I can't believe I'm doing this - responding to a post about religion posted by Norm...

Anyway, ahem, clears throat.

Christianity has been established in the West for 2,000 years. Islam in most of the Middle East for 1400 years. These two religions are so ingrained into the everyday culture of their respective regions, yes, even in "post-christian" west. I think it's safe to say that they aren't invader religions.

Christianity is around 1800 years old in some parts of the West but in others it is less than 1000 years old. Parts of Scandinavia and North Eastern Europe were still closely following native beliefs until recent times.

Given we still have absolutely loads of our original pagan/heathen customs (Christmas, Easter, name of days of the week etc) plus groups all over Europe reconstructing the old ways from the 12 Olympians in Greece to the Asatru revival in Scandinavia I'd say respectfully that Christianity most certainly is not a native belief system and was spread, particularly in Northern Europe by trickery, bribery, political pressure and outright murder. It has little to do with European spirituality and had to be adapted and bent to even be palatable to our ancestors (as it has almost everywhere).

As for Islam...most certainly an invader religion. It means submission and was founded by a polygamous warlord who killed those who spoke against him and beheaded captives of war. Ask Charles Martel, or the Spanish who had to reconquer their own country over centuries or go forward to more recent centuries and look at the Battle of Vienna or the 1.2 million European slaves of the Barbary Pirates, or the citizens of Constantinople, or the Serbs in Kosovo (well not anymore!) if Islam isn't an invader religion.

I suppose a lot depends on how broad you view of history is. I don't see 1000 years a very long time historically. I also see Christianity and Islam as morally bankrupt hijackings of Judaism (essential a tribal belief with no mandate to go all over the world converting everyone and killing those who protest.

I'll take Thor over Jesus any day of the week (especially Thursday which is "Thor's Day"!)

N.

Oh, come off it Norm.

You're drivelling here in a twisted attempt to justify some weird belief of yours. Christianity is the default religon of the West regardless of whether you like it or not. It's no more an invader religion than the previous Celtic gods. We are, or rather all of us except you, are culturally Christian because the theology and philosophy is so ingrained into our political, social and legal systems, not to mention our liturature, art and architecture. Both the West and Christianity have grown and evolved along with one another that. I'm hardly religious but I know why there's a blasted cathedral in every town and city and not a shrine to Thor.

Ditto with the Middle East. Most of the modern Middle East is indistinguishable from Islam because it is Islamic culture that defines the soul of the Middle East. But that's all I have to say on the matter. It's pretty well established on here that having a reasonable discuorse on anything even remotely associated with religion with you is like trying to persuade the Iranian mullahs that the holocaust did actually happen.

What we call 'Christianity' isn't much like the original version. As Norm (admittedly somewhat exaggeratedly) says, it is a fusion of previous religious beliefs with the Christian message, which itself is essentially a way of updating Judaism and making it export-able from the tribal base.

Religions, a form of government, have always done this and Islam is no different in this respect; it absorbed and updated the existing religions to suit the needs of the time eg. the ka'aba, the black cube in the holy mosque in Mecca, is built around a pagan temple containing a stone from the gods - every muslim is essentially praying towards a heathen rock.

As Norm said, Christianity blatantly absorbed the pagan winter solstice (Christmas) and fertility festivals (Easter - the English name is from Oestre the Teutonic fertility goddess, and why do you think we have eggs and rabbits?)

Buddhism is intellectually much purer but most people find that a little hard so worshiping tubby idols became common and lots of Hindu mythology found it's way in so they now have lots of mixed up legends and stories also.

Islam is different to the others though since there is a definitive version of the holy scriptures, which is why it lends itself more to fundamentalists who take the script completely literally and ignore the other teachings of Islam which suggest that times change and therefore so should the interpretation.

If individuals choose to believe in any of these religions that is their right. I personally think it's all baloney.

I'm an Atheist so what belief exactly would I be justifying? Pointing out the massive contribution of indiginous European beliefs to our culture is hardly a weird belief.

Millions of freethinkers, non-believers, not interested and pagan types might have something to say at that claim. I thought the West was mostly secular these days or did the Enlightenment not happen?

I don't recall hearing about the Celts butchering their own people for not following their brand of Celtic paganism...

Except me?? So pointing out that a rich pagan heritage exists even now, if wrapped in Christian dressing somehow excludes me from being culturally British anymore. Wow...

Did you know the Germanic peoples had trials by a jury of their peers in their legal system centuries before they heard of Jesus? Half the common law has it's roots there not in the Ten Commandments. Rome was at it's peak in size and technology before Christianity arrived (which it is argued helped it's decline as much as the barbarian invasions) and no one in Europe was as advanced as Rome until a thousand years after Rome fell (which coincided with a gradual separation of Church and State.) Europe became the most advanced group of nations in the world in the late 1700s - which again coincided with further separating of religion from state...

I don't deny Christianity is seeped in our history but we have far deeper roots than 1400 years of people like Charlamagne beheading thousands of Saxon nobles who simply refused to give up their ancestral beliefs and publically celibate men codifiying hatred of women.

Because the Christians destroyed most of them. Funny how we have so many stone circles, barrows and other odd things lying about that are far older - they must have missed those...

Millions of Arab Christians in the Middle East would not be happy reading what you just posted. Millions of Jews and the non-Muslim Kurds might have a few words with you about that too.

The early Muslims, like the early Christians tried to demonise what went before them. In the case of the Arabs the destruction of prior religion and social life has been massive. Most Muslim Arabs will not even be able to tell you about the middle east before Islam. I find that tragic.

Say you piece then close the door to responses...after dropping in a slight ad hominem at the end too. Classy and very "reasonable" to boot!

N.