I don't think this corelation holds. I think there are less drunken youths on Canadian streets then British ones because the social model in Canada is built around drugs rather than alcohol. This results in tidier streets and happier policemen, notably Julian Fantino, and it may be a good thing, but I don't think it would change if Loblaws offered discount booze.

Extreme weather probably has something to do with it too - would you really want to be hanging around drinking a cheap ass bottle of 8% cider in the depths of winter getting frostbite or the height of summer getting bitten to death?

Though they don't seem to have 8% 2 litre bottles of cider for £2 here - so that's probably a factor too....

I think very cheap booze/drugs is only part of the issue. The other part is that we are in to third and fourth generation "oinks" - those that have never worked, that think that see "gangs" as "family" where you have half a dozen kids with half a dozen different dads none of whom have any involvement in the children's upbringing, it is a complete and utter breakdown of society and family.

We were talking to our local community police about this and if they pick these kids up off the streets, some of whom are as young as 8 or 10 and take them home of an evening, the parents/mother is rarely there which means that the police effectively end up "babysitting", something they just don't have the resources to do so they don't pick them up or send them home anymore because there is no "home" to go to.

In typical "tinytears" style, I have just been crying whilst reading an interview with Rhys Jones's mum in the news of the world, for those that don't know Rhys was shot whilst walking home from his football training by a gang member who was targetting another gang member. One of the things that resonated so hard with me is this:

That is exactly how our estate is. And that is why I fear so much for my kids, we are literally trapped between two warring gangs, one from the estate behind and one front the estate in front and yet our estate is lovely, new, clean, full of hard working families.

On another note Karen Matthews who was just put away for kidnapping her own daughter once called Shannon a twin and yet I was completely baffled because none of her siblings were being listed as the same age. Turns out she thought that because Shannon and her brother had the same FATHER it made them twins.

Sadly this is the problem with the UK, in many places (NOT EVERYWHERE) there has been such a massive break down in society, in family and in values that I can't see how it can ever be fixed. This is third and fourth generation now and it is completely engrained into them now. I went to school with a girl who at 13 got pregnant, her daugher went on to get pregnant at 13, making my friend a grandma by the age of 27. Her granddaughter aslo got pregnant at 13 meaning at the grand old age of 40 my friend is a great grandma. Of course all these girls had more than one child, this is just the eldest of each. There isn't a father around for any of them, no permenent men and I think that there are something like 6 or 8 kids at each generation. It absolutely shocks me to the core when I see this "girl" because our lives went down such different paths. Is it choice, is it circumstance, is it breeding? I don't know, I do know that when I have seen her in the past and we have chatted that she thought it was fabulous that she was "raking in so much money" by having all these kids - maybe that is to do with it, but really what chance do they all have and all her kids and her grandchildren and now great grandchildren?

You just have to watch Jeremy Kyle every day to see how far society has broken down.

Sorry this turned into such a long post but I do think it is more than just drugs or booze, though those are contributory factors that's for sure, but it is the breakdown of society and family. These kids are turning to the gangs for a sense of family and a sense of belonging. It makes me so sad and so angry in equal measures.

I'm in my early thirties and I agree entirely. Social breakdown is accelerating enormously. My grandparents’ generation have mostly died out now and I think as a society we no longer understand what real sacrifice is (world wars etc). The UK has always been a place where alcohol has played a major role: it used to keep the masses subdued as they toiled in the sweatshops and propped up the engine room of the Empire as we taught the so-called ‘savages’ in the Colonies how jolly lucky they were to be absorbed. Now it’s cheap cocaine and Playstations. Has the relative standard of living increased? I’m not so sure. Without even speaking about the demise of the manufacturing industry or the recent increase in the national debt, or the fact that most of the Stock Exchange is owned by non-UK assets, I think we can safely say that the UK is heading for a long and painful demise and I think we're only just really witnessing the very start of it. Factor in China/India and the emerging economies of the Far East and we are little more than a small island off the West coast of Europe in the throes of a huge identity crisis. Ask any young person “What does it mean to be British?” and you’ll get a blank look (if they’re not already stoned). That is a bad thing as it means there is no sense of aspiration. Drugs are cheap now and it’s big business, but an entirely natural result of the same society that believes it acceptable for a 6 year old to walk to school with the latest mobile phone.

In addition, the balance between what's right and wrong in society is now dictated by reality TV shows and 'celebrities', most of whom cannot string two sentences together. And like you say the parents are either non-existent or too busy at the supermarket stocking up on cigarettes or looking out for the Postman and the next arriving benefit cheque. That's why all sensible teachers/nurses/policemen and those persons that used to play a pivotal role in setting the moral standard (in addition to the parents), are all leaving for NZ/Australia/Canada and wherever else they can. Unfortunately political correctness now means that the teachers and Police cannot even enforce any sense of discipline. (I would bring back National Service immediately, I would bring back public flogging sessions on a Sunday afternoon in the town square and I would start holding parents accountable for their kids’ actions.)

