Yes, of course it was over oil. But Tony and George didn't know that, and the American service men definitely didn't know that.

iaink

I applaud you for taking this topic publicly

I think the new Pope seems to be better than his predecessor, and I can imagine that religion does provide a lot of hope and relief for many. I disagree that the issue of sexual abuse and cover up is just a "soft target" though. It is a hard reality that all Catholics should look keenly into IMHO.

Ireland. Not desperately poor but a country oppressed by Catholicism.

No. But that doesn't mean we should indulge an organisation that is supportive of paedophilia and confers honours on its apologists. If you don't condone this sort of thing then you can't, in good conscience, attend a Catholic church.

I'm sorry to have to get into this again but you wanted to focus on the last Pope. He's all about child abuse. His career is primarily associated with child abuse. Not to drone on about it would be like considering Thatcher without the miners.

I like the phrase "soft target". It seems to me that that's exactly the positive church members (yswidt?) derive from their faith.

My MIL was kicked out of her church in QC because she stopped sprogging after three kids. Quite literally blackballed because she was a bad person. You're only looking at a few decades ago.

No wonder people have abandoned the church in droves.

My former f-i-l was also kicked out. Church people behave in a very high and mighty manner, like they're on a mission from God or something.

I think Iain's become the Nigella of the board, obliged to condone.

Nicely put.

Church people, what all billion plus of them? Give me a break. With 10% of the worlds population self identifying as Catholic its hardly a surprise that there are some bad ones is it.

Im not "obliged to condone", fifteen years ago I shared exactly the same blinkered view that you do. But if you dont hang out with churchy people then there is no reason to challenge your own preconceptions. Now I know a few church people, and many of them are very fine upstanding citizens who do a lot of good in the world. Without church you can argue that they would perhaps be inclined to be the same, but in this world the church is the channel through which they act, and a lot of good comes from that despite the bad things that have also happened.

Im not arguing that two wrongs make a right, the church did not do right by the victims of the abusers within the church, but if we must resort to cliches my view is not the throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not to defend the inaction of the church, but its no surprise to me that in a church where sins are confessed in private and forgiveness and redemption sought, that the senior management did not throw abusers to the wolves, but rather sought to resolve the problems within the church. It was of course very naive and positively negligent of them to think that abusers would not re-offend and absolutely insensitive to the victims, and though I dont condone how it was managed its very obvious to me at least that it was a very catholic approach, so I dont think it much matters who was CEO at the time. Now with the benefits of hind site they are finally beginning to get to grips with the problem in a more acceptable way.

As for thatcher and the miners, well, yes, if you cant see that there was a LOT more about her than just that one thing then perhaps we should just leave this here.

Anyway Ive given my perspective and remembered why I am now an infrequent visitor here.

Thank you for your perspective. No need to be an infrequent visitor simply because others disagree with it.

Disagreeing is fine. Comparing me to Nigella not so much