OK

I can think of very few situations where lethal force is required in self defence. Liberals would always state that there is an alternative (why not just let the knife wielding maniac rape you, surely it's better to be raped than to have to kill another) and all such crap.

I find your preference to life long incarceration, in a small cell with little stimulation, with neighbours that are questionable, with no hope of ever seeing the outside world again, rather than a quick bullet to the head strange, but I accept your view is entitled to as much respect as mine.

So what do you think should have happened to Charles Manson?

No - agree - sometimes there isn't an alternative.

That at least as the advantage that mistakes can be rectified; how many people in the US are executed when they shouldn't be.

As far as costs go I remember reading that a prisoner on death row ends up costing more than one simply in jail for life - don't know if it's true though.

Still - I guess we've stated our positions and it's probably time to let this thread at least have some semblance of being on topic

I know a lot about the victims of crime thank you, more than anyone should. I see everyday what serious crime does to people - up close and personal. You have taken my comment out of context. I meant necessary in the vein that it's unfortunate that a small percentage of society don't follow the rules and have to be incarcerated and not, as you seem to have assumed that I am some sort of bleeding heart liberal.

TV is a very cheap and effective way to keep inmates occupied- you know what they say about idle hands and all that. Yes golf - although I've never seen anyone heading down to the green, is silly. If they do, they are probably at halfway type institutions for non violent offenders. I spend a lot of time at Surrey pretrial and North Fraser pretrial, mountain and matsqui - believe me they are miserable and depressing - as they should be.

Actually the Criminal code allows the use of 'reasonable force' if you fear death or grievous bodily harm to your self or others, this includes lethal force - this is the same section police get their powers from. So you are wrong, regardless of what those are liberal minded may say, you can,sir, use as much force as you feel is necessary.

Is there a point here? Why don't you exercise some independent and objective thinking instead of joining the masses.

I agree that prisons are too lenient here but I also feel that prisonsin the US are too far the other way - yes sentences are pathetic - don’t think I ever said that we should be pampering them? I’ve banged up rapists, murders, child molesters, robbers etc and have lost sleep at how little time they spend in jail. We need to find middle ground and there is no one size fits all some deserve to rot in jail - others don't, none deserve to die.

I’m also surprised that you have failed to acknowledge that prisoners without distractions can be dangerous - treat people like animals, they behave like animals. TV is a very cheap and effective way at keeping prisoners occupied. Golf courses, gyms and internet - yes very silly. I work with a lot of ex prison guards (now cops) and I know this is widely accepted

The reality is that not all prisoners are evil, many are drug addicts, some were misguided, some were naive, some made mistakes, many are mentally ill - should they spend eternity in sub standard conditions, beaten and raped on a daily basis? They are not all murders and rapists. Yes there are Clifford Olson and the Son of Sam and the rest, but they are a small percentage of the overall population and deserve to rot - incidentally Olson is a designated dangerous offender and will never see the light of day. It really is an oversimplification to assumesomeone is in jail - they are evil. I spent years as a beat cop here,got to know the crooks, they all have a story, some are vile and evil, most are not, pathetic yes, evil no.

Your comments are the typical and naive variety of those that are not in touch with the reality of how complex our society has become. Sure, lets kill the really bad ones, and the others, well they can rot in a cell, deprived of any of the trappings of civility. I sure hope you don’t drive too fast in the US, and accidentallykill someone, we may not see you for a while a very long while. What ifa family member was picked up with a couple of pounds of dope in the US?Would he/she deserve to spend 10 years in jail in a max security prison? How about 5?

There was a widely publicized case in the States where some kids, out drinking decided to steal a stop sign - bad move - a family did not stop and were all killed - sentenced as adults - no chance of parole - ever. Not civilized - there should be consequences ..... but come on!

As for the death sentence, it’s not a way for a civilized nation to act - there are too many things that can go wrong. And its way more
expensive to execute than house in jail. And for all the musings about the US has it right...... doesn’t seem to be deterring anything does
it? Personally I’d rather see someone rot in jail - that’s the purpose it serves.

edit: I still have yet to figure out multi quoting - sorry

From a Paremedic strike to social economics and incarceration.... Well done everyone.
Great thread tho; I've been watching it intently.
Bboy, its hard to explain to those that watch events through a TV screen, news paper or computer. Most have no freakin idea as to what goes on in real life and the expectations and responsbilities of those that have to make the decisions that sometimes make the evening "news".
Ah the Tazer incident.... There's an easy subject to bring up as EVERYONE has an opinon on that lol....
I saw an article critisizing the officers that decided to use a tazer to subdue an agitated, knife wielding individual in the hospital last year.... They suggested the RCMP officer should of used a blanket to cover the person up first. Jesus christ, a freakin blanket?! I was suprised they didn't shoot the idiot instead of using restraint and tazing him. I respect the officer for trying to use the tazer fist; I for one would have shot him, (hence why I probably wouldn't pass the behavioral interview). Some people have no goddamn idea about reality sitting infront of a computer screen or arm chair watching TV. I see it every day; people are idiots. We're losing our common sense so rapidly it's scary.

Its ironic that the US has more of it citizens incarcerated than any other developed country in the world.... Sounds to me like its not working there either, despite the reality of capital punishment or super max prisons.
3 strikes means sh!t.

When did I say it was never allowed. I suggest you read what I actually posted (and what you actually quoted) and, trusting that you are sufficiently civil, apologise for stating that I am wrong.

I said nothing about sentence lengths.

I am an "ex Prison Guard". I was not stating that prison was soft, I said that that was stated by the inmates.

Where did I say otherwise?

Accidentally killing somebody does not make one a murderer. Do you actually read posts?

Re-read the fact statement scenario I gave and then maybe you will be able to respond to my previous post appropriately.

What has this got to do with the price of fish?

I fail to see how putting a bullet in someone's head is more expensive than keeping them incarcerated for life. I doubt very much that China spends much money executing those it does. The US may spend more but then the US is hardly the epitome of perfection when it comes to demonstrating the ability to do things reasonably is it?

you said something about not being able to think of any situation where lethal force can be used in self defence - the Criminal Code of Canada disagrees with you.

I actually said that I could think of very few situations ...

As I said, to avoid making yourself look rathy silly, read posts, particularly when directed to do so

Not all my comments are directed squarely at you this is a forum and I am passing on 'my' opinions, opinions that are based on my experiences.

I'm really not going to comment about the death penalty - you have your view, I have mine. If my family member were to be murdered I would probably want the bastard executed - but I'm trying to be objective and see it from society's point of view and not mine alone. Ah, yes China, there's a country to emulate on its humanitarian front.

You remind me of a small child who highlights inconsequential facts that don't change the heart of the matter, I think the only one who is looking silly here is you. This could have been an interesting debate but you've made it about you and not the real issues.