London shooting

Old Mar 27th 2017, 4:56 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by JamesM

It's a radical extremism/ ideology or gorilla war.
It's not real you know...Planet of the Apes.
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Old Mar 27th 2017, 6:31 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Has there been an escape from London Zoo?
Originally Posted by Shard
It's not real you know...Planet of the Apes.


Thank you for being so kind. Luckily it wasn't Novo who spotted it.

Guerrilla is the correct word.

Those Planet of the Apes reboots have been pretty good too.
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Old Mar 27th 2017, 7:28 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
As I was saying in my initial post, im not for the police being armed, i think it will be a sad day when it does happen, but with ever increasing terrorist activity it will.

At present I personally think that the armed police unit of the UK police are way better trained and more skilled than to your average north American cop, so that can only be better for safety of the public, but we are living in a rapidly changing world to what it once was.
In order to consider arming all UK police they would need to be adapting their recruitment 10 years beforehand and doing personality screening for suitability to carry a firearm. You can't just say "as of Monday, you'll all being doing the firearms course and we hope you pass 'cos you have to carry a gun now. And if you don't pass, you've got 6 months to re-take or you'll be out of a job" 😉

The standards of current U.K. Firearms officers are high, and the amount of times they don't shoot is never reported of course, but training, restraint and investigating any other option is high on the agenda. You can't just give thousands of officers a gun, who may have other amazing skill sets but are not at all suited to firearms. I would have been a case in point. Not a chance and also the responsibility that comes with carrying is massive and not for everyone.
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Old Mar 27th 2017, 8:32 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by ann m
In order to consider arming all UK police they would need to be adapting their recruitment 10 years beforehand and doing personality screening for suitability to carry a firearm. You can't just say "as of Monday, you'll all being doing the firearms course and we hope you pass 'cos you have to carry a gun now. And if you don't pass, you've got 6 months to re-take or you'll be out of a job" 😉

The standards of current U.K. Firearms officers are high, and the amount of times they don't shoot is never reported of course, but training, restraint and investigating any other option is high on the agenda. You can't just give thousands of officers a gun, who may have other amazing skill sets but are not at all suited to firearms. I would have been a case in point. Not a chance and also the responsibility that comes with carrying is massive and not for everyone.

Yes i totally agree. Its such a huge transformation and it would never happen over night. I was just saying that there will come a day when it will happen, and as i said it will be a sad day.
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Old Mar 27th 2017, 8:51 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by JamesM
Is it "Islamic"???

Killing people doesn't have anything to do with Islam anymore than blowing up buildings to establish a fully independent Ireland has to do with catholicism or being Irish.

It's a radical extremism/ ideology or guerrilla war.

Do gun owners or the NRA in the US apologise when there is a mass shooting?

I find the whole apologise on behalf of your segregation choice a little hypocritical.
Well unfortunately these terrorists choose Islam as their cause, its as you say Islamic radical extremism. Just like radical IRA chose catholicism to promote their cause of a united Ireland, and some dont even have to be radical, there are many IRA sympathisers out there who actually believe what the IRA did was a just cause! Just like the terrorists that choose Islam as their cause.

I wouldnt call myself particulary religious, but have respect for religion, however it can also produce some dangerously fanatical people who are brainwashed from birth.
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Old Mar 27th 2017, 9:38 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd

I wouldnt call myself particulary religious, but have respect for religion, however it can also produce some dangerously fanatical people who are brainwashed from birth.
Most of these home grown terrorists have had troubled upbringings and become easy targets for the ideology.

The ones brainwashed from birth have generally grown up in places where they have had dictatorships or US and Russian bombs falling around them most of their lives. I have no doubt growing up in a war zone will produce some resentment.

I just think to ask Muslim's to apologise is a little strange. Turkey is a pre-dominantly muslim country. Should one expect a phone call from someone in Turkey apologising for an attack by a British National because he loosely identifies with a religion.

Cat Stevens, the singer became a muslim and changed his name. Perhaps he is the person who should make the phone call?

