abuse worldwide? Crimes against humanity only apply to one state it seems. Hence my objections and suspicion. If this is a trial we must hear both sides no?
As I have stated previously, the UN has to be respected.
UN Observers have been in Israel for many years BTW.
BTW - Short term observers are different from Peace Keepers!
Self-critical? I think you mean critical? This is the first time you have bothered to read what I posted in its correct context. You accused me of being condescending previously but you have yet to comment on anything wrong the Arabs neighbours of Israel do beyond a bit of corruption and inept politicians. It seems Israel is like the Third Reich or Stalinist Russia and the Arabs are some noble people, who contribute greatly to humanity and who are absolved of any wrongdoing by merit of them not being supported by the USA and/or losing wars of attempted genocide they started.
You’re just being too defensive here and concocting ridiculous and extreme comparisons. You again resort to bringing in, the "Arabs". My defence is of the Oppressed People of Palestine and not of the wider Arabs of the region. You’re making wrong assumptions here.
Israel is far more self-critical that any of its neighbours. The Arabs can do no wrong, most will not even recognise Israel and have invented a fictional country called Palestine to facilitate it's destruction. Ask an Arab about the Arab-Africa slave trade or the fact that the first crusade came three centuries after a third of Christendom was annexed by Arab Islamic forces or better still just ask them how come there were no calls for a Palestinian state before 1967? Why won't you address the fact that the Arabs have turned down a two state solution at least twice?
Why are you finger pointing on the rest of the wider Arab countries? This debate isnt about the wider Arab Vs Israeli behaviours. What was tabled as part of the two state solution did not represent a fair proposal. East Jerusalem was not put forward as the Capital of Palestine, Israel having to return to Pre 67 Borders, a freeze of illegal settlements building and the right of return for the displaced refuges of Palestine. Those preconditions were not part of the proposal, thats why it was turned down. It was an unfair solution.
It's no different to people who find positive things about Israel being called "right wing Zionists" is it? I am merely using the left’s tactic of sound-bite argument closers to demonstrate how little is being achieved in this debate.. There's nothing courageous about speaking against Israel...most of dictatorships that run the UN Human Rights council and the media do it every day. I challenge you to speak out against female genital mutilation in the Muslim world and see how far you get...
To speak out against any movement takes courage, certainly if an individual does it.
The analogy to FW De Klerk is poor to say the least since the Jews were there first and were always there. After 2000 years of mass exile they have returned in numbers whereas the whites were not in South Africa first. Do you require evidence for this? Also, Apartheid was removed by peaceful talks not brainwashing children to murder Jews…something even other Arabs sometimes see with horror and dismay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M529qurtDY0
You are bringing 2000 year old history as a means of justification? The previous video link commented on Desmond Tutu having visited Israel and mentioning that Apartheid South Africa was not as bas as the present situation in Palestine. A man more qualified to talk about apartheid than you or I, making a damning statement. To me that is very telling indeed!
So the number of resolutions against a state determines its rogue status? Despite the evidence weighing up in favour of an untrustworthy and unreliable UN you’re still using them as your benchmark to judge the only democratic state in the Middle East? Isn't that a bit anti-intellectual? Seems you're seeing the world through ideological eyes instead.
A state that parades its self on the world stage as a democratic one but then oppresses people at the same time? That smacks of double standards. The sheer number of resolutions against it surely portrays it in a negative light than a positive one.
I asked you to find me a Palestinian who has died of hunger…can you address that please? For an oppressed people they seem to have a lot of guns, bombs and rockets!
Is the starving of children somehow perversely worse than the humiliation they face? You left out that they also have a lot of stones!
Find me an Israel who has been put in jail for asking for free and fair elections? Find me an Israeli who has been stoned to death for adultery or being homosexual (you can ask that one at the Tel Aviv Gay Pride festival if you like!). How many Jews do you know who have been killed for changing their religion?
That is an easy one!
Mordechai Vanunu, the former Israeli nuclear technician who, citing his opposition to weapons of mass destruction, revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986. He was subsequently lured to Italy by a female Mossad agent, where he was drugged and kidnapped by Israeli intelligence agents. He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted in a trial that was held behind closed doors. Vanunu spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 years in solitary confinement! That’s pretty shocking if you ask me.
I said it before – let us indeed look at Israel when it does wrong and see to it that it is reprimanded…but to compare Israel to North Korea or Iran or Sudan is ridiculous – and based only on a corrupt UN which openly admits it’s bias?
