Re: Masks
 

Masks are not mandatory where I am however I do have one at home. I needed bread and milk this morning but was prepared to pick up other items just to fill the basket and I don't like using the debit card for purchases under $20 and now feel guilty of handing over a $10 bill. Saw that Walmart was open at 7am for seniors, the disabled, and those with vulnerable health conditions.So I decided to risk it as I believe my age qualifies me at some places but not others. Arrived at 7.30 and about 100 vehicles on the lot. Walked into the store picked up basket and followed the directional arrows. Encountered 3 x student type looking Asian males with a full cart and blocking my path. Definitely not seniors so must have fallen into the categories of disabled or have a vulnerable health condition. Without speaking to them or asking questions I cant say for certain they would fall into the "We don't really give a **** category or something else.
Anyway lots of others in the store who also didn't appear to fit into those categories and treating the directional arrows as a suggestion. In and out within 30 minutes and took the long way home to give the battery in the car a work out as it has been sat for a week without moving.
This is the new normal for most of us.

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I do but that's a controversial stance.

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There seems to be a correlation between mass outbreak and where there are underground transit/subway systems.

I haven't warn a mask yet but I think to curb outbreak in future that if people are riding the TTC for example that for now it should be a requirement.

They have enforced social distancing in my building elevators where only 3 people are allowed to ride it at once unless it's a family. Perhaps return the elevators to normal but face masks are required.

Outside of these enclosed environments I don't think masks are necessary- the goal in the longer term is some sort of herd immunity and our focus is really on keeping hospital submissions at a low rate.

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Oh heavens...I've been standing on the line and then shuffling forward to the next one...nobody has said anything...

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I've not experienced this, nor seen examples, but if the lines are the necessary distance apart I would expect people to stand on the lines (or just behind like in Darts) and that way everyone would be the required distance apart.

If you stand in between the lines but not exactly halfway you may be too close to the person behind or in front who is also between the lines but not exactly halfway.

At my blood test last month, the waiting area had every third seat taped off. This allowed two people to sit together - which would only be good if they were a couple from the same household. It also meant that people could sit either side of the taped off seat only about three feet apart. :unsure:

This at the hospital. :huh:

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Gov. Cuomo of NY made a good point re wearing masks: ‘Wear a face mask as a curtesy to others.’ :thumbsup:

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I went to Costco this morning, first time since all this Brouhaha erupted...and I had a prescription to pick up. In it's usual way they had it all sorted out...a nice little round circle on the floor with an imprint of two feet...I knew exactly what I had to do...they have dealt with the general public in all our multi faceted hues and they don't leave anything to chance ! I stepped forth with a sense of confidence...

Re: Masks
 

Further to the standing between the lines or on them, think of the lines in a car park. You park between the lines but if one car is slightly closer to the line on the right and the next car on that side is closer to the left line, they are both between the lines but so close that one driver may not be able to open the door. :lol:


That was the only trace left of the previous customer who was zapped by the laser for standing in the wrong place. :rofl:

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As you say wearing masks in certain situations is probably is probably a sensible approach, alongside taking other precautions. No. 1 of the list of precautions is probably to not eat bats, not sharing glasses Austrian ski resort drinking games style probably in the top 5, surgeon whose face is approx 2 feet from someones open chest perhaps in the top 10, wearing a mask on busy transit maybe no. 20, wearing a mask in Safeway at 8pm when there are about 3 other people in the store about no. 75, wearing a mask in the park no. 135 etc.

Today would be a good day to get out the Darth Vader mask for a trip to Costo, Canadian Tire. Perhaps accessorize with a light sabre to assist in enforcing 6 foot exclusion zone.

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The reality of our Covid-19 lives is going to be the need to wear masks in certain circumstances - particularly when you can't maintain physical distancing - transit being a prime example. Wearing masks - home made, non-medical - is to prevent the spread not to protect the wearer. You can argue all you like against the effectiveness, the discomfort, your civil liberties (if you so choose) but mask use will be required in many places and societal pressure will cover the rest. No sir, you can't come in my store, unless you wear a mask.

