Eva

betcha you watch Oprah.

alfrombarking

Ohh Eva

seriously though. I think secularism has failed in India. Hindu's vs Muslims, Muslims vs Hindus, Hindus vs Sikhs, Hindus vs Christians and so on. And in the midst of all this it's the innocent that have always paid the price.

On the PI thingy..the mission was successfully accomplished without any casualties

Eva

You work for the Brownies then?
Every other organization has shot a Brazilian or two..........allegedly

I hate Pink
MM ...can you sort my PR?

pharmacyprofessor

The question is "how do you define secularism"?
India is still a very good example of a developing country where people from different religions, sects and groups living together and openly practice their religious belief.

I absolutely admire and respect indian mozaic and cultural diversity.

alfrombarking,
At the same time, i'm not undermining your observation about different religions pitted against each other. If you thoroughly investigate the issue you will find that these fights are over nothing except for a couple of cases, however, the hatred and intolerance are outcome of various political parties trying to vow the different communities for their political gains in the election to come to the power.
Conclusion:
Political will to resolve the issue is misisng.

alfrombarking

Couple of issues:

On this context i believe that secularism that is applied in the west is not same as the one applied in India

I think after the partition, maintaining state secularism and religious neutrality proved difficult, and the Indian constitution did not establish a uniform civil code.

And having a powerful political party like the BJP didn't help much esp through its RSS whose beliefs include the idea that all Indians are ancestral Hindus and that those who are Christians or Muslims have converted to foreign religions and must accept the primacy of their ancient Hindu heritage.


And the Kashmir thing hasn't helped anything.


ohhh I don't work for the Brownies..so what's wrong with your PR?

Eva

ha I'm sure you don't nor the KKK

My PR think pink...Inclusive but not the best with my Slavic skin tones

Alf, ..............where is Barking?

IndieG

They've captured some of the terrorists alive. So they have some strong evidence. Even the PM said it. So am not just pulling nationalties out of my hat.....they arrived in 4 hijacked boats from Porbunder port to the gateway of India with a lot of arms and ammunition.

We need to get rid of the Congress and the parties in Bihar and UP. They have been very soft on terrorists just to get the minority vote. National security is secondary. Hopefully the opposition will use this opportunity and bring back the anti terrorism laws and take some strong action.
I have cousins who are in the army and in fact one currently stationed in Kashmir....my BIL is in the armed forces (Naval intelligence - edit: now that is an oxymoron, considering the terrorists came by boat!). So will find out what is actually happening soon.

alfrombarking

I guess its the post Nehru politicians to blame for all this. I think he (Nehru) was greatly committed, more than anyone else in post-independence India, to the concept of secularism. He never compromised on this question. He was well aware of the fact that secularism is a great cementing force for the diverse people of India. He, as an idealist, thought that with spread of modern scientific and technological education secularism would spread and find greater and greater acceptability. However, not only it that did not happen that way but communalism and obscurantism spread with more intensity than secularism.
And out of that diversity came hatred that has been used by the likes of The Bhartiya Janta Party (BJP), which came to power using its Hindutva card, (and) it's not likely to give it up in the near future. With every election it intensifies its Hindutva agenda. The other members of the Sangh Parivar, specially the Vishva Hindu Parishaad (not sure about the spelling), tend to be more irresponsible as they do not have to govern.

alfrom which in this case has always been the main agenda of the Hindu nationalist discourse, as reflected in their Shiv Sena rhetoric, which often uses four dominant themes to describe the Muslim minority in India: "good" Muslims are loyal to India, while "bad Muslims are not; "bad" Muslims are treacherous, seditious, cowardly and stubborn; "bad" Muslims are religious fundamentalists who commit monstrous acts against Hindus; and Muslims receive special treatment. When combined, these themes define the Muslim minority as both evil and the cause of all problems afflicting the Hindu majority.

And of recently they started killing Christians..makes you wonder how far they will go in this day and age.

I agree with you on this and in this case BJP has been very effective


Doubt i. Politicians both from Congress and BJP have failed, especially with the latter. Hatred is the cornerstone of its politics. It has brought back the hatred associated with the 1947 partition, not the understanding that created India as a nation. To believe that 110 million or so Muslims in India can be beaten into submission is to believe a lie, a most dangerous lie.

But then again I am not Indian so maybe Indian posters here might give us more insight

alfrombarking

Barking is in East London. Used to be a predominantly white working class (whatever that means nowadays) area.But not anymore, I'm told the Islington media types bought up cheap there so i guess Working Class thing is gone and now they have the Middle Classes

by the way who is that in your avatar? I know its not Audrey or Stanwyck

I wonder how i might help you with your PR

IndieG

Source: TOI

Police sources said an injured terrorist captured during the fighting at the Taj Mahal hotel was tentatively identified as Ajmal Amir Kamal, a resident of Faridkot, near Multan, in Pakistan’s Punjab province. Highly-placed police sources said two other Pakistani nationals had also be held in the course of intense fighting on Thursday.

All three, the sources said, identified themselves as members of a Lashkar fidayeen squad.

Based on the interrogation of the suspects, investigators believe that one or more groups of Lashkar operatives left Karachi in a merchant ship early on Wednesday. Late that night, an estimated 12 fidayeen left the ship in a small boat and rowed some ten nautical miles to Mumbai’s Gateway of India area.