This is like believing everything Stalin said about capitalists or McCarthy said about Communists.
Why? Is this a trial by jury where we present our case and the members of the board give verdict?
This is an open forum and people are free to judge as they read this.
Sagely advice from Master Kong. I just spent Chinese New Year in China and happen to know a few things about the Middle Country. Ironically the Chinese are known as the Jews of Asia...except no one calls into question the existence of their country (but we do have a lot of humbug about Tibet...another issue where the media rules over the facts).
Its sad that you label someone so universally revered as Confucius as "Master Kong". You may as well make the stereotypical slitty eyed gesture whilst you’re at it as well
It is tiresome to debate the Arab-Israeli conflict with someone who insists on taking on board only evidence from a corrupt UN body of states who are declared enemies of Israel and who won’t take criticism against their own major problems...I have, from the beginning agreed Israel is not above criticism but this apparently has not been enough to move past this point has it?
I refer to my earlier sentiments about rocking horses.
This Jewish Proverb (hopefully you wont flippantly dismiss it) can teach us ALL a very valuable lesson.
It is sad but so true:-
If there is bitterness in the heart, sugar in the mouth won't make life sweeter
N.
PS: Did you look up Amin Al Husseini yet, Arafat's (that's the Egyptian born and bred Yasser Arafat whose tribe is from Syria leader of the PLO) mentor who went to visit Hitler during WWII to give support to the Third Reich's efforts to wipe out the Jews from the earth? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrrBTi4Qa9c
Sadly this tit for tat is not proving anything!
Last edited by UK PM 81; Mar 14th 2011 at 11:41 am.
Mar 14th 2011, 11:36 pm
#47
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Re: UAE amidst the 'Arab Unrest'
Theres no point in taking this debate any further.
When jews talk about 2000 year old history, God given land of the jews, the chosen people, etc. As part of what the Torah (Genesis and Exodus) says then....
You're indirectly bringing your belief into the debate. There could be an infinite amount of resolutions against Israel, it wont make a difference. Whatever has been discussed doesnt matter one jot.
You believe that Israel is the land for the chosen people (i.e. only jews). Period.
Goyims or gentiles, be they Palestinian Arab Muslims or Christians shouldnt be there in the first place. Regardless of places like the Dome of the Rock being sacred to all faiths.
When jews talk about 2000 year old history, God given land of the jews, the chosen people, etc. As part of what the Torah (Genesis and Exodus) says then....
You're indirectly bringing your belief into the debate. There could be an infinite amount of resolutions against Israel, it wont make a difference. Whatever has been discussed doesnt matter one jot.
You believe that Israel is the land for the chosen people (i.e. only jews). Period.
Goyims or gentiles, be they Palestinian Arab Muslims or Christians shouldnt be there in the first place. Regardless of places like the Dome of the Rock being sacred to all faiths.
אני מתפלל לשלום וסובלנות.
Mar 15th 2011, 4:43 am
#48
MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,373
Re: UAE amidst the 'Arab Unrest'
Theres no point in taking this debate any further.
When jews talk about 2000 year old history, God given land of the jews, the chosen people, etc. As part of what the Torah (Genesis and Exodus) says then....
You're indirectly bringing your belief into the debate. There could be an infinite amount of resolutions against Israel, it wont make a difference. Whatever has been discussed doesnt matter one jot.
You believe that Israel is the land for the chosen people (i.e. only jews). Period.
Goyims or gentiles, be they Palestinian Arab Muslims or Christians shouldnt be there in the first place. Regardless of places like the Dome of the Rock being sacred to all faiths.
When jews talk about 2000 year old history, God given land of the jews, the chosen people, etc. As part of what the Torah (Genesis and Exodus) says then....
You're indirectly bringing your belief into the debate. There could be an infinite amount of resolutions against Israel, it wont make a difference. Whatever has been discussed doesnt matter one jot.
You believe that Israel is the land for the chosen people (i.e. only jews). Period.
Goyims or gentiles, be they Palestinian Arab Muslims or Christians shouldnt be there in the first place. Regardless of places like the Dome of the Rock being sacred to all faiths.
אני מתפלל לשלום וסובלנות.
Belief is sadly a part of the conflict. It's a major stumbling block for any sort of peace. Ironically almost half of Israelis are agnostic and atheist, only being culturally Jewish.