Those of us who are more than averagely cranial endowed - I wear a 3XL crash helmet for example - will need custom home made masks. Mrs AX has started making some masks for us today and the standard fit is way too small for yours truly. I looked like a fatter Plug from the Beano..... :-)

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Quite frankly I think it is irresponsible not to wear a mask when you are out, unless you are in a remote area.

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saw this on Facebook. No idea if it works but
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...010146d5b4.png

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Thx i will try it right now, will report back.

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When I used to commute to work by motorcycle in the UK, I used this anti-fog spray for the inside of my visor. I'm sure you can buy similar products over here, it worked really well.

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Seems to work, will know more when i go out at 4.00am tomorrow. Worst part was being blind for 20 mins while the specs dried out.

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Did you take them off first? ;)

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With the greatest of respect...

I didn't suggest that I was the only one that had undertaken research, I mentioned my research in an attempt to give context to my opinion.

I am happy for others to have opinions that differ from my own and I haven't stated that anyone's position is right or wrong. If people wish to wear masks, I am perfectly happy for them to do so.

I don't believe that asking questions is "deliberately challenging" and I am happy for others to act precisely how they wish.

My simple point remains, there appears to be no science upon which the requirement to have to wear masks is based. Experiments that demonstrate how far droplets can travel fail to take into account that, supposedly, we are sneezing into our elbows or placing something else in the path.

I anticipate that a future "requirement for the societal good" will be everybody having to install an app that shows where they have been just to ensure "...that we can tell who you have come into close contact with so that, if either of your contracts the virus, we can inform the others."

The health system has not been overwhelmed. ICUs in Alberta are at about 5% capacity and the only real hotspot appears to be Quebec but, despite this, their government intends to ease the lockdown. Put simply, there are contradictions everywhere.

I will cease any further posts in case you decide that my posts are "too political" and they have them hived off to a thread all of their own!

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Reasonable primer on mask wearing

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...urself/610336/

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That is too far for me. The virus has brought some civil liberty issues to the fore and while, for example, I admire the effectiveness of the New Zealand government in managing the pandemic I'm uneasy about the level of power that government has. I don't feel the need to walk into the chambers of government waving a weapon but being tracked all the time, no thanks.

Re: Masks
 

Likewise. But I have to say that you don't seem to pay much attention to everything that's in 'the news'
But you say there is no evidence which is pretty much suggesting research wihich disagrees you can't exist.
So when scientists specifically say that the virus can be passed by aerosols which will go through the mask but that the masks are capable of stopping droplets that's what, making it up? You asked why the change. I answered. It's been well covered in the media. In the early days there was a shortage. So as not to deprive frontline workers of the limited supplies, their usefulness as protection was played down while it was also stated the main advantage of the basic ones was to protect other people.
Their usefulness is now not as played down as it was previously. I'm sure you are capable of seeing the obvious.

And this apparently is just like your other belief that everyone religiously observes the physical distancing thing. What if your hands are full? What if you just don't observe the niceties, like people who gob in the street? Are you completely unaware of people complaining that they get brushed up against or leaned over? Or people who deliberately cough at others? All this has escaped your notice?
You anticipate something that has been in the media for weeks. You missed it again? A trial and further roll out in the UK has already been announced. You know Alberta announced it last week do you? More than 86,000 Albertans downloaded the app in the first few days. Other countries started theirs last week.

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There is no research that suggests that mask wearing will affect transmission. It may be that it does become available but, currently, it doesn't exist.

If it can be transmitted by aerosols that can pass through the mask what is the purpose of the mask? Your statement, not mine. If your statements are correct, why hasn't any government in Canada required the use of masks in regular day to day life?

The media reporting something is not scientific fact. I am sure you are capable of appreciating that. We have dealt with your shortage argument above. Scientists qualifying what they say with the use of words like "may" is not science either. As I have stated, I have no issue with anyone making a choice to wear a mask. If governments wish to compel the use of masks, and state that they are relying upon science to do so, I wish for them to produce the science.

If my hands were full I would do something simple like sneeze downwards or raise whatever I was carrying so that I placed them between my nose and whatever I was attempting to avoid spraying. I have been taking public transport throughout this period and everybody has been keeping 6 feet away from one another. People that spit in the street are unlikely to spit at another and, if they do, I don't believe that they would not be able to lower their mask to enable them to do so.

