caretaker

A gun is one of those things that if you really need it nothing else will do.

Boy d

i agree to a point, but arming police at "a arms length soloution" is not really a solution at all. Most shootings are over in seconds....even a gun in the boot is of limited use. The UK has less gun crime but it doesn't have no gun crime. For most shootings, the onlyplace a gun is of reall use is strapped to your hip.

there is a place for response units but they or have virtually no use to front line coppers. It's the same here too.

Boy d

note to self....don't go to Hampshire....

No need to be a twat.....you know nothing of me...I too am a trained negotiator, spent years in major crime...i've never shot anyone, never, used spray, never used a taser, never used a baton...in fact only really been in about half dozen all out fights.i'm typical of the vast majority of coppers here. Yes i used conflict resolution each and every day as a copper...you learn quickly in this business that your mouth is your best piece of equipment....its the same the world over.

So in other words, UK villians don't see the police as a threat? I don't buy the, "if we're armed they will be". Most criminals think they can avoid the police and want to at all costs. Most are functioning dim wits not sophisticated villains as portrayed on TV. Besides, i rarely encounter armed criminals here. But they certainly exisit. It's the nutters who get guns that are the real danger to everyday folk....i dont think they care one way or the other what the police have/don't have.

As for being confronted 'many times' by armed suspects (firearms that is) i find it hard to believe. Even here in the land where you believe its half price day on armed encounters, most cops will never be in such a situation. It's one thing to attend 'gun calls' (ive been to hundreds) and a whole other thing to come face to face with someone. Showing up and saying, "right then, best get the big boys out" is not exactly difficult.

Boy d

indeed....perhaps one can carry a whistle and small piece of wood that will sort the buggers out. Lets give Dixon of Doc Green a shout shall we.

R I C H

Hey, who started the mudslinging by calling BS on my friend's opinion and attitude towards needing to carry a gun? That wasn't twattish?


Whatever. He's the senior lead negotiator for the force. First in line to be called for negotiation situations. 20+ years service. Seconded to the Met to train their staff, project leader for royal security duties etc etc. Believe what you like.


I hope you're not so disingenuous on duty.

As I said, you've never had the opportunity to try and see if conflict resolution by communication is more effective than carrying/relying on a weapon, have you? You can't make judgement on something on which you've no experience.

Former Lancastrian

Well no surprises here the thread has gone slightly off topic
We have heard arguments for and against arming of UK officers.
Now to turn it around how would most Canadian Police Forces and members react if it was claimed that the arming of police officers was being reviewed and statistics have shown that an unarmed UK copper is at the same risk as an armed Toronto police officer and that it is now planned to disarm all Canadian police officers.
I wonder what the reaction would be?

R I C H

Do you have a remote shred of evidence to support this, or are you just making s*** up to be provocative? I know threads go off topic, but at least contribute something that has some vague value.

Boy d

so you sought to accuse me of being some knee jerk copper who resorts to violence rather than resolution on the basis i called BS to a 'friend' of yours notion that they felt more at risk with a shooter....i say again, BS. No it wasn't twatish...

Have no experience outside of weapons now that really is a very sill comment RICH in name not brain power? I rarely take the damn thing out of the holster. Most police training is about how to not use a gun, not how to use it. Do you think we dispatch bullets like speeding tickets? Besides, "weapons" as you call them are very effident on a UK coppers belt...how about spary, baton, taser.....actually they are called "use of force options"...no gun leaves one with a signifcant reduction in options.

What does being a negotiator have to do with dynamics surrounding use of force? It's another tool. We do usually try and speak with out "clients" before we resort to such drastic actions.

anyhow...i'm done not seen any viable arguments to not be armed...it seems the over-riding one is:

arming the cops leads to more deaths....i callBS on that too

R I C H

That's not what I said though, is it?

Alan2005

You can be as dismissive as you like, but that what works in the UK.

For every incident that you can find where the copper might have done better with a gun, I can find an incident where somebody was shot that shouldn't have been.

Boy d

Think of it this way - if an armed suspect knows that any contact with a cop is going to entail the risk of a weapon being drawn, or being shot, as opposed to potentially being challenged by an unarmed cop, don't you think there's more likelihood of a nervous trigger finger from the suspect, or the feeling of a need to use the gun?


amounts to the same thing though.....

Former Lancastrian

Have you read the entire thread in full? There have been several posters asking for statistics and some were given. I believe since 2000 8 UK officers killed and 18 Canadian.
Is a UK unarmed copper more at risk in the UK than an armed Canadian one.
Statistics can be made to show a variety of things and dont always show the whole picture.
The UK has almost twice the population of Canada but we cant assume that it has double the crime. In fact figures show more Canadian officers are killed than UK ones so is Canada more violent than the UK with nearly half the population.
Why do Canadian officers carry guns and UK officers dont.
Im not making shit up as you claim to provoke its merely a question that has resulted in the nature of this thread. Have you seen me getting mad or reverting to calling posters names unlike others.
What evidence would you like produced Im sure if I searched I could find several reports which may meet your needs. what is it exactly you are looking for or just taking aim at me?

R I C H

You're arguing with yourself - I accused you of nothing of the sort. I've know this person for 35 years. We grew up together, best man at each others weddings. I think the term 'friend' is appropriate.


Where did I say that? Are you tampering with evidence? You have no experience of doing your job without having a gun at your side. That's the truth. You've no experience of policing in a society that doesn't expect you to be carrying a gun. You've no experience of not having your own gun to rely on if necessary. Clearer? Any less silly?


Yes of course I do


How defeatist

R I C H

How about something to back up your suggestion that 'an unarmed UK copper is at the same risk as an armed Toronto police officer'.

It's meaningless to compare an entire countries police force to a single city force, isn't it?

Oink

Most of the police in the UK have a very good sense of humour and it often gets them out of a tricky situation without the need for a firearm.