I never said once I believe Israel is the land for the chosen people. I find the idea of a "chosen people" to be morally questionable. I said clearly Jews have historical precedent over the land...something provable - not quotes and mumbo jumbo from bronze age scribblings. Israel has 1.2 million Arab citizens who under law enjoy equal rights -Arabs have been in senior government and military positions since the 1940s. Arabs have been killed alongside Jews when terrorists strike.
Your remarks about the Dome of the Rock are quite laughable - it is a monument to Islamic conquest, built partially over the Jewish temple destroyed by the Romans 1900 years ago. To suggest it is sacred to Christians or Jews is probably insulting to people who follow those beliefs...as insulting as it is to suggest the other monuments to Islamic conquest like "Istanbul" are sacred to the Orthodox Christians who were butchered and enslaved by the Ottomans.
I will reply because there are some points, particular your ignorant response about "Master Kong" and Desmond Tutu which do need addressing...
Up to you if you want to reply...would prefer if it was in English or German or Chinese...I am not familiar with Hebrew and don't want to spend time looking up translations online.
N.
Last edited by Norm_uk; Mar 15th 2011 at 4:50 am.
Mar 15th 2011, 5:52 am
#49
MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,373
Re: UAE amidst the 'Arab Unrest'
I never referenced other conflicts deliberately as this is a ME forum and hence the continued topic of Israel/Palestine. You’re getting extremely defensive here. Of course human rights incidents occur (and unfortunately are occurring) all over the world. Sadly everyone knows that only too well. By you referencing the above, what are you trying to prove Do you expect me to deny the facts presented above? You use the terms land taken and open warfare so casually.
No it does not. Give respect where it is due. I see little at the UN beyond its food aid programs that demand respect. You do however which makes me question your ability to make sound judgements. Balance and fairness does not seem to interest you.
Israel has been asked at least once to contribute to peacekeeping by the UN. Israel has supplied UN troops with advanced gear, medicines and personnel because most Western countries don't send enough troops to the peacekeeping forces. Maybe they can keep their own peace?
Why are you finger pointing on the rest of the wider Arab countries? This debate isnt about the wider Arab Vs Israeli behaviours. What was tabled as part of the two state solution did not represent a fair proposal. East Jerusalem was not put forward as the Capital of Palestine, Israel having to return to Pre 67 Borders, a freeze of illegal settlements building and the right of return for the displaced refuges of Palestine. Those preconditions were not part of the proposal, thats why it was turned down. It was an unfair solution.
You are bringing 2000 year old history as a means of justification? The previous video link commented on Desmond Tutu having visited Israel and mentioning that Apartheid South Africa was not as bas as the present situation in Palestine. A man more qualified to talk about apartheid than you or I, making a damning statement. To me that is very telling indeed!
Tutu needs his head examined if he said that. What he actually said was comparing check points in 2002 to the treatment of blacks in South Africa. He also told world leaders not to go to the Beijing Olympics in protest against China's actions in Tibet (another media fraud) and has praised the Dalai Lama often. He's in the UN pocket too by the way - so he's suspect in my eyes.
This allegation of apartheid in Israel is deeply misleading. There are 1.1 million Arab Israeli citizens and several Arab political parties; Arab-Muslim legislators have veto powers; and Arab parties have overturned disqualifications. You can also look up Emile Habibi, who has been awarded prestigious prizes in Israel. Israel has a fee Arab press, road signs all over the country are in Arabic and Hebrew and Arabs live and study alongside Jews.
Palestinian refugees are not Israeli citizens...they are currently stateless because their neighbours won't absorb them - used as a scapegoat to further demonise their enemy, Israel...and it works well doesn't it?
And rockets – between 2001 & 2009 over 8900 rockets were fired into Israel leading to 28 deaths and hundreds of injuries. Not to mention the psychological trauma of people having live in shelters for almost a decade. But if the IDF responds they are oppressors right? If you see a lion and you throw stones at it and it attacks is the lion to blame?
An example of a man who leaked state secrets, in particular a state that is surrounded by enemies. The man was treated very badly and spent a long time in jail...um...
Meanwhile in Tel Aviv the Gay Pride festivals are well underway, the highest ratio of women with degrees and female entrepreneur continues...but they locked up a scientist for spilling state secrets! No one else does that except them right?
I'll ignore you slitty eyed remark - I am not back a month from a three week vacation to China, my fiancé is from Hunan and I don't need to prove my knowledge or understanding of Chinese culture to people who can't even pronounce the names of famous historical figures outside of an Anglicised context.
N.
