MikeUK

As it’s the season, and block heaters seem to be over and done with, along with debates about the usefulness of winter tires.

Can we start the annual disagreement about the validity of remembrance day in the 21st century?
Or is too early..

I know its tradition for it to start by some grumpy old sod moaning about the youth of today not caring (after the 11th), but I thought I change the traditional approach and start early it by asking the question;

In a world driven by low risk mechanized warfare, and the use of unmanned drones by western forces, and one in which the vast majority of those killed are civilians, does remembrance day have any place in modern society?

Alan2005

It's a day off - I like days off.

ireland2canada

I don't get a day off work, however I would like to be the first to use the word lest.

Lest.

Alan2005

Well done, but has nobody ever told you that lest is more. Honestly, I don't know what's happening to the standard of my jokes now-a-days - probably nothing other than I'm becoming more aware of how crap they always were.

Anyway, I'd like to post something controversial about dead trained killers, but what I like more is that I just don't care (other than getting a day off - so, yeah, thanks dead people)

Almost Canadian

Only someone that has never put his life on the line for another would say something as inaccurate as this.

Try telling the families of the armed forces personnel of those killed in recent theatres that modern warfare is a low risk mechanized one.

Do you actually know what most unmanned drones do, or, once again, are you showing that you are an armchair expert that has no actual knowledge at all?

The fact of the matter is that those for whom Remembrance Day has real meaning, care little of what you think.

Novocastrian

Does your use of the masculine pronoun rule out mothers?

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a higher percentage of pregnant women die in childbirth than the percentage of soldiers these days that die in combat.

There's no doubt, whatever the statistics are, that more ordinary women all over the world, put their life on the line for another.

MikeUK

Having been born in a military hospital, grown up as a child playing on the parade ground of Larkhill artillery school, being expected to take my place in the family regiment, there’s a dam good reason I chose not to put my life of the line for a political agenda.
To be honest I nearly joined the RAF, but after a long sit down with my grandfather a medic in the second world war and reflection on what the military did for my family as I grew up, I went on to study chemistry and physics and went into industry to do something productive with my life.

I’ll honour Remembrance Day, for those that lost their lives in the 1st and 2nd world wars, the vast majority conscripts doing what they had too.

I will not honour the extremely well equipped paid soldier (my dad’s generation and onwards)who goes off to a distant land to fight a political battle more often than not to meet the needs of the government corporate sponsors.

Almost Canadian

Is the person that I quoted a mother? I have no idea, I assumed his gender to be male, I apologize if I made an incorrect assumption

Neither would I; your point being?

In what way and how is that relevant to this thread?

I don't know of many that are forced to participate in Remembrance Day. If people choose not to participate; that is fine with me. If people choose to demonstrate in the face of others participating; that is fine with me also although, as I am sure you will accept, I will have little respect for them. I am sure they won't care about how I feel about them.

There are people that perform selfless acts all over the world that do not wear uniforms. Good for them.

I am sure that there are those that believe that all issues in the world can be solved without armed conflict. History has taught us that armed conflicts have been occuring since humans learned how to use weapons, and will likely continue until there is no human left on the planet.

I am grateful that people died in conflicts of the past to enable me to live the life I do today. There was a time when I came very close to being someone that people would remember. I am glad that there are others that will do so in the future.

How people choose to react to Remembrance Day gives, IMHO, a good insight into the character of that person.

Almost Canadian

Despite your childhood, your ignorance is astounding. Ask those that fought in the recent Gulf War how well equipped they were.

Your signature line is very apt.

As I said, you made your choice and I have no issue with that at all. I am grateful that there are those prepared to risk all for me or for others. I care not a whit about the political statement you wish to make, nor, I suspect, do most of those that are currently serving.

Please explain to me, if you are able, which government corporate sponsors benefitted by, let's say, NATO's intervention in Bosnia; the UN's intervention in Rwanda?

Alan2005

I'm going to have a nice lie in. Although it can't be too long as I'll have to get up and walk the dogs lest they crap in the house.

MikeUK

I don't need to, I knew some that went and some that never came back, but all in all they were much better equipped than those they fought..

Even my school friends that went to the Falklands who equipment was substandard for what they could have had, were again much much better off that those they fought against.

Consider those in Afghanistan , you don’t see the mujahedeen with modern light small arms, shaped explosive devices, armor plated vehicles.

The risk in warfare these days is heavily skewed in favor of the modern western soldier, its certainly not a fair fight anymore, rather a slow slaughter until the opposition loses the stomach to fight or runs out of manpower.

Almost Canadian

I have no issue with that and wish you a good day.

Novocastrian

I didn't notice you quoting anyone. I assume the sickly phrase was your own. I apologise if I made an incorrect assumption.

Being that I can't abide present day wailing over the deaths of professional military and the attempts to convolute that with the fate of conscripts and volunteers in the first half of the last century. The use of the phrase "no-one who has never put their life on the line for another" is entitled to an opinion rankled just a touch.

BTW, I wasn't far off. I know these aren't exactly comparable, but the best I could do in the time available. There appear to be roughly 100,000 Canadian Forces personnel of whom 117 were killed in combat in Afghanistan between 2002 and today. Thats 13.3/100,000 per year.

In 2006, the rate of women dying in childbirth in the US (yes, not Canada, I couldn't find the data), was 13.3/100,000 pregnancies.

Which day of the year should we remember them?

Almost Canadian

Again, you are demonstrating your ignorance. What are the "mujahedeen" fighting with if not modern, light small arms? What good is an armour plated vehicle in the areas where the fighting actually takes place in Afghanistan (google it, I am sure you will find the answer there somewhere)

How would you know anything about the risk in warfare these days?

I believe that the Vietnam War amply demonstrated the fallacy of your argument.

When was warfare ever a fair fight?

Get off your soapbox and put forward a well reasoned argument. Are you posting remotely from some Occupy ... location?

Almost Canadian

You need to look at the context in which I said it, and I stand by everything I said and, for the avoidance of any doubt, I was talking about "low risk mechanized warfare"

Comparing 100,000 CF personnel with the number killed is a bit like comparing the number of women in the US with the number killed during childbirth. What is the death rate of CF personnel of those in theatre?

In any event, it matters little.

You can remember them on any day you wish. If you obtain enough support, you may even be able to persuade those around you and those that represent you to arrange some form of remembrance event for them. I would not wish to rain on your parade should you wish to do so, but then I am an advocate of freedom of expression and all that.