My understanding is that in the UK the muslim community is actually quite open with intel and are playing their part. I could be wrong here but I don't see how you can stop a lone wolf grabbing a kitchen knife and getting in a car.

I'm not a fan of religion because it is a segregation. A less obvious segregation than skin colour or border.

Last edited by JamesM; Mar 27th 2017 at 9:40 pm.
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Old Mar 28th 2017, 5:34 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by JamesM
Most of these home grown terrorists have had troubled upbringings and become easy targets for the ideology.

The ones brainwashed from birth have generally grown up in places where they have had dictatorships or US and Russian bombs falling around them most of their lives. I have no doubt growing up in a war zone will produce some resentment.

I just think to ask Muslim's to apologise is a little strange. Turkey is a pre-dominantly muslim country. Should one expect a phone call from someone in Turkey apologising for an attack by a British National because he loosely identifies with a religion.

Cat Stevens, the singer became a muslim and changed his name. Perhaps he is the person who should make the phone call?

My understanding is that in the UK the muslim community is actually quite open with intel and are playing their part. I could be wrong here but I don't see how you can stop a lone wolf grabbing a kitchen knife and getting in a car.

I'm not a fan of religion because it is a segregation. A less obvious segregation than skin colour or border.


I hadnt heard about this.... - asking Muslims to apologise??...i agree that this is a little strange and disjointed, as in this case this guy was a crazed lone wolf, who probably had little to do with Islam other than using it as a cause to randomly kill.

We have two examples of terrorism....we have the lone wolf attacker which are just that, and are mentally deranged people anyway and just jumped on the Islamic terrorist bandwagon.

Then the other other example is the organised terror organisations like ISIS which are the ones that are brainwashed from birth to hate everything and everyone that is not Islam. These people are usually from war torn dictatorship countries who sadly know no other way. The variation of this are homegrown organisations within western countries that spew hate speeches whenever and where ever they can, and actually want to go and fight their "cause" with ISIS, these are the most dangerous. This is where peaceful Muslims should get priorities straight and denounce this rather than get bent out of shape about a cartoon someone has drawn of Mohammed.
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Old Mar 28th 2017, 6:10 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
I hadnt heard about this.... - asking Muslims to apologise??...i agree that this is a little strange and disjointed, as in this case this guy was a crazed lone wolf, who probably had little to do with Islam other than using it as a cause to randomly kill.

We have two examples of terrorism....we have the lone wolf attacker which are just that, and are mentally deranged people anyway and just jumped on the Islamic terrorist bandwagon.

Then the other other example is the organised terror organisations like ISIS which are the ones that are brainwashed from birth to hate everything and everyone that is not Islam. These people are usually from war torn dictatorship countries who sadly know no other way. The variation of this are homegrown organisations within western countries that spew hate speeches whenever and where ever they can, and actually want to go and fight their "cause" with ISIS, these are the most dangerous. This is where peaceful Muslims should get priorities straight and denounce this rather than get bent out of shape about a cartoon someone has drawn of Mohammed.
I was with you, for once, until your last sentence. A pretty good explanation of why these attacks have nothing to do with ordinary Muslims. But they should denounce?
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Old Mar 28th 2017, 7:07 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
I wouldnt call myself particulary religious, but have respect for religion, however it can also produce some dangerously fanatical people who are brainwashed from birth.
It's not only fanatics that have been brainwashed. Respect for irrational beliefs is so 20th century.
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Old Mar 28th 2017, 8:15 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Teaandtoday5
I was with you, for once, until your last sentence. A pretty good explanation of why these attacks have nothing to do with ordinary Muslims. But they should denounce?
Yes denounce (or condemn maybe a better word) hate speech from some Muslim Imam's, it does go on, however many seem have other priorities, like denouncing/condemning cartoons of Mohammed, I get that that is blasphemous to the religion, but dont you think hate speech to anyone who is a non Muslim is wrong too?

