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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   PM Boris (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/pm-boris-926655/)

Jingsamichty Sep 10th 2019 2:50 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733810)
I disagree. In or out were the only options. It is only after the result that the losing side has attempted to argue that leaving didn't actually mean leaving.

In any event, there can be no disputing what the options are now and an election would provide all those that campaign with a clear mandate and, if the result of the election is as close as you believe it will be, that will give those that are elected support for the whole "leave didn't actually mean leave" argument. However, if the result massively favours the PM's current position, they should then respect both of the results.
No, it's like saying that had Remain won, that meant joining the Euro and a new European Army, and all speaking French or German.

Almost Canadian Sep 10th 2019 2:52 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12733812)
Because Boris wants a snap election before the EU Commission meeting on Oct17-18th, or so he says. Nobody trusts him not to move the date to November if the opposition were stupid enough to approve an election under the Fixed Term Election Act prior to no-deal being ditched. That may well be the ditch that Boris dies in,
I accept that. But I would assume that those clever people in Parliament would have been able to come upon with a way that ensured that the election had to occur by mid October. It seems they couldn't and, if Boris is the crafty bastard they believe him to be, I can foresee that he will find a way to ensure that, come October 31, 2019, the UK leaves the EU with no deal.

Novocastrian Sep 10th 2019 3:00 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733817)
I accept that. But I would assume that those clever people in Parliament would have been able to come upon with a way that ensured that the election had to occur by mid October. It seems they couldn't and, if Boris is the crafty bastard they believe him to be, I can foresee that he will find a way to ensure that, come October 31, 2019, the UK leaves the EU with no deal.
Well the crafty bastard is Cummings, not Johnson who would be better described as an egomaniacal incompetent. But yes, the HoC couldn't find a way to stop the pair of them shifting the date once a 2/3rd majority had authorised an election writ. That's why they passed the No-Deal/ Extension Request Law and will wait for action on that law before approving an election.

It's not that hard to follow the events of today.

jimf Sep 10th 2019 3:25 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733810)
I disagree. In or out were the only options. It is only after the result that the losing side has attempted to argue that leaving didn't actually mean leaving.

In any event, there can be no disputing what the options are now and an election would provide all those that campaign with a clear mandate and, if the result of the election is as close as you believe it will be, that will give those that are elected support for the whole "leave didn't actually mean leave" argument. However, if the result massively favours the PM's current position, they should then respect both of the results.
The main problem with the referendum is that it was 25 years too late. There should have been a referendum to approve the transfer of parliamentary power out of the country then. I seem to remember that one item in the Maastricht Treaty originally was to delete citizenship of the nation state and replace it with citizenship of the EU alone. Fortunately Denmark had a referendum on the treaty and it was removed. Labour also promised a referendum in the 2005 manifesto but didn’t follow through.

I though the discussion on Newsnight last Friday was quite a reasonable summing up of the situation, at least from the non conservative/labour members of the panel. Parliament hasn’t been up to the task so far.

BristolUK Sep 10th 2019 3:30 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 12733760)
On the contrary, it is the most exciting, crazy time you could image....What a great time to be alive and in the thick of it!!
Oh I agree it's exciting. Last week was riveting. I was even watching Parliament Live. I haven't done anything like that since the 80s.

By being glad I'm not living there I meant with reference to things like being at work, hearing a couple of people talking about it in daily mail or sun style and trying not to react. :tape:

Shard Sep 10th 2019 3:31 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733810)
I disagree. In or out were the only options. It is only after the result that the losing side has attempted to argue that leaving didn't actually mean leaving.

.
This is whole problem with leave, it means different things to to different leave voters. Some wanted out of everything, some only wanted out of the political institutions, some only the economic.

Almost Canadian Sep 10th 2019 3:38 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12733825)
This is whole problem with leave, it means different things to to different leave voters. Some wanted out of everything, some only wanted out of the political institutions, some only the economic.
Maybe. But leaving meant to leave. If that wasn't researched properly by people before they voted, or if the remain campaign didn't make that abundantly clear, it doesn't alter the fact that it is impossible to remain and also to leave. It appears to me that the remain campaign dropped the ball. I accept that some will try to argue about the lies the leave campaign put forward, but, if the benefit of staying were so good, that should have been made clear by the remain campaign, such that no one in their right mind would have voted to leave.

