Is this sexual assault?
 

Is it sexual assault to poke holes in the condoms, thereby increasing chance of pregnancy/disease, without telling your partner?

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Good question. Wonder if it's the same if a woman says she's on the pill when in fatc she isn't?

Who in their right mind does shit like that (both sides) anyway :confused:

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

It would be if they transmitted aids or hiv. I am sure that this has been proven in court already.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

What if they became pregnant?

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I'm asking because a guy (craig hutchinson) has been found guilty of this in NS. In that case, he poked holes in the condoms and his girlfriend got pregnant when she didn't want to be.

However, the question is now being asked about whether a woman who did the same thing - lied about being on the pill, etc - could also be charged with sexual assault. "They" (talking heads, CBC) are saying this could have wide-ranging implications.

I lurk on a mothering board sometimes, it's surprising how many women admit to doing this kind of thing even if they know their partner isn't keen on a child.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Some guy was charged and found to be guilty of this in NS, so presumably it must be...

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

So what's your opinion? do you think it's the right decision?

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I'm not sure I would use the term "assault" - not sure what I would use "deception" maybe. :blink::confused:

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Seems somewhat odd. Its a breech of trust for sure, but I dont suppose there are too many laws that can be brought to bare. If the intent was to cause illness or suffering then I guess its assault. Based on my wifes 2nd pregnancy same rules probably apply for pregnancy!

Without knowing the circumstances at all, on the surface it seems odd to me that a personal relationship issue like this was dragged into the arena of law and order at all, but whaddaiknow.

Surely if kids, or the absence of them from the relationship, was as important as all that then they should have been relying on something beyond just condoms anyway, which are not exactly 100% reliable.

Did the mother have an abortion do you know?

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I wouldn't call it sexual assault as she is allowing the (sex)act to take place, but I would call it some kind of assault/harm.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

She did. Then he told her what he'd done and she went to the police.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Death Penalty I say.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

No different from moron in Hamilton ONt recently found guilty of infecting women with the HIV virus, he didn't feel the need to tell them before shagging them

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

i don't mind if it's a yes or no answer or a long answer or a witty remark ;)

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

It's assault with a loaded.weapon and he should have a long, stiff, stretch inside coming to him. Oer Mrs.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Doesnt this ultimatley mean that any aggrieved wife/ partner with kids could have their significant other charged with sexual assault if they got pissed off enough?

I mean, he has no way of knowing she would get pregnant, there is still an element of chance.

Shes got options to protect herself that she didnt take up and we all know condoms are not 100% effective

The "assault" itself was presumably mutally consensual....

What would she have done if it had just been an accidental pregnancy?

I find this a bit odd, although clearly hes a scumbag for doing it, so Ill get over it. She may be no better though in pressing charges... Thanks god they dont have kids eh...

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Kiwilass did say "witty remarks".

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

That's as good as it gets

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

We know....

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...tumbleweed.gif

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Isn't this similar to the reason Julian Assange was extradited to Sweden to face a rape charge? As I understand things he had consensual sex with a woman. The woman syas she thought/was told that he was wearing a condom, but he wasn't. She says that if she had known he was not wearing a condom she would not have consented. Therefore it was rape.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Surely that opens up a huge can of worms. I'm curious if the same would happen the other way around where a woman confirmed, via a lie, that she was on the pill when she was not.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility these days. I understand a woman confirming she's on the pill is more difficult to prove in the same way as a condom with holes in it, during the heat of the moment. But to not know somebody is wearing a condom, especially if it's a huge deal to you? Wow!!!

If you're not in a commited relationship, and/or do not want to have a pregnancy, make every effort to protect yourself by being as certain as you can be, don't do it, or take a leaf out of the "how to" book of Canadian school kids and do it up the bum.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

When was he extradited, I thought his lawyers are still trying to fight the ruling? Oh....there is more to the Assange case than just this, think of the actual leaks pertaining to the Americans

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I don't think a sexual assault has been committed. Don't know how sexual assault is actually defined in law, but I can't see (from a layman's point of view) how this can be classed as one. Cutting the end off a condom can't, per se, be an assault. Once he'd put the cut condom on, presumably consensual sex took place, so no assault there. If he hadn't cut the end off but she'd got pregnant because the condom broke or had a manufacturing flaw, that wouldn't be an assault, so why does the deliberate "sabotage" change that? Perhaps that's where the dilemma lies - it was a deliberate act that resulted in an increased chance of impregnating his partner, so does that constitute an assault?