Although i do realise that some of this could be selective reporting by the media.
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Old Mar 28th 2017, 9:07 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
Yes denounce (or condemn maybe a better word) hate speech from some Muslim Imam's
I don't see that there's an obligation on the Muslim-in-the-street to express an opinion. If I walked into the coffee shop to trade eggs for coffee and the lady there apologized for some madman in another country I'd find that very odd. I'd feel obliged to apologise for Thatcher while some colleagues hung their head in shame over Trump. If there was a Christian in the room he or she would have a litany of paedophiles to account for.

No, we are not collectively to blame for individuals with whom we've had no contact and with whom we can be grouped only by the wildest generalization.

On edit, my wife blames me personally for the potato famine. I thought that was a joke but maybe it isn't!

Last edited by dbd33; Mar 28th 2017 at 9:09 pm.
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Old Mar 29th 2017, 4:20 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
I don't see that there's an obligation on the Muslim-in-the-street to express an opinion. If I walked into the coffee shop to trade eggs for coffee and the lady there apologized for some madman in another country I'd find that very odd. I'd feel obliged to apologise for Thatcher while some colleagues hung their head in shame over Trump. If there was a Christian in the room he or she would have a litany of paedophiles to account for.

No, we are not collectively to blame for individuals with whom we've had no contact and with whom we can be grouped only by the wildest generalization.

On edit, my wife blames me personally for the potato famine. I thought that was a joke but maybe it isn't!
Yes i agree with what your saying there in that why should law abiding Muslims apologise for a madman or infact an entire organisation of hateful people that use Islam to hate?? But on the other hand, why do non Muslims have to put up with protests about a cartoonist who has drawn a caricature of Mohammed?? its not important, it doesnt matter. Hate speech however does.

So my point is IF there is a point to be made, then priorites should be placed on the importance of them.

On the potato famine note - I have 5th generation Canadian (who is from Irish ancestry) that i work with and he personally blames me too amongst other things!! I just laugh it off, and like you, treat it as a joke.
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Old Mar 29th 2017, 4:34 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
This is where peaceful Muslims should get priorities straight and denounce this rather than get bent out of shape about a cartoon someone has drawn of Mohammed.
How do you know who is peaceful & who isn't?

It's a mad-mad world out there.

I say & stick with the 'treat everyone the same as though they are ALL fanatics - race & creed alike', to always expect the unexpected, then you get no surprises.
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Old Mar 29th 2017, 4:37 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
I don't see that there's an obligation on the Muslim-in-the-street to express an opinion. If I walked into the coffee shop to trade eggs for coffee and the lady there apologized for some madman in another country I'd find that very odd. I'd feel obliged to apologise for Thatcher while some colleagues hung their head in shame over Trump. If there was a Christian in the room he or she would have a litany of paedophiles to account for.

No, we are not collectively to blame for individuals with whom we've had no contact and with whom we can be grouped only by the wildest generalization.

On edit, my wife blames me personally for the potato famine. I thought that was a joke but maybe it isn't!

Also, apparently my Irish friend's mother thought I was to blame, at least in part, for the 'black and tans', whoever they were/are.

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd

So my point is IF there is a point to be made, then priorites should be placed on the importance of them.
One of those priorities must surely be freedom of speech, for the protesters (not including violence, obviously), for the cartoonists (even when it is done deliberately to provoke, as in the Charlie Hebdo case) and for ordinary individuals from whatever group who should not have imposed upon them the need to apologise for things that have nothing to do with them.
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Old Mar 29th 2017, 4:43 pm
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Default Re: London shooting

Originally Posted by not2old
How do you know who is peaceful & who isn't?

It's a mad-mad world out there.

I say & stick with the 'treat everyone the same as though they are ALL fanatics - race & creed alike', to always expect the unexpected, then you get no surprises.
We dont of course, but I just think there is a huge imbalance of priorties. On one hand we are supposed be outraged when someone draws a Mohammed cartoon, then on the other hand turn a blind eye to an Imam preaching hate to non Muslims outside a mosque!

Maybe its the same "Muslims" that are outraged about the cartoon that preach the hate too.
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