Riyadh
Aug 29th 2007, 6:43 pm
#31
patience...is a virtue!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Location: Lincolnshire...England
Posts: 210
Re: Riyadh
Maranelloman - women most certainly do NOT have to cover their faces. Some non-Saudi/expat women don't even cover their hair (although they all carry a scarf with them to put over their heads if the muttawa get uppity).
The big stores (including good old kosher M&S) mostly have 'women only' floors these days so that they can walk around freely, trying on clothes etc, without an abaya at all. The M&S at Kingdom Tower is one such place.
The authorities have clamped down on the muttawa lately, so there is a bit of a breathing space in that sense. More people are standing up to them, including Saudi women.
You asked about work. Since I assume you are not going to be working on the check-outs, you will no doubt come into contact with some well-educated Saudis and others of Arab persuasion. The Saudis are the best of the lot, hands down, thumbs up. They are more willing to learn, they show more respect for your 'Western' experience, and if you have your family with you they respect you even more (as THEY know how tough it can be for expat women). I've worked in every GCC country except Qatar - as far as locals are concerned, you can keep the lot of them, especially the Emiratis and the Kuwaitis - the Saudis will do nicely.
And if you make an effort to learn and absorb some of their culture, the sky is the limit. I'm proud to say I did that, and more. On a number of occasions I was invited to the family homes of Saudi colleagues to share Friday lunch with them and their families - unusual honour for a Westerner.
I've been back (for the fourth time) for exactly two weeks - and it feels like I've never been away. It sounds strange to those who haven't experienced it, but there is something about the place that drags you back. I gave up Dubai to be here.
Compound life? It's fine, as everyone knows everyone else is in the same position, so they all seem to try harder for each other. I am still in regular (albeit only e-mail) contact with people I met when I first went there in 1992 - and they are now scattered everywhere from NZ to Sweden.
The hardest thing to get used to in some ways is........ no easy way to say this........ the machine-gun posts, which are now scattered everywhere that is considered a 'Western' location. They have had them outside compounds for years, but this time I notice them outside hotels and government buildings. They are also outside the bank where I work. I'm used to them now, so I just wave at the sentries and drive through, smiles all round.
It seems to be working, as there hasn't been any 'trouble' for some years.
Still, I can't decide for you - but you might also want to bear in mind that there's nothing to spend your money on, so you'll come back wealthier than when you went in.
The big stores (including good old kosher M&S) mostly have 'women only' floors these days so that they can walk around freely, trying on clothes etc, without an abaya at all. The M&S at Kingdom Tower is one such place.
The authorities have clamped down on the muttawa lately, so there is a bit of a breathing space in that sense. More people are standing up to them, including Saudi women.
You asked about work. Since I assume you are not going to be working on the check-outs, you will no doubt come into contact with some well-educated Saudis and others of Arab persuasion. The Saudis are the best of the lot, hands down, thumbs up. They are more willing to learn, they show more respect for your 'Western' experience, and if you have your family with you they respect you even more (as THEY know how tough it can be for expat women). I've worked in every GCC country except Qatar - as far as locals are concerned, you can keep the lot of them, especially the Emiratis and the Kuwaitis - the Saudis will do nicely.
And if you make an effort to learn and absorb some of their culture, the sky is the limit. I'm proud to say I did that, and more. On a number of occasions I was invited to the family homes of Saudi colleagues to share Friday lunch with them and their families - unusual honour for a Westerner.
I've been back (for the fourth time) for exactly two weeks - and it feels like I've never been away. It sounds strange to those who haven't experienced it, but there is something about the place that drags you back. I gave up Dubai to be here.
Compound life? It's fine, as everyone knows everyone else is in the same position, so they all seem to try harder for each other. I am still in regular (albeit only e-mail) contact with people I met when I first went there in 1992 - and they are now scattered everywhere from NZ to Sweden.
The hardest thing to get used to in some ways is........ no easy way to say this........ the machine-gun posts, which are now scattered everywhere that is considered a 'Western' location. They have had them outside compounds for years, but this time I notice them outside hotels and government buildings. They are also outside the bank where I work. I'm used to them now, so I just wave at the sentries and drive through, smiles all round.
It seems to be working, as there hasn't been any 'trouble' for some years.
Still, I can't decide for you - but you might also want to bear in mind that there's nothing to spend your money on, so you'll come back wealthier than when you went in.
Aug 29th 2007, 9:56 pm
#32
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: London & Brussels
Posts: 283
Re: Riyadh
Very good post. thanks.