It is an indisputable fact that planes were deliberately flown into 2 large buildings in 2001. Should all such buildings be knocked down as it may happen again? Governments know that smoking kills people - an indisputable fact. I doubt that anyone can put forward a suggestion that smoking is a benefit to someone that has never tried it before, yet governments allow the sale of products that they know have a proven downside to society.

I am not aware of any jurisdiction that has compelled its use. I am aware that apps exist and, if people wish to use them, good for them. The issue I have is with governments making it compulsory. They are two very different things and I would have thought that an intelligent person would be able to distinguish the difference between the two.

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I don't know why I bother. But I'm going to.
Here is a news report on the latest non-existent piece of research. Some agree, some disagree, but the research is there.

Here's another. "We identified seasonal human coronaviruses, influenza viruses and rhinoviruses in exhaled breath and coughs of children and adults with acute respiratory illness. Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets. Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals."

Or this. "There have been several studies on the use of medical masks outside of the hospital setting."
Again, some disagree, some don't but the research is there. Some research has different findings. But the research is there.

Strewth, did you not read the part about droplets? Aerosols pass through, droplets being bigger less likely to.
Answered twice already. And it's being considered. Perhaps you will be satisfied then

Re: Masks
 

You seem particularly obsessed with getting me to change my opinion. Why are you unable to accept that our opinions differ and leave it there?

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"Sir Patrick said the evidence of the effectiveness of wearing face coverings in public was "not straightforward" but added they could have a "marginal but positive" impact on reducing the spread of the virus."

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-05-05/...are-committee/

Given that others not wearing masks does appear to cause anxiety in some individuals wearing a mask may well be a considerate thing to do.

Boris and Nicola seem to be advocates of wearing masks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9493061.html

Re: Masks
 

If your opinion was "I've not seen evidence that I believe or are prepared to accept that use of masks reduces transmission" then thats one thing, your opinion, you do you etc. But you stated "there is no evidence". Well there is. You may not find it credible, you may not want to believe it, but it exists and both Bristol and I have linked to it. Changing your opinion on mask use? No, that's not likely is it, but to go back to my earlier theme at some point it's likely to be irrelevant whether you accept or don't accept that wearing a mask is necessary. You'll have to do so , irrespective of you feelings on the subject. Getting on a plane today is a good example and I suspect that getting on a plane in a years time may require one to wear a mask..

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If face masks do not stop the spread of germs, why do doctors, dentists etc wear them?

Re: Masks
 

OK. If your premise is correct, are you able to explain why, in Canada, wearing a mask during general day to day going about life is not compulsory? Do you believe that all of the relevant governments are acting against the interests of their residents?

I accept.that, if mask wearing hecomes compulsory, I will have to wear one or face the consequences. I don't believe I have stated otherwise.

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I don't know, I don't make policy. I suspect its as much to do with supply (scarcity of) as it is efficacy. Physical distancing doesn't come with the same supply issues.

Re: Masks
 

BINGO. I also suspect that if every person in the world doesn't have a mask or access to a mask then Govt officials are reluctant to make it mandatory for all persons outside of their homes to wear one. Sure some businesses are making it mandatory to wear a mask to enter a store or fly etc etc and if I wish to use these then I either wear a mask or denied that service. I have a mask so prepared to wear one when required when outside my home.

Re: Masks
 

I've long accepted your opinions are different to mine. There is nothing wrong with that.
But as others have observed, that's not what you said.

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This is one of the greatest misconceptions of the lockdown/social isolation protocols. It's the same misunderstanding as those who think that the Y2K thing was all an overstated damp squib. Success is measured by the absence of being overwhelmed. If the health service is coping, then the preventive measures are working. By further analogy to the millennium bug, the very reason that planes didn't fall out of the sky or the banking system collapse in chaos was that tens of thousands of hours of effort had gone into ensuring that preventive measures were in place before the event. So the lack of catastrophe, while it didn't make for an interesting news story, was the clearest measure of success that the IT industry could have hoped for.

