Re: The Kingdom
 

Indeed! That was me having my rant at the world going ons and you got caught in the crossfire. Didnt intend for any collateral damage!

Re: The Kingdom
 

securing oil was just as important to those countries who opposed the invasion i.e. France and Russia. Now the Chinese are just as bad financing the Sudanese government massacres in Darfur.

Problem is that the bashing of these countries isnt so high up on the PC brigades agenda! Its more fun for them to target the Yanks.

The big mistake was the failure to remove Sadam at the end of the first Gulf War.

Re: The Kingdom
 

and replace him with a different puppet ruler of the US's choosing? and when would you have us replace him ?

A far bigger mistake was not realising that it is unsustainable to treat the whole world as corporate America's personal fiefdom and that installing and removing rulers at will, doesn't always wash with the poor saps who become (or in the case of the current Iraq occupation, don't become as no-one counts) faceless statistics of collateral damage.

Re: The Kingdom
 

I agree with all you said except the last bit. The world is not like it used to be, in that you cannot just march into a country and take over as the destabilisation causes chaos. Lawlessness takes over and you install a government who cannot control the situation.

The problem is that now if the US pull out it will probably push Iraq into Civil War, and if they stay in the situation will not improve. The bottom line is though that the current Iraq situation has to the US to blame. I hope they learn the lesson not to get involved.

Re: The Kingdom
 

you are forgetting that the first Gulf War was started as a result of an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. and what about the poor hundreds of thousands of poor saps who had been massacred by Sadam's regime?

The collateral damage has less to do with the American / British "occupation" and more to do with religious nutters who are quite happy to slaughter their own countrymen, even during the holy month, in the name of their religion.

The PC brigade who are so happy to blame America for everything that is wrong in the world are clearly the direct decendants of the Appeasement brigade who said that it was wrong to interfere in Germany's invasion of the Suddetenland.

Re: The Kingdom
 

but at the time of the 1st Gulf War the internal opposition to Sadam was more unified and extremists were far less organised. The greater involvement of Arab nations in that offensive and a subsequent temporary occupation would have led to a far more stable situation than exists now.

The lack of legitimacy and arab involvement in the second gulf war has combined with the rise in Islamic extremism (against the west and against other branches of Islam) to make the situation untenable.

but the fact remains that the vast majority of casualties in Iraq are Iraqi citizens deliberately slaughtered by other Iraqi's and Islamic extremists from other countries.

Re: The Kingdom
 

How silly of us not to realise that the US invasion of Iraq was done for unselfish, humanitarian reasons - and to spread freedom and democracy throughout the world.

God Bless America.

Re: The Kingdom
 

thought I would win you around eventually Shakh ;)

now Im no Yankie supporter but the French, Chinese, Russians and Brits are just as guilty as using their econmic, political and military might to influence governments around the world.

Re: The Kingdom
 

No I remember that - it was my first TV war, one that I watched live and didn't read about in the history books.

And I still don't understand why the Land of the Free didn't treat the Kuwaitis as kindly as they have treated the Iraqis. Iraq is now a free democracy, no? and yet Bush Sr reappoints a dictator to the throne of Kuwait rather than insisting on universal suffrage. Strange...


Well, what about them? It was the lefties who were protesting it at the time - likes of Tommy Sheridan et al (is he part of this amorphous 'PC Brigade'?) while the hawks sold him the weapons (yes yes i've heard the usual rightie response to this: if we didn't then the French/Russians/Chinese would have sold them)

The PC Brigade has no brief that I am aware of for these nutters - but I think it is difficult to absolve ourselves of all blame for Kerbala siege, or random shootings of wedding parties etc.

Insy, I'm at a loss to know who this brigade is... it's easy to condemn 'them' when you make a straw man argument for 'their' opinion and then burn it down...

Re: The Kingdom
 

yes but the Americans are the only ones to get full marks for penache ;)

Re: The Kingdom
 

well I've got to admit they are certainly the most accomplished when it comes to "friendly fire" ;)

Re: The Kingdom
 

[QUOTE=Inselaffen;5328638]but at the time of the 1st Gulf War the internal opposition to Sadam was more unified and extremists were far less organised. QUOTE]

The difference is that GW1 was sanctioned via a UN Resolution.

What the USA (and our very own cuddly poodle led government) demonstrated to the world in GF2 was that Woodrow Wilson's vision for a "League of Nations", and some form of "global consensus" amongst the governments of the world, is nothing more than lip service.

Re: The Kingdom
 

I had a huge reply written out on this... but then I doubt i'd ever be let into dubai if i posted it...

all i'll say is read "confessions of an economic hitman" - by john perkins

Re: The Kingdom
 

[QUOTE=shakh your bootie;5328900]it is that very League of Nations that is the root of many of the problems in Iraq today. The creation of the British Mandate of Mesopotamia created a false country which later became Iraq. Unifying people under a single flag doesn't create a nation.

Re: The Kingdom
 

[QUOTE=Inselaffen;5328940]Ah, the manoueverings of the Empire's King-makers was something to behold, indeed. Tariq Ali's "Bush in Babylon" gives a great account of the cynical "empire management" decisions that led to the creation of the fledgeling Iraq. We can also thank the Brit's for the Ibn Saud regime, too.

But, to be fair to Mr Wilson, the League of Nations was founded on a sound vision, and the concept of the United Nations is, I think, a sound one. If we are to be a "globalised" society, we need to evolve beyond the petty definitions of national identity.

{Shakhs leaps up from his desk and starts singing the "Internationale". His colleagues look mildly perturbed, but by now are used to such displays of eccentricity}