Aug 30th 2007, 10:08 am
#33
Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Kuwait - Sringboard to Djibouti
Posts: 305
Re: Riyadh
I see you need Qatar to complete the set. I like, and agree with your antropology but personally am ok with the Kuwatis to be honest but as I positively enjoy living here then that is probably an influencer. Agreed on Emiratis. My least favoured are the Qataris - and the working environment is getting a bit out of hand with inflation. They probably think the same about me.
Aug 30th 2007, 11:38 am
#34
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Riyadh, Saudi
Posts: 61
Re: Riyadh
I'm still eagerly looking for an opportunity and would definitely consider Saudi ( Dean-any opportunities at the bank you're at? I'm in asset management and unfortunatley the Saudi stock market hasn't recovered from a year plus back so recruitment options low in depressed market).
All the best reecefam-I guess it's really what you make of it,,,
Aug 30th 2007, 12:43 pm
#35
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 2,675
Re: Riyadh
Here's a link to a South African forum-with a very positive spin on life in Saudi. The soft landing kit is excellent if you need an idea of what to expect on lifestyle, compounds etc.
I'm still eagerly looking for an opportunity and would definitely consider Saudi ( Dean-any opportunities at the bank you're at? I'm in asset management and unfortunatley the Saudi stock market hasn't recovered from a year plus back so recruitment options low in depressed market).
All the best reecefam-I guess it's really what you make of it,,,
I'm still eagerly looking for an opportunity and would definitely consider Saudi ( Dean-any opportunities at the bank you're at? I'm in asset management and unfortunatley the Saudi stock market hasn't recovered from a year plus back so recruitment options low in depressed market).
All the best reecefam-I guess it's really what you make of it,,,
We too, are eager on going back to KSA, lived there before, it was excellent!
Dean, or anybody, know of a position for an IT director or IT Network / Security director/ consultant?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
(Have been searching high and low, but these positions are far in between and seem to be given through the "Old Boys" network!)
Aug 30th 2007, 1:16 pm
#36
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: London & Brussels
Posts: 283
Re: Riyadh
Or if anyone can help me! Im looking for a Project/Programme management position pref in the Banking industry. I've got plenty of years PM experience in Banking and im a Prince 2 Practitioner.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Aug 30th 2007, 2:07 pm
#37
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: Riyadh
Send CVs privately to me at [email protected] if you like. Bear in mind there is still (officially at least) a "Saudization" programme, where if there is a suitably-qualified Saudi, he should be employed before or instead of a non-Saudi. Which means........
....... A senior Pakistani settlements/payments clerk got laid off this week - after 27 years. He had trained a Saudi to do the job - so HE was no longer needed.... Harsh but we all expect it, sooner or later.
And I'm moving into Kingdom Compound tomorrow, for those who know it.
Maranelloman - WHEN were you in Saudi??? Whenever I have been there, a muttawa wouldn't have DARED to exert his 'authority' over the occupants of a car.
Aug 30th 2007, 2:22 pm
#38
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: London & Brussels
Posts: 283
Re: Riyadh
What am I - a bleedin' job centre??? Seriously though - happy to do what I can.
Send CVs privately to me at [email protected] if you like. Bear in mind there is still (officially at least) a "Saudization" programme, where if there is a suitably-qualified Saudi, he should be employed before or instead of a non-Saudi. Which means........
....... A senior Pakistani settlements/payments clerk got laid off this week - after 27 years. He had trained a Saudi to do the job - so HE was no longer needed.... Harsh but we all expect it, sooner or later.
And I'm moving into Kingdom Compound tomorrow, for those who know it.
Maranelloman - WHEN were you in Saudi??? Whenever I have been there, a muttawa wouldn't have DARED to exert his 'authority' over the occupants of a car.
Send CVs privately to me at [email protected] if you like. Bear in mind there is still (officially at least) a "Saudization" programme, where if there is a suitably-qualified Saudi, he should be employed before or instead of a non-Saudi. Which means........
....... A senior Pakistani settlements/payments clerk got laid off this week - after 27 years. He had trained a Saudi to do the job - so HE was no longer needed.... Harsh but we all expect it, sooner or later.
And I'm moving into Kingdom Compound tomorrow, for those who know it.
Maranelloman - WHEN were you in Saudi??? Whenever I have been there, a muttawa wouldn't have DARED to exert his 'authority' over the occupants of a car.
Yeah this Saudization thing is a real pain. I could see it at the bank when I was there. BTW I was there in 2002-3. I remember Kingdom, nice place. I was at Green City Compound which was also nice but a bit smaller. Location was good.
