R I C H

Too late, I edited

I'll take a Bombay Sapphire if you're offering though.

Almost Canadian

I don't believe anyone is arguing with that. If one needs an ICBM, nothing else will do.


The question is: do the police need guns for regular patrolling?

In years gone by, I have shot a number of people, none of them were trying to steal a car or rob a shop though.

I am confident that, once on patrol with a weapon, few would want to give up the weapon. That doesn't mean to carry one is necessary or proportionate though. I would wager that there are lots that attend martial arts classes just in case the need to defend oneself arises. I would further wager that most of those will never, ever use their martial arts outside of the dojo.

Alan2005

You call BS on a lot of things. But this is how I see your position in this thread.

• You expect everyone else to provide evidence, but are not willing or cannot provide any of your own.
• You disregard statistics that say the police don't want to be armed.
• You interpret the answer to another question as them saying they actually do.
• You disregard statistics that indicate that it's more dangerous to be a copper in Canada.
• You talk about things like "how many lives could be saved", but are unable to quantify what that means.

Personally I prefer dixon of dock green, truncheons and whistles. They seem to work well enough in the UK.

Boy d

i wasnt gong to bother further:

As I said, you've never had the opportunity to try and see if conflict resolution by communication is more effective than carrying/relying on a weapon, have you? You can't make judgement on something on which you've no experience.

I read this as .....you are not a real copper as you relay on your gun to carry the day. you have no experience at addressing issues without using a gun, hence a typical gun tooting, mindless yob........

having a gun most of the time serves no function and its easy to forget it's there...it's not like i think, screw this trying to talk to this geezer...may as well just shoot him.....the public doesn't like it when we do that sort of thing. Rules around using lethal force are extremely strict, as they ought to be. So not sure where you are getting at that i don't have experience speaking with people without a gun....i could easily do many aspects without a gun....in fact i did as an intervention worker before i joined, but at times it comes in handy.

Former Lancastrian

But Ive never made those claims thats why I asked you to read the thread in full.
I have no idea if a UK copper is at more risk than a Canadian one others are making that argument not me.
I was a copper in the UK but not here. Policing in both countries has its risks. One country arms its officers the other doesnt.
If you actually read my posts Im not advocating they should be armed or not. Try reading from post#41 onwards I have made 3 replies and not in one of them do I make those claims.

Alan2005

Sources

Canadian Police Homicides

British Police Killed in the Line of Duty (I've ignored those not actually murdered)

angelic applicant

wow are you lot still going

nowt better then a good debate

with or withough firearms

R I C H

You're reading it completely wrong. Society here knows cops carry guns. It's engrained in their minds. It carries a degree of threat, respect, fear, deterrent, etc etc - whatever the individual's perception is. It also provides the cop with the same. You can't divorce yourself from it - everyone knows you have a gun, you know it's there, the suspect does.


For sure, it has no immediate physical function most of the time, but it's still there. It's still in your mind that you have it available and could use it if necessary. It's still in the suspect's mind that you might/could/will use it. Society's mindset here is that guns are part of fighting crime. Turn up to a have a word with a kid thieving bubble gum, you still have a gun in a holster. It's part of your uniform. What you've never experienced is life in uniform where you're not expected to have a firearm for 'normal' policing - I'm certain it creates a different psychology amongst the public and the officer.

Boy d

As i've said numerous times, one can't provide data on how police intervention has lead to less death as that's not possible is it? How do i go about posting that then?

I didn't disregard stats that said (in 2006) that coppers don't want to be armed. I said the study was limited in that it didn't address what it means to be armed...personal protection vs protection of the public. I have said i accept they dont want em....but neither do i really. But i certainly need them. Further, in the same survey you brought up, it was noted that they felt the armed response set up was not effective. Which i see as cleary showing that no guns, and no viable alternative is a problem a very serious one at that.

You suggested that being armed causes the job to be more dangerous...i saw no evidence of that. Where is it then? How do other armed forces stack up? Your data simply shows that more cops get killed here vs the UK which on its face would certainly suggest, at least statistically that it's more risky, but did the fact that they were armed lead to their deaths?

No i cant quantify that being armed may save lives....all i can say is:

1. man with gun...copper not armed...runs away...innocents die

2. man with gun...copper armed...shoots man with gun....no innocents die

and although not being armed will alway save coppers, i'm sure that there are many times when it as. The shooter in mayerthorpe was fatally shot by police (not ERT)....he decided to end his own life as he lay dying. Im sure the one copper crouched behind a car with a pea shooter while rosco has a fully automatic rifle was happy about that.

im sure if we slug away on google we can find many such examples....of course we can never know what the outcomes would have really been. But its not unreasonable to assume that effective and timely intervention saves lives....its why we must carry.

I wishe we lived in Dixon's world. And to be honest most daily police and offender contact is resolved with no force at all. I forget the stat but something like 98 percent of all contact is resolved by officer presence and verbal commands...but what of when things go wrong.

Boy d

Fair enough....but i can do the job without it in such situations, it's the other situations that concern me.

Boy d

supposed to be my day off.....gorden bennett!

caretaker

The authority, the police presence, is embodied in the badge not the gun. The mandate from society to enforce the law and protect the public goes with the badge. The gun is just a tool, to be used only when necessary and very carefully.

Boy d

not mentioned why though....most were shot so it's certainly down to firearms, but is that more to do with the culture and easy access to them vs the canadians being armed?

I'm surprised its robbery that's the leading cause (although the data goes back to the 60's so i suspect that has changed) i was always under the impression it was domestic crimes. Most were junior in service too, although most front line coppers are.....

Boy d

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bieber

here's another case of how things would have gone differently here (although no one can know what the end game would have been)


Here a stolen vehicle is considered high risk and a tactical armed response would have been undertaken. Which would have amounted to being ordered from the vehicle at distance via pa at gun point.

I was pulled over with my brother and cousin in derbyshire a few years ago. Some of the worst officer safety i have ever seen. One fella crawled under the front of the car checking something....no one was watching us...and my brother was put unsearched in the back of the patrol car (he had not mot it turned out)..my cousin got out to see what was going on and sat on a wall and sparked up and was not challenged....i felt like a moran, sitting there with my hands in plain view. i asked the copper later and he was quite taken a back but seemed to appreciate the numerous officer safety issues he and his partner had created.

Almost Canadian

Do you genuinely believe this? I believe you have been a copper for more than 2 weeks. You have admitted that you have never shot anyone. How then, can you genuinely state that you need one? Have you not been performing your job for the time you have been a copper?