I lived in Canada as a kid – at the same ages as yours are now - and it left a long lasting impression on me (as others have confirmed who have experienced same). I’ve specifically not had any kids or gotten married yet as I have no intentions of bringing them up in the UK. (Thank god I’m going back on the 8th January as my parents want grandchildren!). Canada is not perfect and has it’s own issues, but the overall culture and general social interaction is far more family orientated, less status driven and feels like a generally 'nicer' place to be. Even the drunks and hoodies i've bumped into in downtown GTA are generally polite. If you appreciate the things and people around you it causes you to make that investment yourself.

Your kids are going to be grateful to you for the rest of their lives and this move is going to benefit them enormously in ways you don’t even understand yourself yet. Keep that in mind as you look out the window at these idiots and pause for a moment - things could be different for them too, if they had only had parents and a society that was actually taking control.

Sorry for the long post (i’m not) – and good luck.

Not to mention bush parties.

Even so I think that Canadian kids are more polite and considerate than British ones. Canadians are taught to think of others. The kids I see at work are mostly great, well behaved, polite. I remember meeting some Britons and their kids and being appalled at what the kids were allowed to do, there was no consideration for others. So I suppose we can only blame ourselves for the society we live in, at least some of us were able to get away and adopt another way.

Stuabroad thank you for your post and affirming everything I feel!

Same here. Rented not bought though.

http://www.beststart.org/events/deta.../PC1_mckay.pdf

I'd stop watching Jeremy Kyle if I were you. Teen pregnancy rates are no different here.

Oh good grief. Maybe you live in a shitty part of the UK but, if you move to a shitty part of Canada it'll be just the same. What has made Canada a good destination for Brits over the past decade has been the price of property in the UK; sell your house there, move to a better neighbourhood here. If you're poor there and move to be poor here you'll still be surrounded by people who've been on welfare since Newfoundland joined Canada.

Dude, if you think "what does it mean to be Canadian?" gets you an answer this hour you've seriously lost track of time.

Mmmm. For the flogging, how would you dress the floggers and floggees?

"Not American" is a likely answer, however deluded that may be....

This is the whole thing, I don't live in a shitty party of the UK, I live in a nice area, or it was before all this gang stuff started. I have had a very sheltered upbringing by my own admission and what is worrying is that all this stuff that was always very inner city before is now "spreading".

Where we want to go in Canada is a very nice area, not dissimilar to where we live here - probably even a little too similar.

Selling a house is easier said than done - read back to my first post, it looks as if we will have to leave the house, there is no way we can sell it with gangs of hoodies hanging out outside - would you buy a house like that??? It is heartbreaking because this area was absolutely NOT like that when we bought the house five years ago, this has only happened in the past two to two and a half years.

I live in a "posher" part of my town. I was called out twice last night, in this area and in the early hours, as a few local youth used the power outage to get high, drunk, break into businesses and attack a couple of their own parents/rellies/stand -ins. Oddly enough they all wore hoodies. It was minus 18 though. This is normal weekend stuff. What you are describing is not everywhere in the UK just as what I am describing is not everywhere in Canada. There is, admittedly, more space to avoid it, outside urban centres, but then you face a whole other set of issues in small-town Canada. Village life, it is not, let me tell you. What you seek to escape is here in spades, just swap booze for drugs and you will see kids from families with the same inter-generational welfare dependence.

Tut you mean nowhere is "perfect", we aren't expecting it to be crime free, we aren't expecting it to be anywhere near perfect, what we are hoping for is that it isn't as widespread. If you have been in Canada for a long time, I think you would be shocked at how quickly things in many parts of the UK have deteriorated, obviously not everywhere, just like Canada.

My uncle who has been in Canada for some thirty odd years will agree that there has been a huge deterioration there too and that it certainly isn't the same as when he first emmigrated. Then nowhere in the world is the same as it was 30 years ago.

I'm hoping that the decline is slower than in the UK and not as severe.

I've returned to the UK regularly since being stuck over here, and am going back to the UK to live within a few weeks. Social degeneration in the UK is nowhere near as widespread as you describe. You can certainly isolate yourself over here and stick with like minded communities. I note you have not stated even roughly where you live - why is that? We each make our own choices, some informed by experience, others fuelled by a slow form of mass hysteria which seems to have taken over the UK press. At least property prices are now affordable in the UK for us mere mortals, so there is always an upside.