As for the Mutawa, i guess we were unlucky. Maybe they thought we were locals, but obviously not royalty as we had a Honda! :-)
Aug 30th 2007, 3:05 pm
#39
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 2,675
Re: Riyadh
What am I - a bleedin' job centre??? Seriously though - happy to do what I can.
Send CVs privately to me at [email protected] if you like. Bear in mind there is still (officially at least) a "Saudization" programme, where if there is a suitably-qualified Saudi, he should be employed before or instead of a non-Saudi. Which means........
....... A senior Pakistani settlements/payments clerk got laid off this week - after 27 years. He had trained a Saudi to do the job - so HE was no longer needed.... Harsh but we all expect it, sooner or later.
And I'm moving into Kingdom Compound tomorrow, for those who know it.
Maranelloman - WHEN were you in Saudi??? Whenever I have been there, a muttawa wouldn't have DARED to exert his 'authority' over the occupants of a car.
Send CVs privately to me at [email protected] if you like. Bear in mind there is still (officially at least) a "Saudization" programme, where if there is a suitably-qualified Saudi, he should be employed before or instead of a non-Saudi. Which means........
....... A senior Pakistani settlements/payments clerk got laid off this week - after 27 years. He had trained a Saudi to do the job - so HE was no longer needed.... Harsh but we all expect it, sooner or later.
And I'm moving into Kingdom Compound tomorrow, for those who know it.
Maranelloman - WHEN were you in Saudi??? Whenever I have been there, a muttawa wouldn't have DARED to exert his 'authority' over the occupants of a car.
Kingdom, of course I know it, lived there for almost 4 years!
Only place to be in Riyadh!
Say "Hi" to Ed from me!
Aug 30th 2007, 8:10 pm
#40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: Riyadh
Thanks to all of you for the CVs - to answer your questions: Skype is banned this week, but may be OK next week (it's in and out like that all the time). I understood UAE banned it as it reduces Etisalat income.
Also - as someone who has interviewed a million people over the years - and seen a ZILLION CVs - you should all make more of your language skills if you have them. One of you (you know who you are) described being fluent in Arabic as an "interest" - no, that's an achievement, a skill, etc so make more of it.
And thanks for the sensible advice about my e-mail address - you also know who you are.
Aug 30th 2007, 9:19 pm
#41
patience...is a virtue!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Location: Lincolnshire...England
Posts: 210
Re: Riyadh
Ed? Is he the manager? Or the Ed that works as something important for one of the banks (can't remember which)?
Thanks to all of you for the CVs - to answer your questions: Skype is banned this week, but may be OK next week (it's in and out like that all the time). I understood UAE banned it as it reduces Etisalat income.
Also - as someone who has interviewed a million people over the years - and seen a ZILLION CVs - you should all make more of your language skills if you have them. One of you (you know who you are) described being fluent in Arabic as an "interest" - no, that's an achievement, a skill, etc so make more of it.
And thanks for the sensible advice about my e-mail address - you also know who you are.
Thanks to all of you for the CVs - to answer your questions: Skype is banned this week, but may be OK next week (it's in and out like that all the time). I understood UAE banned it as it reduces Etisalat income.
Also - as someone who has interviewed a million people over the years - and seen a ZILLION CVs - you should all make more of your language skills if you have them. One of you (you know who you are) described being fluent in Arabic as an "interest" - no, that's an achievement, a skill, etc so make more of it.
And thanks for the sensible advice about my e-mail address - you also know who you are.
Do they usually put a stop to Skype, or is it a common thing and always gets put back on?
Thanks.
Aug 31st 2007, 9:05 am
#42
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 2,675
Re: Riyadh
You are welcome, and yes, it is "ED" the manager. Even though, at the moment I hear Mike has the pull over there, lol.
Sep 9th 2007, 7:06 am
#43
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: The Island of love
Posts: 882
Re: Riyadh
Hi, have to agree with The Dean re covering up - been here 4 months and not once have I had to cover my head. Many women work but the jobs are like hens teeth . . . . and it tends to be who you know . . . .
Saudi is an interesting place to be, but not as friendly as everyone tells you it is, Dubai is much friendlier. Many people on the compounds don't talk to you at all or respond if you say hi to them when walking the dogs - no manners at all. Many of the long timers keep themselves to themselves and I have been told to my face by a woman who has been here 20 years that if she saw me walking my dog and I say hello she would ignore me - mmmmm, nice.