Investigators say the fidayeen unit of which Mr. Kamal was a part then split up into at least six groups, each focussing on a separate target: Mumbai’s Nariman House, which is home to a large number of Israeli families and a Jewish prayer house; the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus rail station; the Cama hospital; the Girgaum seafront; and the Taj and Trident Oberoi hotels.

Bambi in Abu Dhabi

Hijacked boats? I heard that they arrived in the harbour in inflatable dhingies.

Pakistani nationals? So, did anybody actually ask to see their passports?

Sorry, but although I share everyone's sense of outrage, this kind of speculation is not at all helpful.

IndieG

Errrrr - my BIL is just BS'ing....and I am just speculating. The Prime Minister and the home minister are speculating too.

Let me find out whether they asked for passports.... These terrorists probably have half a dozen passports of different countries............. Ever heard of army/police/naval intelligence? Some of these guys are already on their databases.



Mumbai terror attack: Live timeline
Terrorists launched a massive attack on India's financial capital on Wednesday, and put major hotels under seige. A chronology of events since then:

2.25 am: Fresh firing begins between NSG and the holed up terrorists. Reports of an Israeli team being flown in to assist in operations.
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8.00 pm: 4 more terrorists killed at the Taj. Another mammoth explosion in the Oberoi, starts huge fire.
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5.40: pm: A special NSG team specialised in managing hostage crisis, moves to Nariman house armed with rocket launchers and bazookas. Their aim is to flush out terrorists still holed inside and to free trapped Israeli hostages.

5.20 pm: The NSG arrests one militant at the Trident. The arrested terrorist has been identified as Abu Ismail from Faridkot in Pakistan.

4.56 pm: According to recent reports, five persons are being held as hostages at Nariman House.

4.55 pm: The Indian Navy spokesman Capt Manohar Nambiar says the Navy has "located the ship (MV Alpha) and now we are in the process of boarding it and searching it."

4.55 pm: Firing intensifies at Taj hotel and Trident hotel.

4.40 pm: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh confirms that the attacks are being carried out by a group based out of the country. He further promises to set up a Federal Investigation Authority to fight terror in a co-ordinated manner.

4.40 pm: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh condoles the deaths, describes the attacks as pre-planned. He further vows to take the strongest possible action in an address to the nation.
3.48 pm : Trawler or merchant vessel may have dropped speed boats allegedly used by terrorists, say Navy sources.

3.41 pm : Navy's INS Kunjali and Vindhyagiri are chasing the suspected terrorist vessel off Mumbai.

3.40 pm : Navy and Coast Guard on hot pursuit of a merchant vessel suspected to have dropped the terrorists off the Mumbai coast.3.35 pm : President Pratibha Patil phones the PM.
3.10 pm : The Coast Guard launched a major search for a ship 'M V Alpha' by which the terrorists involved in the Mumbai attacks are suspected to have reached the shores of the metropolis.

Eva

Oh you are harping back to Eddie Shah
Sorry that was Wapping woz it not?

No not Aud-she was auburn-and she is my muse.
Stanwyck????- haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa you must be at least 60.
My avi is from HP....not the beans...

IndieG

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,458270,00.html

pharmacyprofessor

IndieG,
I've family members, relatives both close and distant in top administration/government positions as well.

I'm also aware of indian intelligence database and as of today we see a complete failure of several thousands who work to collect and analyze the intelligence to built the database when the terror struck at least 50 places in last 2-3 years. there is no end to it though the India's inept and corrupt security forces claimed to have either eliminated or arrested so-called "Terror Masterminds'?

Here are several news items from various indian sources which helped me and ofcourse you as I see your post above to built our news database, this may help you as well.

Here are the different versions on terror attack.

Mumbai Police Commissioner Gafoor said least 12 terrorists had come to Mumbai from Gujarat.

Intelligence reports had warned that there could be a possible entry of terrorists into Mumbai through the sea route, a top police offical claimed.

The terrorists, who created havoc in Mumbai overnight, came by boats, chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh has said.

M V Alpha, a ship which is suspected to have carried the perpetrators of the Mumbai terror attacks, was today found 112 km from here by the Coast Guard, officials said.

A fishing trawler that went missing on November 14 may have carried the terrorists to Colaba coast to hold Mumbai hostage on Wednesday, Terrorists who struck Mumbai had set up advance "Control Rooms" in the luxury Taj and Trident Oberoi hotels which was also targeted and did prior reconnaisance executing plans worked "over months", Union Cabinet minister Kapil Sibal said on Thursday night.

Last but not least, to add fuel to fire: There are indications that the perpetrators of the crime, who arrived in Mumbai by boats, are Pakistani nationals," authoritative sources said. police sources told TOI.

Conclusion:

Within 24 hours of the first attack, suddenly so-efficient Mumbai police and the country's intelligence agencies have claimed to crack the case (according to Indian news agencies). The agency's sources are saying that the attack was planned in Pakistan and a trawler is used to transport the people involved in the terror attack. The same agencies are now saying that a stolen fishboat is also used to transport them to Mumbai seashores and went further claiming in a special boat. The sources are not done here, added further that these people came to Mumbai on Nov 18. It seems to me that they were very familiar with the city geographical locations and drove around shooting people (perhaps with the help of a GPS). How ridiculous?