With reference to your comments about Quebec. I think reopening too widely and too soon will potentially prove far more damaging to the economy than the short term impact (albeit a harsh impact for those directly affected) of closing some workplaces. Sadly, only time will tell.

I think Bristol and AX have answered the rest of your post. You are of course, for the moment, free to disagree and act accordingly. But I strongly suspect that the weight of evidence will move against your position as more research is carried out and the results published.

Re: Masks
 

The vast majority of my posts above resulted from Siouxie's comment that I appeared to be unable to accept different opinions to the one I hold. From then on, each time I attempted to address an issue that I hadn't previously commented about, I was asked to comment about other issues,

Your analogy of Y2K only works if you are able to show that those that didn't make the preparations suffered consequences as a result of their failure to do so. In the current situation, we are able to demonstrate that there are jurisdictions where lockdowns were not ordered and whose healthcare systems have not been overwhelmed. We can all debate forever and a day about what would have happened had the lockdown not taken place and, if others wish to, I am happy for them to do so, but I have no interest in doing so.

The healthcare system relies upon funds to operate. Decimating one's tax base means that one will not have the funds necessary. We won't be able to sell bonds to China for forever and a day and, if we do, the cost of doing so will be enormous. Can you imagine how the market in government bonds is going to require the returns to investors to increase massively?

Someone will have to explain to me why it is fine to be able to shop at Costco, but not to be able to purchase a coffee from a coffee shop (not a drive through) on the way home. If it is OK to keep a distance at Costco, why not at the coffee shop? (I am not asking you specifically so there is no need for a "...I don't make policy..." response).

The whole "this is essential; that is not essential" appears to be B/S. Pot being essential - really?

I can't see how the world can avoid the vast majority of its inhabitants getting infected unless, of course, a vaccine is produced and can be administered to the entire world within a relatively short period of time, which doesn't appear to be remotely achievable. It appears that, for most, getting infected doesn't cause any real issues to them so why not isolate those that are vulnerable, rather than those that aren't?

I don't doubt that and, in fact, I said as much above. The point is: governments around the world are stating that they are basing their decisions upon "science" and are not producing the science upon which their decisions are, apparently, being made.

I still believe that washing one's hands and avoiding touching one's face are far more important that wearing a mask when not in close proximity to another.

I am absolutely horrified by the ease with which people are accepting the restrictions being imposed upon them, with minimal objection, and are then reacting with venom against those that suggest the current situation may be completely disproportionate to the risks that the vast majority of the world is facing.

FWIW, my life is continuing pretty much as normal. My income has not been massively reduced and I am able to work almost as much as I did previously while, as I stated in another thread, replacing huge tracts of fencing at my residence. I am not stating anything as a so called frothing loon who is penniless as a result of a despotic government but I am noticing that governments are using the fear that has been produced to do things they wouldn't dare to do during regular times.

Re: Masks
 

You don't believe you are infected ....? What if you are? What if you a asymptomatic but infectious? Wearing a mask would reduce the chance of your droplets/breath infecting someone else.

To be considerate and respectful of all those around you, why would you not wear a mask?

Re: Masks
 

I have not been within 6 feet (which, as you likely aware, is a distance that has no scientific basis either) for well over a month. I live on 20 acres and wash my hands every 5 minutes. Exactly how have I become infected?

Buy into the hysteria all you want to, but don't expect others to follow you.

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:goodpost:

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As you likely know, that comment was nothing to do with virus transmission and was simply an example of how some people do not observe general niceties and as many others have observed not everybody observes the advice specific to virus transmission.

Hysteria. :rolleyes: 30,000deaths in the UK. 75,000 deaths in the USA. 4,000 in Canada. 264,000 worldwide. Additional deaths. Extra to those that would normally have happened.

So you're going to sneeze onto whatever you're carrying - if it's not too heavy or bulky to lift and you're never taken by surprise. :rofl:
And then what are you going to do with the splattered items you're carrying? :rolleyes:

How does your comment that you've not been within 6 feet of anyone and can't be infected square with
How do you enter/exit and not pass someone sitting in a seat, the furthest point of which is about 3' away? How do you know that you didn't just sit in a sit that was just occupied by someone else or you didn't touch a rail that was just held onto by someone else? Up to 72 hours, depending on he surface, is the time research has shown the virus can survive for. That's why people have been advised to avoid touching door handles and elevator buttons.