Other things to take into account are the ages of your children - there is little for youngsters to do here - and if your kids are teens or approaching teens who are used to cinemas, theatres etc. it is a huge change for them. It's fine for younger children, altho I wouldn't personally want to be here with toddlers as they would get a very warped view of the world. Also, if they are very sporty and good at sport there is very limited competitive sports here.
Schooling is OK, but the choice is severely limited. Shopping is fine - most of the shops you would want are here - except H&M . . . . .
Compound life is not for everyone - they remind me of 3* holiday camps - but that's just me!! However, they are safe for the children to ride around on and go to their friend's houses without me being a taxi driver all the time.
As for your wife, I think it will depend on how much she values her independance - Saudi suits some people just fine and they love it - I've met people who've been here 20 years, 30 years, 15 years and wouldn't leave - altho to be honest not sure they could leave and live in the real world again!! LOL. For others it doesn't suit - same as anywhere really.
The hardest part is not being able to drive - just being able to pop out and grab a book, or a birthday card etc. is a HUGE pain for me and altho there are shopping buses it really isn't the same, plus you are bound by their schedules. The solution to that is to get a driver who is on call all the time. Friends of ours have a driver who also cleans and does the garden - so he's a useful chap.
It's a really tough choice to make. Would I come back here again ? No, but I'm happy to have the experience. Not sure I will last more than 1 year - possibly two at the most - but that's the people I have met here so far - not the country itself. Saudi has some incredibly interesting places to visit - more so than other ME countries - and definitely more than Dubai. If you are into dune bashing and wadi driving this is a great country - there are great places to go and sights (and sites) to see.
Just thought I'd add my two penny worth - whatever you choose I hope it works well for you and your family.
Nicola
Saudi is an interesting place to be, but not as friendly as everyone tells you it is, Dubai is much friendlier. Many people on the compounds don't talk to you at all or respond if you say hi to them when walking the dogs - no manners at all. Many of the long timers keep themselves to themselves and I have been told to my face by a woman who has been here 20 years that if she saw me walking my dog and I say hello she would ignore me - mmmmm, nice.
Other things to take into account are the ages of your children - there is little for youngsters to do here - and if your kids are teens or approaching teens who are used to cinemas, theatres etc. it is a huge change for them. It's fine for younger children, altho I wouldn't personally want to be here with toddlers as they would get a very warped view of the world. Also, if they are very sporty and good at sport there is very limited competitive sports here.
Schooling is OK, but the choice is severely limited. Shopping is fine - most of the shops you would want are here - except H&M . . . . .
Compound life is not for everyone - they remind me of 3* holiday camps - but that's just me!! However, they are safe for the children to ride around on and go to their friend's houses without me being a taxi driver all the time.
As for your wife, I think it will depend on how much she values her independance - Saudi suits some people just fine and they love it - I've met people who've been here 20 years, 30 years, 15 years and wouldn't leave - altho to be honest not sure they could leave and live in the real world again!! LOL. For others it doesn't suit - same as anywhere really.
The hardest part is not being able to drive - just being able to pop out and grab a book, or a birthday card etc. is a HUGE pain for me and altho there are shopping buses it really isn't the same, plus you are bound by their schedules. The solution to that is to get a driver who is on call all the time. Friends of ours have a driver who also cleans and does the garden - so he's a useful chap.
It's a really tough choice to make. Would I come back here again ? No, but I'm happy to have the experience. Not sure I will last more than 1 year - possibly two at the most - but that's the people I have met here so far - not the country itself. Saudi has some incredibly interesting places to visit - more so than other ME countries - and definitely more than Dubai. If you are into dune bashing and wadi driving this is a great country - there are great places to go and sights (and sites) to see.
Just thought I'd add my two penny worth - whatever you choose I hope it works well for you and your family.
Nicola
Sep 9th 2007, 7:14 am
#44
patience...is a virtue!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Location: Lincolnshire...England
Posts: 210
Re: Riyadh
Hi, have to agree with The Dean re covering up - been here 4 months and not once have I had to cover my head. Many women work but the jobs are like hens teeth . . . . and it tends to be who you know . . . .
Saudi is an interesting place to be, but not as friendly as everyone tells you it is, Dubai is much friendlier. Many people on the compounds don't talk to you at all or respond if you say hi to them when walking the dogs - no manners at all. Many of the long timers keep themselves to themselves and I have been told to my face by a woman who has been here 20 years that if she saw me walking my dog and I say hello she would ignore me - mmmmm, nice.
Other things to take into account are the ages of your children - there is little for youngsters to do here - and if your kids are teens or approaching teens who are used to cinemas, theatres etc. it is a huge change for them. It's fine for younger children, altho I wouldn't personally want to be here with toddlers as they would get a very warped view of the world. Also, if they are very sporty and good at sport there is very limited competitive sports here.