He lied to her, sure; he may have broken other laws relating to trust and deception, sure; but I don't think he should be convicted of sexual assault.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

The least he or she can do in such instance if they choose not to be with the person, is paying alimony and everything needed by the kids till their 18yrs old or whatever the provincial rule is on when someone can be officially called an adult by signing official docs

Adoption is also another avenue, millions of people out there looking to have kids of their own but can't for one reason or another

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

To me it also trivialises other more obvious forms of non-consensual sexual assault too.

I can see how it could be seen as assault as he set out to "harm" her. Thats more clear cut with Aids or an STD, but Im not sure there is much legal basis to see a natural function like pregnancy as harmful.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

What if her condition was such that giving birth again would be harmful/potentially fatal to her ?

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

But trying to force parenthood on a person who has been very clear about the fact they don't want it is a form of harm, surely?

That goes for reluctant mums or dads.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

In that case her taking steps to protect herself would make sense to me.


Like I said, my OH would probably consider another pregnancy like #2 an assault anyway, regardless of additional complications.

Bottom line, he was reckless, but it takes 2 to have a child and either party can stop it happening. I can see how you can make a case that its assault as he could reasonably be expected to know that she would consider his actions as likely to cause her harm, but really this is domestic bickering and probably should never have gone to trial unless there was more to it than meets the eye.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

But she did take steps, she relied on condoms. They were sabotaged deliberately.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

So what about my comment about retroactively bringing action against a partner you now harbour a grudge against?


I clearly remember her saying something like "YOU DID THIS TO ME" in the delivery room...:ohmy:

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Noone should RELY solely on condoms, they are what, 98% effective under ideal conditions? more like 85% in the real world.

She shouldnt be relying on him if its that important to her anyway, especially as he seems to think having kids was worth doing this. You dont think the subject of kids came up in conversation between them at some point prior to the sabotage?

Marriage counselling, or just going their own separate ways would have been better that all this legal crap wouldnt it?

I suppose this is an open and shut case of "irreconcilable differences" now at least...

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

oooh what a whole big can of worms.

As others have said I wouldn't say "assault" (although don't know all the legal definitions) but decption definitely.

If you are that adamant you don't want a child, just relying on condoms (which can and have failed) is probably a bad idea. Although it is at least an idea.

Implications for the charge / conviction and future are huge.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

For sexual assault, there surely needs to be an element of forcing someone into the act?

Canada's Criminal Code has no specific "rape" provision. Instead, it defines assault and provides for a specific punishment for "sexual assault". In defining "assault", the Code includes physical contact and threats. The provision reads:

265. (1) A person commits an assault when

(a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;

(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or

(c) while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs.

(2) This section applies to all forms of assault, including sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm and aggravated sexual assault.


Whether someone engaged in sex under false pretences (as opposed to threats), or being mislead, or tricked - that must come other some other legislation?

Even if you are in the middle of a sexual act, and one party says "stop" - anything after that point could be assault.

I'm not sure where you draw the line at "well, if I had know he was carrying sperm, HIV, whatever, I wouldn't have consented" ... it's difficult to unravel.

Is pregnancy or the possibility of pregnancy "causing bodily harm"? It must surely be judged on a case by case basis. If I got pregnant now, there might be harm to my husband! :sneaky:

The possibility of getting HIV is easier to define.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I agree to a point. Isn't it like not wanting to be hurt in a car crash so you choose to drive slowly instead of also using a seatbelt?

If i, as a man, really didn't want to get anybody pregnant, i would always use a condom. I would imagine if i were a woman with the same mindset, i would always take personal precautions so as to not put my eggs (or seed) in one basket hoping for the best. In both cases, i'd not rely on the other person.

It still doesn't make what he did right, however.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Yup I think that's an issue for sure. There would have to be some way of proving deliberately lying/sabotage.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Well, don't know the specifics of case. Apparently she did not want kids. not everyone can take the pill and not all contraception is failsafe.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I know, but he deliberately sabotaged and betrayed her.

I'm going to guess most of us in long term relationships have, at some point, developed a level of trust where you don't have to be on guard all the time and assume the other person is out to get you - that's not realistic surely? Contraception in most situations is a mutual choice.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

Condoms certainly arent.

Vasectomy / tied tubes is... so is abstention if that floats your boat.

He was in the wrong to do what he did, but to class this alongside rape and other "real" sexual assaults just seems wrong, the courts really shouldnt be dealing with what is in effect a "marital" disagreement as a criminal case.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

I would have to say it is. If it is deemed rape when a woman says no then deception should be considered the same.

Re: Is this sexual assault?
 

She didnt say no, she said yes, but I dont want kids.

But if her consent was conditional on him using an intact condom, and he intentionally broke them, then there is a case to answer.

Were these two a couple, or was this just a one night stand? Im assuming there was a relationship, but maybe not...