You've not passed documents between you and clients? The others in your household, can you guarantee they've not picked it up from surfaces or contacts from other people? You've had no mail delivery? You wiped down every square inch of grocery items that may have been 'contaminated' by a number of people before you and you can guarantee that you and nobody else in the house touched such a surface or if they did they can absolutely guarantee they washed hands before touching their face or absent-mindedly touched another surface so that hand washing might only delay transmission.

All those are ways the virus can be passed on. If you can guarantee it hasn't happened among the members of your household, then you have likely been pretty obsessive in precaution taking. :sneaky:

A couple of weeks ago I asked you "As a diabetic yourself and therefore more susceptible to a more severe reaction, is that what you and your family are doing? They can go about their normal business while you decide whether you want to isolate yourself from the increased potential of them bringing something back into your home?"

Your answer
That all looks rather complacent.

Re: Masks
 

Once again, you are changing the context. I was responding to a discussion about masks, not deaths or infections.

I don't carry anything, I pull a counsel's case and I don't believe that I have ever sneezed without having some form of warning that it was going to happen.

Well, I wouldn't smear them against a handrail, if that is what you are suggesting.

When I have ever said I can't be infected? If you wish to make an argument, please stop twisting everything I have said.

I have been taking the C-train to work in Calgary. Each time I have done so, there have been about 3 other people on the carriage (lack of people going to work) and people have been keeping away from each other, exiting and entering without a need to pass anyone. I get the train in the morning at around 5:45 a.m. and have been leaving around 1:30 p.m.

I clean every seat before I sit on it and, if I need to touch a handrail or push a button, I clean my hands with sanitizer immediately after having done so (I carry one and wipes in my pocket).

No

Yes, this is actually quite easy, I suggest you try it.

No. There are wonderful things called Epost and email.

I thought we were talking about mask wearing. We like to be responsible for our own safety and not rely upon others.

I will ignore the judgement call.

I would have assumed that any infection my daughter may have received would have passed on to me by now and, if so, I am no longer contagious.

Don't forget, I stated that I believed, I didn't state that I wasn't. I am sure you will appreciate the difference and, in the big scheme of things, I believe that the likelihood of anyone being infected purely as a result of my non-mask wearing is so small so as not to be an issue. Others must agree with me as, with the exception of those that look of Asian descent and very old people, very few that I see out and about are wearing masks. If the various governments had seemed it sufficiently necessary, I would have thought that they would have already made it mandatory in day to day life. I fully appreciate that certain situations justify such action.

In anticipation that you will continue to sift through everything that has been said in this post and attempt to "expose" me once again, I shall now bow out from this discussion as it has moved too far away from my original comments and I see no useful purpose in continuing to discuss this issue here. I am not going to change your opinion and you are not going to change mind and, as I stated above, I suggest we leave it there.

Re: Masks
 

Well, you initially said you didn't believe you were infected. You followed that with with stuff about how you have maintained distances, live miles away from anywhere etc and then asked "Exactly how have I become infected?" meaning you don't believe you could be.

That's a clear indication that in your view you could not have become infected.

Re: Masks
 

I wont take transit for the foreseeable future.

Right now you can most of the day keep distance if on the skytrain, but its impossible to social distance on the bus.

Will be a bit interesting as restrictions are relaxed in the next couple weeks, and people start commuting again how things go. Right now ridership is lower but each week there are more and more on the buses, and its simply not possible to be 6 feet away from anyone on a bus.

Translink is also cutting service due to loss of revenue, and its unknown if they will go back to a full schedule right away, so could be less service + increase in passengers.

I don't feel comfortable sitting on a bus in these times that close to other people, although I would consider the skytrain right now if we lived near a station as it seems possible to maintain distance on the trains.

Re: Masks
 

Quite a nice informative article that tries, I think, to debunk to mask questions


https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...d-of-face-mask