Schooling is OK, but the choice is severely limited. Shopping is fine - most of the shops you would want are here - except H&M . . . . .
Compound life is not for everyone - they remind me of 3* holiday camps - but that's just me!! However, they are safe for the children to ride around on and go to their friend's houses without me being a taxi driver all the time.
As for your wife, I think it will depend on how much she values her independance - Saudi suits some people just fine and they love it - I've met people who've been here 20 years, 30 years, 15 years and wouldn't leave - altho to be honest not sure they could leave and live in the real world again!! LOL. For others it doesn't suit - same as anywhere really.
The hardest part is not being able to drive - just being able to pop out and grab a book, or a birthday card etc. is a HUGE pain for me and altho there are shopping buses it really isn't the same, plus you are bound by their schedules. The solution to that is to get a driver who is on call all the time. Friends of ours have a driver who also cleans and does the garden - so he's a useful chap.
It's a really tough choice to make. Would I come back here again ? No, but I'm happy to have the experience. Not sure I will last more than 1 year - possibly two at the most - but that's the people I have met here so far - not the country itself. Saudi has some incredibly interesting places to visit - more so than other ME countries - and definitely more than Dubai. If you are into dune bashing and wadi driving this is a great country - there are great places to go and sights (and sites) to see.
Just thought I'd add my two penny worth - whatever you choose I hope it works well for you and your family.
Nicola
Saudi is an interesting place to be, but not as friendly as everyone tells you it is, Dubai is much friendlier. Many people on the compounds don't talk to you at all or respond if you say hi to them when walking the dogs - no manners at all. Many of the long timers keep themselves to themselves and I have been told to my face by a woman who has been here 20 years that if she saw me walking my dog and I say hello she would ignore me - mmmmm, nice.
Other things to take into account are the ages of your children - there is little for youngsters to do here - and if your kids are teens or approaching teens who are used to cinemas, theatres etc. it is a huge change for them. It's fine for younger children, altho I wouldn't personally want to be here with toddlers as they would get a very warped view of the world. Also, if they are very sporty and good at sport there is very limited competitive sports here.
Schooling is OK, but the choice is severely limited. Shopping is fine - most of the shops you would want are here - except H&M . . . . .
Compound life is not for everyone - they remind me of 3* holiday camps - but that's just me!! However, they are safe for the children to ride around on and go to their friend's houses without me being a taxi driver all the time.
As for your wife, I think it will depend on how much she values her independance - Saudi suits some people just fine and they love it - I've met people who've been here 20 years, 30 years, 15 years and wouldn't leave - altho to be honest not sure they could leave and live in the real world again!! LOL. For others it doesn't suit - same as anywhere really.
The hardest part is not being able to drive - just being able to pop out and grab a book, or a birthday card etc. is a HUGE pain for me and altho there are shopping buses it really isn't the same, plus you are bound by their schedules. The solution to that is to get a driver who is on call all the time. Friends of ours have a driver who also cleans and does the garden - so he's a useful chap.
It's a really tough choice to make. Would I come back here again ? No, but I'm happy to have the experience. Not sure I will last more than 1 year - possibly two at the most - but that's the people I have met here so far - not the country itself. Saudi has some incredibly interesting places to visit - more so than other ME countries - and definitely more than Dubai. If you are into dune bashing and wadi driving this is a great country - there are great places to go and sights (and sites) to see.
Just thought I'd add my two penny worth - whatever you choose I hope it works well for you and your family.
Nicola
Sep 9th 2007, 7:20 am
#45
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: The Island of love
Posts: 882
Re: Riyadh
We are on Kingdom Compound which everyone says is one of the best . . . . Arizona is nice as it has a golf course, but was unsuitable for us as we brought our dogs and cats with us and they would eat the goats, deer etc. that are onthe course, plus they don't have enclosed gardens - essential with 5 dogs! I also like Al Hamra - some of the houses have basements - great for games room for the kids.
One up point about being here is that we are saving money - it is way, way cheaper than Dubai in general and with little to do our outgoigs are much lower than they were. Of course, that is then off set by R&R jaunts to Dubai and Bahrain . . . . . .
Cheers
Nicola
One up point about being here is that we are saving money - it is way, way cheaper than Dubai in general and with little to do our outgoigs are much lower than they were. Of course, that is then off set by R&R jaunts to Dubai and Bahrain . . . . . .
Cheers
Nicola