Novocastrian Sep 10th 2019 3:48 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by jimf (Post 12733822)

The main problem with the referendum is that it was 25 years too late. There should have been a referendum to approve the transfer of parliamentary power out of the country then. I seem to remember that one item in the Maastricht Treaty originally was to delete citizenship of the nation state and replace it with citizenship of the EU alone. Fortunately Denmark had a referendum on the treaty and it was removed. Labour also promised a referendum in the 2005 manifesto but didn’t follow through.

I though the discussion on Newsnight last Friday was quite a reasonable summing up of the situation, at least from the non conservative/labour members of the panel. Parliament hasn’t been up to the task so far.
No mention that here https://www.ecb.europa.eu/explainers...tricht.en.html

Atlantic Xpat Sep 10th 2019 4:01 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733829)
It appears to me that the remain campaign dropped the ball. I
Fascinating long read article on David Cameron which rather agrees with that here:: https://members.tortoisemedia.com/20...rding_20190907


Novocastrian Sep 10th 2019 4:02 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733829)
Maybe. But leaving meant to leave. If that wasn't researched properly by people before they voted, or if the remain campaign didn't make that abundantly clear, it doesn't alter the fact that it is impossible to remain and also to leave. It appears to me that the remain campaign dropped the ball. I accept that some will try to argue about the lies the leave campaign put forward, but, if the benefit of staying were so good, that should have been made clear by the remain campaign, such that no one in their right mind would have voted to leave.
Have you been converted to Manichaeism? Look it up and you'll find it was a Dualistic religion which considered everything was either "Good" or "Evil" with no middle ground.

If that's a bit too heavy for you to deal with, try 50 Shades of Grey.

Shard Sep 10th 2019 4:04 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12733829)
Maybe. But leaving meant to leave. If that wasn't researched properly by people before they voted, or if the remain campaign didn't make that abundantly clear, it doesn't alter the fact that it is impossible to remain and also to leave. It appears to me that the remain campaign dropped the ball. I accept that some will try to argue about the lies the leave campaign put forward, but, if the benefit of staying were so good, that should have been made clear by the remain campaign, such that no one in their right mind would have voted to leave.
It's quite a challenge to explain to the public the extent of economic and legal integration that exists between the two countries. Even you as a lawyer do not seem to grasp that this is different from a divorce between two individuals. We're not going to stop trading with the EU, we're not going to stop investing in each others markets or employing each others citizens. So it becomes a question of the most efficient way to do that. What is the point of a complete break if we then need to spend a decade trying to replicate what we already have.

jimf Sep 10th 2019 4:06 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12733831)
Danish opt out on citizenship is in the Edinburgh Agreement. Amsterdam Treaty implemented this across all EU members.

Shard Sep 10th 2019 4:07 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12733838)
Have you been converted to Manichaeism? Look it up and you'll find it was a Dualistic religion which considered everything was either "Good" or "Evil" with no middle ground.

If that's a bit too heavy for you to deal with, try 50 Shades of Grey.
Converted? I've called AC a black & white thinker so many times over the years that I'm embarrassed to keep pointing it out.

Atlantic Xpat Sep 10th 2019 4:08 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12733839)
It's quite a challenge to explain to the public the extent of economic and legal integration that exists between the two countries. Even you as a lawyer do not seem to grasp that this is different from a divorce between two individuals. We're not going to stop trading with the EU, we're not going to stop investing in each others markets or employing each others citizens. So it becomes a question of the most efficient way to do that. What is the point of a complete break if we then need to spend a decade trying to replicate what we already have.
I've worked in Supply Chain and Logistics most of my career. The integration of supply chains across Europe & the seamless customs processes are a mystery to most of the Great British public, especially the Leaver types. I fear they are all in for a rude awakening come the dawn of a no deal Brexit.

Almost Canadian Sep 10th 2019 4:28 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12733838)
Have you been converted to Manichaeism? Look it up and you'll find it was a Dualistic religion which considered everything was either "Good" or "Evil" with no middle ground.

If that's a bit too heavy for you to deal with, try 50 Shades of Grey.
I suggest you give your head a shake and then review the question that was posed in 2016.


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